Model 3 performance new 18 inch wheel option now avail 7/15/19

[Knightshade]

Still supports the point that the tires and brakes = unimpressive.

It doesn't though- because the brakes make no actual difference to the stopping distance.

Folks wanting to save $5000 but concerned about stopping distance can just spend ~20% of their savings on swapping PS4s tires onto the aeros and get equal stopping distance with lighter and less-easy-to-damage wheels.

They'll still have ~$4000 extra dollars compared to the P3D+ folks.

And let me say as a Performance owner that saved 1.2 seconds will put a HUGE smile on your face every time you punch it.

It's more like 0.8 seconds if actually comparing using the same testing method (which Tesla, dishonestly, does not do with their posted specs- instead they use a different method for P cars versus non-P to make the P look better in comparison)

It's still noticeably faster from a stop obviously, just not quite as much as Tesla would like you to think.

 

[WilliamG]

I was responding specifically to your continued claim that the upgraded brakes will stop the car faster in an emergency than the standard brakes. That claim has been thoroughly debunked right here. It's false.

However, if what you're worried about is that you convinced your significant other it was OK to spend $5000 extra on the Performance Upgrade package because the brakes would stop faster in an emergency and your family was worth the extra money, no worries, I'm not going to tell her you were wrong or that you could have saved thousands of dollars by simply upgrading to Performance tires. It can be our little secret.

No secret. Quite happy I spent the extra. I find the 18s to be a travesty, visually, despite their apparent range increase. I wouldn’t live with them.

For $5K you’re getting a lot of goodies, and I have zero regrets. Others may not see it the same way, but you’re not getting the package aftermarket for under $5K.

Anyway, I’ve not seen anything debunked that shows the P3D+ doesn’t stop faster than the regular models, even with upgraded 18” tires. Link?

 

[Knightshade]

Anyway, I’ve not seen anything debunked that shows the P3D+ doesn’t stop faster than the regular models, even with upgraded 18” tires. Link?

I already provided it. You obviously didn't read it though.

no modern car (with properly working factory brakes)can stop faster with bigger brakes... because the brakes don't stop the car- the tires do.


Here's the formula for stopping distance=

d=v^2/2(u)(g)

d=stopping distance
v=velocity of car
u=coefficient of friction between tire and road
g= acceleration due to gravity (~9.8 m/s^2 on earth)

Notice how it cares about your tires, but doesn't even ASK about your brakes?


Again I'd strongly encourgae you to read the pulp friction link posted earlier.

The author teaches SAE master classes on brake system design, has written books on the topic, and has designed braking systems for Stoptech, Ford, and others.

it explains in detail what each piece of the braking system does, and does not, do- why you might wish to upgrade any of them- and, ultimately, why none of those upgrades can reduce your original factory stopping distance.... but that the only way to do so is stickier tires.

 

[VQTRVA]

Looks like they brought back the sleeper (P3D-) option stated 18 inch wheels avail on special request.
I called and confirmed you loose: 20 inch wheels/performance brakes/alum pedals/carbon spoiler/susp upgrade.
Confirmed you can subtract $5000.00 from build if choosing this option.

You can now get a brand new performance sleeper for $49,990 before any rebates.

Does this include Doc & Destination Fees - line items on the MVPA?

 

[WilliamG]

I already provided it. You obviously didn't read it though.

no modern car (with properly working factory brakes)can stop faster with bigger brakes... because the brakes don't stop the car- the tires do.


Here's the formula for stopping distance=

d=v^2/2(u)(g)

d=stopping distance
v=velocity of car
u=coefficient of friction between tire and road
g= acceleration due to gravity (~9.8 m/s^2 on earth)

Notice how it cares about your tires, but doesn't even ASK about your brakes?


Again I'd strongly encourgae you to read the pulp friction link posted earlier.

The author teaches SAE master classes on brake system design, has written books on the topic, and has designed braking systems for Stoptech, Ford, and others.

it explains in detail what each piece of the braking system does, and does not, do- why you might wish to upgrade any of them- and, ultimately, why none of those upgrades can reduce your original factory stopping distance.... but that the only way to do so is stickier tires.

Stolen from the Internet:

From Zeckhausen Racing: You are being redirected... (a brake specialist who frequently posts on the M3 Track: Racing and DE forum):

Why Upgrade your Brakes?

Big brakes give your car greater resistance to fade by absorbing and shedding heat more efficiently. Racers upgrade because stock brakes were designed for a single stop from high speed, not repeated slow-downs with little time in between to cool off. For fade resistance, size really does matter. On the street, fixed-mount, multi-piston calipers give a firmer pedal and quicker reaction time in panic stops. As little as 0.2 second reduction in reaction time can translate into 21 feet of stopping distance at 70 mph. Reaction time is not as important to racers who can compensate by braking earlier. But on the street, in an unexpected stop, quicker reaction time can save your life. You don't need to be a racer to benefit from brake upgrades.

 

[kdhsurf83]

I purchased a LR AWD Model 3 only 3 weeks ago and now it looks like the P3- is the same price or lower as others have said. Maybe those affected should all tweet Musk and Tesla to see if an update / upgrade will be made available. From what I have read here it does seem like an over the air update would be possible. Any thoughts on how to band together so Tesla is aware of the demand for such a change?

 

[Urbancowboy]

The only other possibility is that the binning of parts were so successful that over 90% met the specs for performance. Or it could be higher than that. In any case, there could be a very small percentage of AWD out there that don't meet the spec for Performance. Rather than put the parts that tested to a lower spec in the recycle bin, they mark them so they can never be used for a Performance conversion (from AWD to Performance). They don't want to give this 1-10 % of the parts a different part number (because then some AWD owners would feel short-changed), they just need to ensure they never flash those into Performance versions. This explains why all part numbers are the same (didn't want to piss off those AWD owners who got the lower spec parts).

If this possibility is the correct interpretation, then Tesla will never offer AWD to Performance upgrades to people who already own AWD's (because they wouldn't be able to offer the upgrade to every AWD owner and this would not be fair to those who received the lower binned components). But they can flash most new/unsold AWD's into Performance because they will only do if the AWD is not on the list disqualifying them from being a Performance spec Model 3. This way Tesla doesn't have to throw away parts that would heat up too much with the additional current of a Performance spec Model 3 running through them (because they will work reliably at lower current levels). Such is the nature of manufactured power electronics.

The best possibility at this point is to treat Elon’s binning tweet the same as his tweet about basic white being the standard paint color, and the one about appreciating assets, and the one about...

 

[WilliamG]

The best possibility at this point is to treat Elon’s binning tweet the same as his tweet about basic white being the standard paint color, and the one about appreciating assets, and the one about...

It does feel that way doesn’t it...

 

[Knightshade]

Stolen from the Internet:

From Zeckhausen Racing: You are being redirected... (a brake specialist who frequently posts on the M3 Track: Racing and DE forum):

Why Upgrade your Brakes?

Big brakes give your car greater resistance to fade by absorbing and shedding heat more efficiently. Racers upgrade because stock brakes were designed for a single stop from high speed, not repeated slow-downs with little time in between to cool off. For fade resistance, size really does matter. On the street, fixed-mount, multi-piston calipers give a firmer pedal and quicker reaction time in panic stops. As little as 0.2 second reduction in reaction time can translate into 21 feet of stopping distance at 70 mph. Reaction time is not as important to racers who can compensate by braking earlier. But on the street, in an unexpected stop, quicker reaction time can save your life. You don't need to be a racer to benefit from brake upgrades.

Yes- they're lying. Your reaction time for a panic stop is the time it takes you to move your foot to the pedal and nail it- what kind of rotors or calipers you have makes no difference whatsoever to that.... and I'd hope that'd be obvious.


They're also trying to sell you brakes of course.

Coincidence? Probably not.

And even then reading between the lines they're admitting bigger brakes don't really help unless you're making repeated high speed stops back to back to back without ever cooling them down... which doesn't happen in street use, but can happen on a race track.

And even then the bigger brakes won't, and can't ever stop you shorter than the stock brakes did the first time... they can simply keep stopping in that same distance on repeated hot-lap stops instead of getting longer as you overheat the brakes.



if you want more honest takes on the topic, well, you can read the link I provided for the science... or you can look to more honest brake sellers-

Brembo FAQ-

Where can I find test data on stopping distances? | Race Technologies | Brembo Official Partner

At the speeds that stopping distance is generally measured from (60 to 70mph), the test is primarily testing the tire's grip on the pavement. As delivered from the manufacturer, nearly all vehicles are able to engage the ABS or lock the wheels at these speeds. Therefore, an increase in braking power will do nothing to stop the vehicle in a shorter distance. For this reason, we do not record stopping distances at this time.

(bold added)


APC Whitepaper (owner of Centric and Stoptech)

https://www.apcautotech.com/getmedi...e-Systems-and-Upgrade-Selections_8-2018_1.pdf

braking distance measured on a single stop from a highway legal speed or higher is almost totally dependent upon the stopping ability of the tires in use

 

[TORQU3]

One thing to consider is there is likely a measurable difference in the time and user applied force it takes to ramp up the brake clamping force from 0 to overpowering the friction of the tires. It may be small, but I'm sure it's measurable.

But I fully agree, as long as your brakes can overpower the tires, the tires are really the dominant factor in stopping distance for non repeating stops such as a panic stop.

 

[ElectricLee]

I scheduled a firmware update for next week!

 

[JamesBrown]

I find it hard to believe that the M3P- without the 20" Performance tires will have the same 0-60 as the M3P+ with.

It won't have the same 0-60 as the M3P+. With the exact same tires and less unsprung mass, it will have a faster 0-60 than the M3P+.

 

[caskater47]

It's a pretty simple choice. If you are going to track the car then the Performance Package with larger brakes and 20" wheels is worth it. However you'll still want to replace the wheels and rotors with better stuff if you'll be having repeated track days.

If you aren't going to track the car you don't need it. The standard brakes and wheels are perfectly fine. Also, they will service you just fine even for a single track day. I've met multiple folks at Tesla Corsa who don't have a Performance. If this is you, save the money and buy better wheels for less than 5k.

 

[TJ73]

I scheduled a firmware update for next week!

So.... they are uncorking existing AWD cars now?

 

[JamesBrown]

Stolen from the Internet:

From Zeckhausen Racing: You are being redirected... (a brake specialist who frequently posts on the M3 Track: Racing and DE forum):

Why Upgrade your Brakes?

Big brakes give your car greater resistance to fade by absorbing and shedding heat more efficiently. Racers upgrade because stock brakes were designed for a single stop from high speed, not repeated slow-downs with little time in between to cool off. For fade resistance, size really does matter. On the street, fixed-mount, multi-piston calipers give a firmer pedal and quicker reaction time in panic stops. As little as 0.2 second reduction in reaction time can translate into 21 feet of stopping distance at 70 mph. Reaction time is not as important to racers who can compensate by braking earlier. But on the street, in an unexpected stop, quicker reaction time can save your life. You don't need to be a racer to benefit from brake upgrades.

Faster response time = shorter overall stopping distance (extremely debatable). It still makes zero difference on the actual braking distance (which is your actual claim). Two cars with the same tires, sames weight, and same speed will have the exact same braking distance. How quickly someone reacts and presses the brake pedal is entirely dependent on the driver and has nothing to do with the brakes. Also you can change the master cylinder and increase brake pedal stiffness without adding a big brake kit. So to your failed point, if someone with a M3 AWD adjusts the master cylinder to have a stiffer peddle feel than a P3D, then it means the AWD with smaller brakes would have a shorter stopping distance.

You are also quoting a website who's business is selling big brake kits. Here is an image to help explain to you the difference between stopping distance and braking distance.

 

[jkwan18]

I scheduled a firmware update for next week!

Can you elaborate? Cost?

 

[kdhsurf83]

Please elaborate. I called in to speak with my sales rep and would really like to know what they have offered you.

I scheduled a firmware update for next week!

 

[Urbancowboy]

Please elaborate. I called in to speak with my sales rep and would really like to know what they have offered you.

+949

Sign the Petition

 

[Schroeder0202]

Please elaborate. I called in to speak with my sales rep and would really like to know what they have offered you.

You can make a service appt for anything on your app. If i wanted to get a Oil change done on my app I could just note that and set a date. Once an advisor reviews the appt it would clearly be cancelled. They are not going to be doing free updates for AWD model and just updating them.

 

[JamesBrown]

The best possibility at this point is to treat Elon’s binning tweet the same as his tweet about basic white being the standard paint color, and the one about appreciating assets, and the one about...

Just a FYI, he corrected his basic white tweet. It was his plan to make basic white the default color, but after running the cost/benefit analysis they found that adding another color would cost more due to extra costs due to manufacturing/service increases.
Elon Musk on Twitter