SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
If he can find it, and a small length at that. Personally, I would either use conduit on the outside wall or wire with 6/2 Romex inside the wall to a 6/50 receptacle and breaker.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Master Thread: Definitive 14-50 NEMA Outlet Guide
- Thread starter gilscales
- Start date
If he can find it, and a small length at that. Personally, I would either use conduit on the outside wall or wire with 6/2 Romex inside the wall to a 6/50 receptacle and breaker.
I'll be doing it hardwired since I found a hardwired charger for $200, which would be the price I'd be paying for materials for just a 14-50 outlet (GFCI breaker and receptacle).
But you are right that the 4/3 might be hard to find. I'd have to get it online it seems, as my local HD doesn't look to sell it by the foot.
4/3 W/GRND NM-B 600V Stranded Black
Specifications : Size AWG : 4, Weight per 1000 ft : 560 lbs, Conductors : 3, Number of Strands : 7, Insulation : PVC, Insulation Thickness : 46 mils, Standards : ASTM B-3 and B-8, UL Standard 83, UL Standard 719, Federal Specification A-A-59544, National Electrical Code, NFPA 70. 2011 Edition...
nassaunationalcable.com
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
I'll be doing it hardwired since I found a hardwired charger for $200, which would be the price I'd be paying for materials for just a 14-50 outlet (GFCI breaker and receptacle).
But you are right that the 4/3 might be hard to find. I'd have to get it online it seems, as my local HD doesn't look to sell it by the foot.
4/3 W/GRND NM-B 600V Stranded Black
Specifications : Size AWG : 4, Weight per 1000 ft : 560 lbs, Conductors : 3, Number of Strands : 7, Insulation : PVC, Insulation Thickness : 46 mils, Standards : ASTM B-3 and B-8, UL Standard 83, UL Standard 719, Federal Specification A-A-59544, National Electrical Code, NFPA 70. 2011 Edition...
You can hardwire 6/2 Romex to your EVSE if it lets you set the charge rate to 40 Amps (50 Amp breaker). In any case, a hardwire will only use a AWG/2 cable assembly
Gauss Guzzler
Safety Score = 42
Sorry, my bad. I was thinking “6/3”. Yeah, 4/3 is fine and maybe available by the foot. Unfortunately 4/2 generally doesn’t exist.
#4 is brutal to work with though, and you sure won’t want to wrestle it into a 14-50.
Funny. I was looking through my county requirements to see if I needed to pull a permit to make a new 240v circuit so I could hardware my charger, and it's pretty clear that I do.
Yet when I was getting quotes from electricians, both of them said a permit wasn't required.
There's no weird language here that would imply I need a permit for a 240v recepticle but not for a hardwire installation is there?
I really would like to do the installation myself, but the documentation needed looks daunting.
General Requirements:
A permit is required for the installation of a new 120 volt or 240 volt circuit.
If the vehicle charger is designed and UL listed to plug into a 120 volt receptacle AND the receptacle is existing, no permit is required. (ref: NEC 625.13).
Documentation Required for Permit:
List applicable codes on cover sheet or site plan sheet.
Site Plan (Drawn to scale)
For site plan information requirements see our posted example
Size be 8 ½ inches x 11 inches minimum. Drawing scale: 1:10 to 1:50 acceptable.
Show location of electric meter, electric panel and new charging station.
Provide cut sheets with nationally recognized testing laboratories (NRTL) listing for all system equipment.
One Line Diagram with conductor and conduit sizes and types.
Conductor size and over-current protection calculations.
Load calc for the electrical panel if a new 240 volt circuit is added.
If the charging station is labeled as “Ventilation Required”, then a ventilation fan per NEC 625.52 (B) is required.
Yet when I was getting quotes from electricians, both of them said a permit wasn't required.
There's no weird language here that would imply I need a permit for a 240v recepticle but not for a hardwire installation is there?
I really would like to do the installation myself, but the documentation needed looks daunting.
General Requirements:
A permit is required for the installation of a new 120 volt or 240 volt circuit.
If the vehicle charger is designed and UL listed to plug into a 120 volt receptacle AND the receptacle is existing, no permit is required. (ref: NEC 625.13).
Documentation Required for Permit:
List applicable codes on cover sheet or site plan sheet.
Site Plan (Drawn to scale)
For site plan information requirements see our posted example
Size be 8 ½ inches x 11 inches minimum. Drawing scale: 1:10 to 1:50 acceptable.
Show location of electric meter, electric panel and new charging station.
Provide cut sheets with nationally recognized testing laboratories (NRTL) listing for all system equipment.
One Line Diagram with conductor and conduit sizes and types.
Conductor size and over-current protection calculations.
Load calc for the electrical panel if a new 240 volt circuit is added.
If the charging station is labeled as “Ventilation Required”, then a ventilation fan per NEC 625.52 (B) is required.
davewill
Active Member
It doesn't matter whether it's hardwired or an outlet. You generally need a permit for a new circuit. Electricians don't want to quote getting the permit because they will then not have the low bid, so they lie and say a permit is not needed. I swear more lie than tell the truth on this subject. Since the electrician doesn't face any consequences for not getting the permit in most places (just the homeowner), it will go on.
Just purchased a M3 SR. First ever EV. I am going to ask my all-in-one guy to install a 14-50 receptacle in my garage. I am glad I somehow stumbled upon this thread. If not, I would have probably bought the cheap $10-$12 ones. This one (Legrand Pass & Seymour) even has "EV" on the item name but it is still not recommended, correct? Is Bryant 9450FR still the best bang for the buck I guess? That is still $49 compared to $21 it was a few years ago (when this thread was started 
).
Also, I assume I will need to buy 6/4 wire for these. Something like this? I am trying to find the equivalent of this in Lowes (to use some of my gift cards) and I cant find any 6/4 wire in Lowes. Only found this ($7 per feet) but it says 6/3 even though there are 4 wires in it? Super confusing since other 6/3 are usually $2-$3 range per feet.
I guess I should also get a electrical box and cover to host the receptacle? Are these good ones?
Thanks in advance!
).Also, I assume I will need to buy 6/4 wire for these. Something like this? I am trying to find the equivalent of this in Lowes (to use some of my gift cards) and I cant find any 6/4 wire in Lowes. Only found this ($7 per feet) but it says 6/3 even though there are 4 wires in it? Super confusing since other 6/3 are usually $2-$3 range per feet.
I guess I should also get a electrical box and cover to host the receptacle? Are these good ones?
Thanks in advance!
6/3 wire actually has 3 conductors and 1 ground. So it is 4 wires total
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
As others mentioned the number behind excludes the ground, so 6/3 actually has 4 wires total and is all you need for a 14-50.Just purchased a M3 SR. First ever EV. I am going to ask my all-in-one guy to install a 14-50 receptacle in my garage. I am glad I somehow stumbled upon this thread. If not, I would have probably bought the cheap $10-$12 ones. This one (Legrand Pass & Seymour) even has "EV" on the item name but it is still not recommended, correct? Is Bryant 9450FR still the best bang for the buck I guess? That is still $49 compared to $21 it was a few years ago (when this thread was started
Also, I assume I will need to buy 6/4 wire for these. Something like this? I am trying to find the equivalent of this in Lowes (to use some of my gift cards) and I cant find any 6/4 wire in Lowes. Only found this ($7 per feet) but it says 6/3 even though there are 4 wires in it? Super confusing since other 6/3 are usually $2-$3 range per feet.
I guess I should also get a electrical box and cover to host the receptacle? Are these good ones?
Thanks in advance!
If you are buying an industrial Bryant or Hubbell outlet, note the faceplate is a different size than standard ones. I detail faceplate options here:
Master Thread: Definitive 14-50 NEMA Outlet Guide
FYI, for anyone buying the Hubbell 9450A or the Bryant 9450FR receptacles (which is what I did at Grainger, given it's much less expensive for essentially the same part) note that Leviton does make a clone of the SS701 face plate for the larger non-standard 2.465" diameter hole. SS701-40 Given...
teslamotorsclub.com
There is a lot to consider here.Just purchased a M3 SR. First ever EV. I am going to ask my all-in-one guy to install a 14-50 receptacle in my garage. I am glad I somehow stumbled upon this thread. If not, I would have probably bought the cheap $10-$12 ones. This one (Legrand Pass & Seymour) even has "EV" on the item name but it is still not recommended, correct? Is Bryant 9450FR still the best bang for the buck I guess? That is still $49 compared to $21 it was a few years ago (when this thread was started
Also, I assume I will need to buy 6/4 wire for these. Something like this? I am trying to find the equivalent of this in Lowes (to use some of my gift cards) and I cant find any 6/4 wire in Lowes. Only found this ($7 per feet) but it says 6/3 even though there are 4 wires in it? Super confusing since other 6/3 are usually $2-$3 range per feet.
I guess I should also get a electrical box and cover to host the receptacle? Are these good ones?
Thanks in advance!
A Wall Connector is $475 and requires only a 60A non-GFCI circuit breaker and one less wire. It also allows up to 50% faster charging (48 amps vs. 32 amps for the Mobile Connector). Your Model 3 is limited to 32 amps, but this would benefit other Teslas or EVs that may be charged here in the future. You may also qualify for up to a 30% tax credit and may qualify for other credits (I got a $250 rebate from my electric company - and this rebate does not apply to the Mobile Connector).
A Mobile Connector is $230, but you may need a much more expensive GFCI circuit breaker depending on your local code requirements and should use one even if it is not yet required by code in your area.
Yes - the Bryant 9450FR is the "best bang for the buck" - there's no reason to choose the functionally identical Hubbell over the Bryant.
Personally, I recommend a Wall Connector at home and a Mobile Connector to keep with you "just in case" (I use my Mobile Connector to charge at free-to-me locations around town).
Last edited:
I'd like some sanity check myself.
I plan to hardwire a charger in my garage, and my electric panel is on the same garage wall, but on the outside of the house.
My plan was to just drill a hole directly through the panel to my garage, less than 2 feet of cable, but there is no stud at the location.
So to avoid having to cut too much drywall, I decided to get a MC 6/2 cable, which is metallic conductive. Similar to Romex (Non-metallic), I believe I can run this through drywall with no conduit. But I believe it can ALSO be run inside my garage on the surface of my drywall without a conduit.
So my plan is to drill a hole directly from my panel and then route the MC along the surface of my drywall to where a stud is, and hardwire it from the bottom knockout of the EVSE. Less than 5 feet of cable.
In addition, it seems MC 6 awg is rated for a 48A constant load, while the Romex (NM-B) is not.
Is there any specific reason MC isn't recommended more than Romex? Seems I've seen threads where people opt for Romex 4 awg instead of just using MC 6 awg
I plan to hardwire a charger in my garage, and my electric panel is on the same garage wall, but on the outside of the house.
My plan was to just drill a hole directly through the panel to my garage, less than 2 feet of cable, but there is no stud at the location.
So to avoid having to cut too much drywall, I decided to get a MC 6/2 cable, which is metallic conductive. Similar to Romex (Non-metallic), I believe I can run this through drywall with no conduit. But I believe it can ALSO be run inside my garage on the surface of my drywall without a conduit.
So my plan is to drill a hole directly from my panel and then route the MC along the surface of my drywall to where a stud is, and hardwire it from the bottom knockout of the EVSE. Less than 5 feet of cable.
In addition, it seems MC 6 awg is rated for a 48A constant load, while the Romex (NM-B) is not.
Is there any specific reason MC isn't recommended more than Romex? Seems I've seen threads where people opt for Romex 4 awg instead of just using MC 6 awg
Attachments
Last edited:
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
This article goes into detail on the limitations of MC. Other than using it in damp locations (without a PVC outer coating), there doesn't seem to be much major ones.
In general of the same size, I think it just comes down to cost and ease of running (MC is bulkier and heavier). For in-wall applications, MC isn't really necessary and is harder to run. For exposed applications, it's ugly and EMT is likely the same or less cost and much better looking and more durable. MC is like a middling option.
For specifically 4 AWG Romex vs 6 AWG MC, I think most owners would prefer 4 AWG as it would run less hot and be slightly more efficient, although it's tougher to work with (probably will need a bigger outlet box to have room to wrangle the wires in place). I should note 4 AWG is not necessary for the 14-50, only if you are considering a Wall Connector.
In general of the same size, I think it just comes down to cost and ease of running (MC is bulkier and heavier). For in-wall applications, MC isn't really necessary and is harder to run. For exposed applications, it's ugly and EMT is likely the same or less cost and much better looking and more durable. MC is like a middling option.
For specifically 4 AWG Romex vs 6 AWG MC, I think most owners would prefer 4 AWG as it would run less hot and be slightly more efficient, although it's tougher to work with (probably will need a bigger outlet box to have room to wrangle the wires in place). I should note 4 AWG is not necessary for the 14-50, only if you are considering a Wall Connector.
Thanks for the reply. True that 6/3 actually has 4 wires like you said (lowes link here). And 6/4 also has the same 4 wires (hd link here)? Are they essentially the same? And just a naming semantics?As others mentioned the number behind excludes the ground, so 6/3 actually has 4 wires total and is all you need for a 14-50.
If you are buying an industrial Bryant or Hubbell outlet, note the faceplate is a different size than standard ones. I detail faceplate options here:
Master Thread: Definitive 14-50 NEMA Outlet Guide
FYI, for anyone buying the Hubbell 9450A or the Bryant 9450FR receptacles (which is what I did at Grainger, given it's much less expensive for essentially the same part) note that Leviton does make a clone of the SS701 face plate for the larger non-standard 2.465" diameter hole. SS701-40 Given...
Thanks, will review the faceplate options. Still trying to wrap around the diameter required for 9450FR vs the cheap ones
Also, does the 9450FR withstand frequent plug in/out? Say once a week? Or once a month? Just trying to get an understanding on the benefits of these expensive ones : )
Thank you for the response. I did consider the Wall connector option. We (Utah) do have a rebate for up to $200 for charger installation (from rocky mountain power). But it does not include any of the tesla chargers. Neither the wall connector nor the mobile connector (list link here)
. Unless I am not looking at the list correctly?30% tax credit for charger expenses? Thats news to me. Is it this one? So, basically $475 for wall connector plus say $325 for installation, totaling to $800, I could get $240 in tax credit? Is this also available only for wall connector and not for mobile connector?
Thanks again for the friendly and quick response guys! Really really appreciate it!
This article goes into detail on the limitations of MC. Other than using it in damp locations (without a PVC outer coating), there doesn't seem to be much major ones.
In general of the same size, I think it just comes down to cost and ease of running (MC is bulkier and heavier). For in-wall applications, MC isn't really necessary and is harder to run. For exposed applications, it's ugly and EMT is likely the same or less cost and much better looking and more durable. MC is like a middling option.
For specifically 4 AWG Romex vs 6 AWG MC, I think most owners would prefer 4 AWG as it would run less hot and be slightly more efficient, although it's tougher to work with (probably will need a bigger outlet box to have room to wrangle the wires in place). I should note 4 AWG is not necessary for the 14-50, only if you are considering a Wall Connector.
Thanks. Haha, I actually ended up receiving 10ft of it and I found it pretty flexible and workable and not any more ugly than PVC or emt conduit. Going to try and do the final installation in a week or so, but gonna spend some time making sure I understand and installation nuances (for example, using anti shorting bushings).
And yeah, my evse has 48A capability so I just decided to go for the max since my cable length is so short. I doubt I'll actually be using that max on a regular basis.
If it has full size brass contacts to the plug blades (look into the plug blade holes), it will reduce the risk of the overheating-at-the-plug issues that are often found with Leviton 279-S00 receptacles that have half size steel contacts.Just purchased a M3 SR. First ever EV. I am going to ask my all-in-one guy to install a 14-50 receptacle in my garage. I am glad I somehow stumbled upon this thread. If not, I would have probably bought the cheap $10-$12 ones. This one (Legrand Pass & Seymour) even has "EV" on the item name but it is still not recommended, correct? Is Bryant 9450FR still the best bang for the buck I guess? That is still $49 compared to $21 it was a few years ago (when this thread was started
The main advantage of the Bryant 9450FR over most non-Leviton-279-S00 receptacles is that the wire clamping mechanism is easier to install correctly than the screw down wire clamping of most receptacles. But screw down wire clamping can be installed well if you are careful.
Note that the Bryant 9650FR (6-50) has screw down wire clamping, so it does not have the better wire clamping mechanism that is an advantage of the Bryant 9450FR.
Note also that the Leviton 279-S00 has a compact size that fits in smaller receptacle boxes. Many other 14-50 and 6-50 receptacles are larger and require larger receptacle boxes (or box extensions if replacing an existing Leviton 279-S00).
n2mb_racing
Active Member
Just don't use the cooper 5754N. It failed on me after a few years. It should be taken off the list.
that's great that the Bryant Electric 9450FR is back on Amazon for relatively cheap. I had to get it from Grainger on ebay replace my failed Cooper outlet.
that's great that the Bryant Electric 9450FR is back on Amazon for relatively cheap. I had to get it from Grainger on ebay replace my failed Cooper outlet.
Right. I do see from previous posts that Leviton 14-50 is an absolute no-no. But Legrand Pass is slightly better than Leviton but significantly worser than Bryant. So probably not worth saving $30 I guess
Actually, receptacles with screw down wire clamps can be installed well if you are careful, in which case they are plenty good if they have full size brass contacts to the plug blades.Right. I do see from previous posts that Leviton 14-50 is an absolute no-no. But Legrand Pass is slightly better than Leviton but significantly worser than Bryant. So probably not worth saving $30 I guess
It seems that the common orthodox belief on this forum is that there only Bryant and Hubbell receptacles are good, but there are really finer distinctions:
- Bryant 9450FR and Hubbell 9450A for 14-50: full size brass plug contacts, wire clamping that is easy to install correctly.
- Most receptacles for 14-50 and 6-50 (including Bryant 9650FR for 6-50): full size brass plug contacts, screw down wire clamping that requires careful installation.
- Leviton 279-S00 for 14-50 and 5374 for 6-50: half size steel contacts that have a higher risk of overheating, screw down wire clamping that requires careful installation.
n2mb_racing
Active Member
I don't know. I had the cooper outlet and no matter how hard I clamped down the wires with those screw terminals, it still overheated and dropped my current down to 16A. I guess something wore out or oxidized on the wipers? Not sure.
Similar threads
