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Model 3P-D 0-60 prediction?
- Thread starter Mayhem
- Start date
Presumably, the P variant of the Model 3 is going to get the same or a smaller engine in the front, so it's going to be at a substantial horsepower disadvantage to either P100D. That said, anything in the 2.7-3.3 range would still leave an M3 in the rear view and the fact the Model 3 can actually use the power on a track without overheating puts it in a separate class than the Model S right from the start. Artificially holding the Model P3 back isn't going to push anyone who wanted a competent track car to the Model S.
It would be more to Tesla's advantage to slap some higher performance parts on there (definitely needs better brakes) and up the price enough to command a decent margin.
It would be more to Tesla's advantage to slap some higher performance parts on there (definitely needs better brakes) and up the price enough to command a decent margin.
The judge listens to prosecution first. The cop says you were street racing. You can cross. Now you can defend yourself. You say you weren't. The prosecution won't even bother with cross. Guilt or innocence doesn't come into play.
I have the T-Shirt.
Dan Detweiler
Active Member
I think the percentage of people buying a Performance Model 3 or Model S for the purpose of putting it on the track is minuscule in the grand scheme of the things. I think less than 10% of customers will be disappointed with acceleration regardless of what it ends up being. Functional every day acceleration will be light years ahead of 99% of anything on the road. Just my $.02 of course.
Dan
I forecast the sale price for my PM3 will be $83,860, the same percentage premium that the present SP100D has over the S100D.
For that I expect range around 340 miles (possibly sandbagged a bit just as is the present M3LR) and performance on 0-60MPH around 2.9 seconds, with passing speeds probably nearly equal to the bigger, older cars. I expect equipment level to be similar to taht of the P100D, with brakes perfectly adequate for street use. It would be absurd to expect the street versions to come with track-capable brake pads and fluid, but those will be easily available aftermarket, in which case the PM3 will handily smoke BMW M3. I'll speculate that Tesla may end out selling the track mods themselves, although I'll be surprised if they do that anytime soon. In handling PM3 will match or exceed all real competitors.
Next week we'll know how much I really pay and what performance to expect.
For that I expect range around 340 miles (possibly sandbagged a bit just as is the present M3LR) and performance on 0-60MPH around 2.9 seconds, with passing speeds probably nearly equal to the bigger, older cars. I expect equipment level to be similar to taht of the P100D, with brakes perfectly adequate for street use. It would be absurd to expect the street versions to come with track-capable brake pads and fluid, but those will be easily available aftermarket, in which case the PM3 will handily smoke BMW M3. I'll speculate that Tesla may end out selling the track mods themselves, although I'll be surprised if they do that anytime soon. In handling PM3 will match or exceed all real competitors.
Next week we'll know how much I really pay and what performance to expect.
McHoffa
CyberOwners
Just the RWD that's out now can hit 60 in 4.6-4.7 on a good day... adding AWD should shave 0.2 seconds off that. I'm sure P will push it into low to mid 3s.
Cost? I'm guessing that like the S, it adds $30k to the AWD version (which should be $54k: $49k + $5k for AWD), so $84k for the P
Me too, a long, long time ago in a place far, far away. I won. Mostly because the judge did not think a 427SC could do 140mph on the Cross Bronx.The judge listens to prosecution first. The cop says you were street racing. You can cross. Now you can defend yourself. You say you weren't. The prosecution won't even bother with cross. Guilt or innocence doesn't come into play.
I have the T-Shirt.
A week later I was ticketed around Tompkins Square Park for "Parts of body protruding". They were, obviously, since she was sitting on the tonneau cover wearing a t-shirt absent undergarments. I challenged that one too, but the officer did not show up. I still have the citation with a photo.
GatorGuy
Member
I'm interested in a P3D as a track car. I would like to see the acceleration as fast as possible and some seats with bolsters. Otherwise, keep the cost as low as possible because everything else can be upgraded aftermarket. Even higher quality than what Tesla would provide.
Thomas Edison
Active Member
That would be disapointing.
EV motors are cheap maybe 5k tops...supension 3k, brakes 2k,... Wheels 3k. What else?
TT97
Active Member
Tesla should make the P3D with the faster acceleration and then create a P3D CP (Competition Package) to focus as a track car with an insane price tag (north of the P100D price). Unfortunately, they have limited resources at the time so it's doubtful they will do that - to take from an old saying - Tesla doesn't need to win on Sunday to sell on Monday!
This will be the first Model 3 Performance version. It will likely be targeting the BMW M3 crowd, so I would expect it to be priced similarly (around $75K) and slightly beat the BMW's 0-60 time of 3.8 - 3.9. Later there will likely be a Ludicrous version that may have sub 3 0-60 times, but I would expect pricing to be pushing $100K, and probably won't happen until after a Model S redesign.
Given Elon has already announced the Model 3 will eventually have Air Suspension and the interior space is very similar to the Model S, I predict one of two things for the Model S (or some combination):
- The Model S redesign will result in significant cost reductions learned from the Model 3 and a corresponding price reduction.
OR
- The Model S redesign will result in a slightly larger interior with a significant improvement in interior quality and luxury features on par with the Mercedes S Class, BMW 7 Series and Audi A8.
As an owner of a SP90DL, unless the Model S either comes down in price or significantly improves interior quality and features I don't see a compelling reason for paying such a huge premium over the Model 3 once it's availability is on par with the Model S.
Given Elon has already announced the Model 3 will eventually have Air Suspension and the interior space is very similar to the Model S, I predict one of two things for the Model S (or some combination):
- The Model S redesign will result in significant cost reductions learned from the Model 3 and a corresponding price reduction.
OR
- The Model S redesign will result in a slightly larger interior with a significant improvement in interior quality and luxury features on par with the Mercedes S Class, BMW 7 Series and Audi A8.
As an owner of a SP90DL, unless the Model S either comes down in price or significantly improves interior quality and features I don't see a compelling reason for paying such a huge premium over the Model 3 once it's availability is on par with the Model S.
Dan Detweiler
Active Member
TT97
Active Member
I hope they don't make the base Roadster a track car, I would like to drive it every day.
GatorGuy
Member
Tesla doesn't know how to make track cars. And personally I don't want them to start. The drivetrain is the one thing that is not easily modifiable so I would like to see them max it. Otherwise, let others who specialize in performance tune it. You'll end up with high quality and for a lower cost.
kingjamez
Member
75kWh is not a "power level", and a 75kWh battery is not a 75kWh battery. kWh is an energy measure and has very little to do with the power output capability of the pack. The Watt is a measure of power, not the Watt hour. Tesla talked about the tradeoff's in the last conference call. It's easy to have a battery that can charge / discharge at 350kW's but it would have a low energy density, meaning it would be heavy for the same pack energy level. So a 75kWh battery that can discharge at 350kW's would weigh significantly more than at 75kWh battery that can discharge at 1/2 the rate.
We don't yet know the C ratings of the 2170's used in the 3. They could be more or less than the Model S.. I suspect that they are less and Tesla made the trade for capacity over maximum discharge rate.
-Jim
Garlan Garner
Banned
While I don't totally agree with what you are saying....I don't want to get into the weeds about this discussion on a forum. The power output of the Model 3 cells have indeed been published and that is partially why I'm making the statements that I have been making.
Another discussion I'm not going to get down in the weeds about is the Model 3's PM ( permanent magnet )motor vs the other models PI ( induction ) motors which is another HUGE contributing factor of my conclusion about 0-60 times. The marriage between the battery and the motor is crucial.
Another contributing factor is that the Model S and X 85Kwh battery contains 7,104 cells and the Model 3 only has 4,416. However the discharge of 7,104 can occur a lot stronger than the discharge of 4,416 cells from a single cell perspective. Not going to get into the weeds about this one as it is pretty self explanatory.
Other contributing factors are thermal runaway and the like of the Model 3's batteries vs the Model S and X batteries. Unlike the Model 3...the rear motor thermal techniques in the model S and X are a travesty which leads to the limited number of "launches" that each vehicle can make in a given period of time because the thermal cooling for the rear motor is shared by the batteries and the inverter. The front motor of the Model S and X have an independent cooling system with is tremendously more efficient - as its probably designed that way due to the fact that the front motor was developed long after the rear only model S and X's.
Again.....Power output of the battery is not the only reason I'm making the statements that I'm making. I don't care how fast the battery can discharge if the motor can't pull its full potential of current out of it....or if the whole system is software limited via software.
What I am confident of is that the battery/motor/inverter/cooling system of the Model 3 is light years ahead of the Model S and X technology. Just look at the components.....the DC-DC converter / inverter / BMS charging / SuperCharger sensing / contactors / thermal breakaway fuse link /battery cells and everything is encased in one unit from the Giga factory on the Model 3. All of this stuff is encased with the battery unit on the top rear of the unit which allows for the whole enchilada to be cooled which increases the possible discharge rates of a battery where thermal runaway has to be closely monitored.
Unlike the Model X and S which has 32 external connections from the battery unit.....the model 3 has only 5 connections from external to the battery Unit to anything else.
1. Charge port wire
2. Front Motor
3. Rear Motor
4. AC unit connection on the front of the battery
5. Heater unit connection on the front of the battery.
That's it.
Anyway.....forgive me for hitting the top of the weeds in this thread, but 75kwh in Tesla language is 75kwh.
So....for those just considering weight and the like as contributing factors of 2 cars with different motors and batteries is not the best thing to use when considering 0-60 times.
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What profit?
Are we talking about Tesla?
Unless Tesla can get more margin out of the Model 3 than the Model S, the Model 3 will *always* be slower than the S.
Chevrolet withholds safety features from lower trim cars - Tesla withholding performance is 100% acceptable and expected.
I'm hoping they are planning on the S refresh to put distance in the value between the 3 & S so they don't have to sandbag the 3 at all. It could be that they offer the P now as slightly slower than the S, then offer the Ludicrous download later to take it to 11. For the S refresh they should:
- Push out the front and rear seats slightly to increase leg room. Eliminate third row option (have the X for that now). Lowers cargo space a bit, but still more than 3.
- Offer higher level trim package to compete with the best of Germany and Japan.
- Switch to 2170 cells and have larger packs available - maybe up to 150 kWh.
- Maybe permanent magnet motors? Not sure of the whole trade-offs there, but I would think they would want to develop a single core competency in that area.
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