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Model S Battery Pack - Cost Per kWh Estimate

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Yeah, I'm changing my viewpoint, but hoping for a joint venture to spread the cost, and risk, and with the assumption that it would not be that difficult or expensive to change the winding machines out if the 18650 format no longer makes sense.
 
At the same time though, I am coming around to the idea that Tesla might just want to aquire Panasonic, or maybe just their battery business. It's one thing to rely on commercial battery providers to take the risks in this space when you are a small player. But Tesla is looking at the possibility that they could be purchasing 50%+ of global 18650 production by 2016 before they even start production on GENIII.

Very nice observation. Certainly they would not be shopping for all of Panasonic, but just the battery part. I think I would maybe rather look to pick up a tier 2 manufacturer on the cheap, and ramp up its production (and quality, if necessary) while still buying from Panasonic.
 
I think I would be concerned if they were not considering it. If building 21K MS' a year (152MM cells) is putting a strain on cell supply can you imagine what 500,000 G3s would do? If that were 4000 cells per car you are looking at 2B cells per year. I'm thinking I would need that line in house to keep it from being my weak link.

I would imagine Tesla wouldn't want to be held "hostage" to a few battery suppliers who could collude in price manipulation. Panasonic was found guilty of this in the past, and I'm confident Elon must be aware of this.

I'm kind of torn about Tesla relying on battery producers vs creating their own factory. Ideally, it'd be most cost efficient if they only ate up a few percent of the world's 18650 supply and then they could rely on battery producers and global supply-demand trends. However, in Tesla's case it seems like the demand for 18650 outside of automakers (namely Tesla right now) is not growing much (ie., laptop sales are not growing fast at all). And with the amount of cells required by the Model S and more so with Gen III, it appears Tesla will be buying up a majority of the world's supply of 18650 batteries in roughly a few years.

This makes the case for a joint venture or for Tesla to create their own factories more compelling.

I wouldn't mind Tesla raising a secondary offering to start a battery factory.
 
Very nice observation. Certainly they would not be shopping for all of Panasonic, but just the battery part. I think I would maybe rather look to pick up a tier 2 manufacturer on the cheap, and ramp up its production (and quality, if necessary) while still buying from Panasonic.

Yes, I started looking at a possible aquisition of Panasonic late last year, and it just seemed unrealistic because of their $16b market cap, vs like $4b for Tesla. Plus the need just didn't seem pressing with upper production estimates of the Model S in the 30k/yr range. But now it all seems more doable, and the need is increasingly pressing.

But my recollection from the brief research I did was that Panasonic as a whole was a bit junky, and probably has all kinds of unexpected baggage that tends to accumulate in Japanese conglomerates. But getting just the battery business might be problematic because that is a bright spot for them, and Tesla has a poor bargaining position. It might be easier to just swallow the whole thing with the intention of breaking it up and only keeping the parts you want.

As to alternatives, the only other large, quality player is Samsung, and they are a $170b mega corporation. Getting just the battery business is a problem because of the same bargaining problem (Tesla needs to buy, Samsung REALLY doesn't need or want to sell).

The other manufacturers suck, with no useful IP or production capacity. Panasonic is ideal, with the best IP and production capacity, an existing relationship with Tesla, and a digestible size. If I were Elon I'd be looking hard at a potential merger using a stock swap.
 
If I were Elon I'd be looking hard at a potential merger using a stock swap.

From what I've read about Panasonic, I think a merger of the two companies would be toxic. Panasonic is a conglomerate with tons of business units, which Tesla would not want to be part of. Tesla would be only interested in their battery unit, but it appears to be the most profitable and most successful of all of Panasonic's business units. Without it, Panasonic looks a lot more bleak (and that could spell bad news for their stock price if they sold their battery unit to Tesla). I'm thinking there's little chance of Panasonic selling their "baby", their battery unit, to anyone.

Another possibility would be for Tesla and Panasonic to form a new battery company.
- Panasonic would "give" their battery unit to this new company and Panasonic would own 50% of the new company
- Tesla Motors would give $500m in cash to the new company and would own 50% of the new company

The benefit to Panasonic would be that this new company they own 1/2 of would secure practically all of Tesla's future battery production.

The benefit to Tesla would be they would be able to continue to work with Panasonic's battery unit (IP, production capacity, manufacturing know-how, etc).

But I know 50/50 ventures rarely work out, so one company would probably have to own the majority.
 
Both good points, though I think that would lock them into the 18650 format for a longer period of time, which may at some point become a disadvantage. If Tesla builds a factory or has Panasonic build a factory they have to guarantee a certain number of cells to make it pay back.

18650 format is a standard format. I don't think Tesla will go off the 18650 format until after Metal-Air batteries come out, at that point they will have to re-evaluate. The Gen III will more then likely use same 18650 format so there is no reason they can't make a commitment. I mean, more factories are going to be built anyways to accommodate Tesla's demand. Building them closer will cut down costs.
 
- Panasonic would "give" their battery unit to this new company and Panasonic would own 50% of the new company
- Tesla Motors would give $500m in cash to the new company and would own 50% of the new company

Panasonic has already done this with Toyota (though I don't know the amount that Toyota chipped in), so it's not a new thing for Panasonic.
 
From what I've read about Panasonic, I think a merger of the two companies would be toxic. Panasonic is a conglomerate with tons of business units, which Tesla would not want to be part of. Tesla would be only interested in their battery unit, but it appears to be the most profitable and most successful of all of Panasonic's business units. Without it, Panasonic looks a lot more bleak (and that could spell bad news for their stock price if they sold their battery unit to Tesla). I'm thinking there's little chance of Panasonic selling their "baby", their battery unit, to anyone.

Another possibility would be for Tesla and Panasonic to form a new battery company.
- Panasonic would "give" their battery unit to this new company and Panasonic would own 50% of the new company
- Tesla Motors would give $500m in cash to the new company and would own 50% of the new company

The benefit to Panasonic would be that this new company they own 1/2 of would secure practically all of Tesla's future battery production.

The benefit to Tesla would be they would be able to continue to work with Panasonic's battery unit (IP, production capacity, manufacturing know-how, etc).

But I know 50/50 ventures rarely work out, so one company would probably have to own the majority.

I totally agree that Panasonic as a whole is a kludge and not very attractive.

But the battery unit is ideal, and I just don't see Panasonic farming any of it out to Tesla. Plus, it would take years of work and billions in investment for Tesla to replicate it, and to a certain extent attempting to do so is to make the same mistake that other automakers have made. The nice thing about Panasonic's battery business is that it is a large, successful business in its own right. It's large and diverse customer base is a big reason that they can afford to be the best in the first place. The innovative ecosystem that they have is more valuable to Tesla than the pure nuts and bolts of building a particular 18650 battery.

So sure, the Panasonic Corporation is a dog, but it's that very crapitude that might let Tesla aquire the battery business at a discount, and then claw shareholder value back by spinning off the dozens of Panasonic business units that they have no interest in.

The main point though is that Tesla needs to start thinking in terms of solutions on this scale. If they are looking at 60k+ Model S/X sales in 2015, vs the ~30k+ they were hoping for at the end of 2012, then they really need to rethink their battery strategy. By 2023 I could easily envision them selling ~2,000,000 cars per year (which is basically what BMW sells now). By that point just the battery portion of their business could have a market value of ~$20 billion.

Not that I necessarily expect this to happen, but it seems possible that if Tesla debuts an attractive GENIII Alpha prototype by the end of the year, and if Q2-Q4 all come in positive, I could see the stock doubling from current levels just on emotional momentum alone. In contrast, it might be a year or more before Abenomics manages to boost Panasonic's financial performance into the black. That might give Tesla a window to acquire Panasonic at a discount compared to where it will be when the market figures out the intrinsic value of its battery business as Tesla is forced to dramatically scale up battery purchases in 2015 and 2016.

As to how realistic any of this is, or whether its even a good idea in the first place, I am still agnostic. But if I were Elon, I'd have a team gaming out a possible Panasonic merger right now. A 5-10 year solution is not going to happen on its own, and if Tesla is forced into putting up a multi-million car long term battery supply contract for bid in 2016, any potential acquisition target is going to sell at a giant premium.
 
18650 format is a standard format. I don't think Tesla will go off the 18650 format until after Metal-Air batteries come out, at that point they will have to re-evaluate. The Gen III will more then likely use same 18650 format so there is no reason they can't make a commitment. I mean, more factories are going to be built anyways to accommodate Tesla's demand. Building them closer will cut down costs.
I agree that G3 will probably still use the 18650 format, but as I posted in the battery thread a GM spokesperson said they are testing cars right now with 400wh/kg batteries, probably Envia, and those are not 18650 format. My feeling is that in 5-6 years that format will no longer be an advantage for vehicles, and possibly not for other devices either.
 
I agree that G3 will probably still use the 18650 format, but as I posted in the battery thread a GM spokesperson said they are testing cars right now with 400wh/kg batteries, probably Envia, and those are not 18650 format. My feeling is that in 5-6 years that format will no longer be an advantage for vehicles, and possibly not for other devices either.

From my understanding, Envia only got 400wh/kg on 20 cycles tested at C/20. After that it dropped by 25%. To add to it they only tested 300-500 cycles. And by the looks of things in terms of wh/l, the new 4.0ah panasonic cells are more dense in terms of volume. (weight is important but we can't forget volume). then how much wh/kg will the envia cells be when put into a battery system?

My feeling is that in 5-6 years 18650 format will do just fine. And by the time we get to Gen 4 in 10 years we will already be on lithium-air.
 
Me thinks Envia is all hot air, since nothing - no press release, no interviews or any news - has come out in the last 18 months after all the massive too-good-to-true claims of 400Wh/Kg. What make this even more odd is that the CEO Mr. Kapadia is generally too eager to answer questions to remove FUD on his company and products on internet forums and comment sections, and has since gone under complete radio silence.
 
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Also, 400wh/kg is not too good to be true.

Yes, I back this too.

400Wh/kg is achievable with silicon based anodes. And I believe that is exactly what Envia created(plus Mn based cathode). Would Envia be able to commercialize tech anytime soon is another question. But on GreenCarCongress there was a report that one company started to offer silicon based anode material. I bet it is expansive and production capacity rather on low volume side, but there are dozens, literally many dozens of companies that are trying to commercialize silicon anode tech at the moment. It is a matter of time till ~400Wh/kg cells would be widely available. And it is not granted that Envia would be among the leaders. Envia was just very vocal about their tech.
 
Just read this:

"By most estimates, the battery for the Model S that I drove should cost between $42,500 and $55,250, or half the cost of the car. But Straubel indicated that it is already much lower. “They’re way less than half, actually,” he says. “Less than a quarter in most cases.” Straubel says more can be done to lower batter costs. He’s working with cell and materials suppliers to increase energy density more, and he’s changing the shape of the cells in ways that make manufacturing them easier."

Tesla’s Novel Battery and Charging Technology | MIT Technology Review