Model S Service Contracts - the poll edition(tm)!

[stopcrazypp]

First it's the 'delivery fee' that can't be waived, even if you take delivery at the factory.

That's the typical case for most car companies (assuming they have factory delivery in the first place). The only exception are the special "European delivery" programs some car makers have (where only you get extra perks/discounts, although only MBenz waives your "delivery fee"; Porsche actually charges you extra).
http://www.frequentbusinesstraveler.com/2011/12/the-complete-guide-to-european-delivery-programs/4/

The deliver/destination charge is a flat rate that doesn't reflect on how close you are to the factory nor does it reflect the actual delivery cost for your specific vehicle.

 

[neroden]

Tesla should simply raise the base price and include maintance for 4 years then have a Ranger service plan.

DSM epitomizes my views exactly. Either provide a clear, useable guide for "how to do routine maintenance without using Tesla", or include the cost of the maintenance in the base price.
The base price should also be increased to include the mandatory "delivery fee" and "final prep fee", obviously.

And they should not price it after tax credit. So, add $49,900+$7500+$1900 +$990 + $180 to the price of the car, and you get a base price of $60470.

I think $60,470 is a perfectly acceptable base price, even if Elon would have lost his bet.

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That's the typical case for most car companies (assuming they have factory delivery in the first place). The only exception are the special "European delivery" programs some car makers have (where only you get extra perks/discounts, although only MBenz waives your "delivery fee"; Porsche actually charges you extra).
http://www.frequentbusinesstraveler.com/2011/12/the-complete-guide-to-european-delivery-programs/4/

The deliver/destination charge is a flat rate that doesn't reflect on how close you are to the factory nor does it reflect the actual delivery cost for your specific vehicle.

I've seen "delivery/destination" charges routinely deleted by dealers during negotiation when buying "off the lot" rather than ordering from the factory.

Perhaps the same will be true for Tesla, actually -- maybe the $990 fee is really the "custom designed car fee" and if you buy a model S sitting in a lot it will not be charged. If so, Tesla should make that clear. I think a lot of us would consider that a reasonable "pick your own options" fee.

 

[Beavis]

Roadster owners seem pretty happy with the amount of service they're getting for $600 per year. I specifically recall the post from the owner who took his Roadster in for his annual service right before his warranty expired. The inspection revealed a hairline crack in a frame weld that the owner didn't know was there. They took the car apart and fixed the frame weld under warranty. It seems inspection is extensive. He posted pics if you want to do a search. For that level of service on my baby? I am all in.

 

[bonnie]

Roadster owners seem pretty happy with the amount of service they're getting for $600 per year. I specifically recall the post from the owner who took his Roadster in for his annual service right before his warranty expired. The inspection revealed a hairline crack in a frame weld that the owner didn't know was there. They took the car apart and fixed the frame weld under warranty. It seems inspection is extensive. He posted pics if you want to do a search. For that level of service on my baby? I am all in.

Here's the article: Tesla dismantles Roadster for owner’s repair just before warranty expires | Motoramic - Yahoo! Autos

And the forum discussion: Warranty Maintainence

 

[dsm363]

It's only $600 per year if you get the unlimited Ranger visits, right? That means it's actually only $475/year that you most likely have to get to keep your warranty intact.

As long as Tesla maintains their service close to what they've done with the Roadster, I think you'll find people a lot less upset about the cost (while still high).

 

[neroden]

Tesla deletes negative posts or threads they don't like (for example. at least one of RodandBarbara's description posts of their first experiences was removed, despite these being important to other Tesla customer in terms of knowing what is going on and seeing if Tesla is dealing with/fixing issues that arise), so you probably won't see much there regarding the service (particularly given the types of response being posted here). I don't read their forums much anymore because of this - you can't trust what they are showing to be the true story.

Oh, that's not just lame, that's super-lame. Nickel-and-diming is one thing, but deleting critical postings in forums is completely out of line. I will also be considering selling my stock, which I previously was not. A company which can't be honest is a company which is going to go bust. I watch for this sort of behavior carefully. So far, Tesla has been quite honest with me -- but there is an implicit commitment in running forums not to delete critical comments.

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I have been on the phone with Customer Service twice today and got the following response:

If you do not have your car inspected once a year, and something needs to be fixed/replaced, then you will be responsible for paying for it.
Regardless if it is under warranty or not.

Next question to ask customer service is, "When will you have the manuals published describing the details of the required inspections, so that I can do them myself or hire someone to?"

If Tesla says they aren't going to do that, then Tesla is violating the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act and can be sued in federal court, and will lose. This would fall under the "bad idea" category for the corporation.

(Technically, Tesla could ask the Federal Trade Commission for a waiver from this restriction of the Warranty Act. I am quite sure that Tesla has not even asked.)

 

[Beavis]

If you use large bold font and predict lawsuits, you should probably cancel. No reason to buy something you aren't completely, deliriously happy with.

 

[neroden]

I wrote to my Tesla rep this morning and received emailed answers to a few questions about the service contract which hopefully will be helpful and prevent some unsupported speculation:

1. Tesla Ranger warranty visits, if needed, as well as service visits are included in the "4 year anywhere" plan.
2. Tire rotation is included in the annual service visit.

How on Earth will they do the tire rotation during the ranger visit? With *no spare tire*, you can't even rotate the tires with a jack!

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I have not been unhappy with anything Tesla has done up to this point. But this just pushed me over the edge. If they planned to do this kind of BS they should have done this PRIOR to making us all lock in our orders and thus forfeit our 40k/5k deposits. This kind of announcement is necessary prior to locking us in. And now we are being forced into adding another fee just to keep our car under warranty by doing what will amount to a worthless inspection?

There's a reason why, after I cancelled my Signature and signed up again, I *didn't* attempt to get my position in the reservation queue back. I will postpone until every single detail like this is absolutely carved in stone.

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If you use large bold font and predict lawsuits, you should probably cancel. No reason to buy something you aren't completely, deliriously happy with.

Actually, there's always reasons to buy things you aren't completely, deliriously happy with. I'm not the deliriously happy sort.

As a stockholder, I think Tesla should make a serious effort not to violate federal warranty law. Tesla should also make a serious effort to comply with copyright law, and I've warned them that I know who to call to get them sued if they don't. It appears at the moment that they are violating copyright law with total unconcern. We'll see if they shape up their act in the next few months. And then again, looking at the final invoices, Tesla doesn't seem to have their state fees straight (charging a California tire fee on a Boston delivery?) -- again, this sort of stuff is actually illegal.

I think the company is not being well-run on the "legal compliance" end of things. This is stuff which you don't need a lawyer to research; easy stuff.

That doesn't mean I won't like the *car*! If I can get through the hassle of dealing with a company which doesn't know how to follow the law (easy laws to follow, mind you), I'll get a very nice car, and by all accounts very nice service.

But from a company which has a very serious weak spot.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

Unless Tesla can convince me of the value of a $600 inspection, that is how I'm leaning. I already have a roadside assistance plan and live 5 miles from the Tesla Service Center. In other words, aside from the inspection, what else would I miss out on by taking a pass on this?

A lot of stuff that you will likely have to pay to fix eventually, like brake pads (though they last forever nowadays) wiper blades, fluids. There is clearly real issues with the battery pack that are helpful to stay on top of. There is real value to the program, but I question the need for it personally.

At the same time, I have an extremely strong technical background, decent mechanical skills and experience, tools, a garage and have customarily done all of the work on my cars (when I have time for it anyways).

Then again, folks need to keep in mind that 98% of the parts on Model S are unique to Model S with no discernible aftermarket. Wiper blades might be $100 once you factor in tax and shipping charges. Same thing for brake pads, burnt bulbs or any of the other knick knacks that the plan covers. For that matter, brake pads aren't cheap even using aftermarket parts on modern sports cars and performance sedans. Especially the German ones.

 

[markwj]

Tesla Service is only an inspection service not a repair plan like Apple

Not from my reading. They say they include all wear and tear items apart from tires, and this is a warranty extension (like the BMW example quoted), so broken parts should be warranty items.

 

[Beavis]

Well, time to stop engaging in this conversation.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

If you chose to take your Model S to an ASE certified mechanic once a year for routine maintenance instead of Tesla and keep documentation, I have a hard time seeing how Tesla will be able to deny you warranty coverage. It certainly wouldn't hold up in court. So to everyone upset with the thought of paying Tesla $480-$600 a year, this will be your alternative.

You would however lose access to firmware updates that can't be done over the air. Most infotainment software will be, but I can foresee some or all drive firmware not being able to be done over-the-air. Too big a security risk.

If you really have a problem with this, I would recommend calling the phone number you were given in your reservation confirmation email. It's likely to be far more effective at inducing change than venting on a forum.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

How on Earth will they do the tire rotation during the ranger visit? With *no spare tire*, you can't even rotate the tires with a jack!

Huh? Maybe you can't, but I do it all the time. Takes 5 minutes.

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Not from my reading. They say they include all wear and tear items apart from tires, and this is a warranty extension (like the BMW example quoted), so broken parts should be warranty items.

I should take the time to read the blog post and scrape together the details. Stupid work keeps intruding.

If the service plan is a pathway to an extended warranty, its a no-brainer. Or maybe a half brainer at best.

 

[strider]

This service plan will deter many potential Tesla customers, especially those looking at the 40 kWh vehicle. I am going to go on the record to say that the annual service plan just killed the 40 kWh Model S, as anyone who was buying it in the first place was probably stretching the budget to begin with, and adding another $50 a month to their payment is likely a deal breaker.

Interesting point. Anyone know what Toyota's doing w/ the RAV4-EV? There was already talk of that being an option for 40kWh buyers at least in California.

 

[PRJIM]

Any chance Tesla releases a maintenance manual for the Model S? If it is only necessary to take it in when the car alerts you there is a problem *not maintenance* then why would anyone take the car in for maintenance? In this scenario I would probably only get one maintenance inspection done (right before the warranty expired). The brake pads, fluid, coolant should be straight forward for a garage mechanic to work on. No offense to the Tesla service department, but I trust myself replacing my brake pads, fluids more so than any tech. I find it hard to believe that Tesla will not release a maintenance manual for the Model S.

 

[strider]

But with those computer hardware maintenance plans, hardware replacement is included, as is labor.

But they say "replacement parts" so it sounds to me like they would include that. But I guess that's the question for Tesla. Does this become like an extended warranty where they replace broken stuff (like if the air suspension dies out of warranty) or is it just "wear items" like brakes and rotors.

I can certainly inspect the mechanical bits myself as well as change brake fluid, wipers, and coolant as I've done all these things in my ICE cars (and I'm about to bleed the brakes and swap pads on my Roadster). So it's looking like a pass on service for me.

As to the Cisco patch thing, they could legally provide patches/bug fixes for free but require you to have service in order to receive new features. Basically, if you don't have a service contract you're locked onto the current code train and only get bug fixes. Depends on whether they want to be maintaining multiple code trains.

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I have been on the phone with Customer Service twice today and got the following response:

If you do not have your car inspected once a year, and something needs to be fixed/replaced, then you will be responsible for paying for it.
Regardless if it is under warranty or not.

That's illegal, plain and simple. They cannot invalidate your warranty for failing to use their service unless they provide it for free. They will have to include a maintenance schedule and if you follow it by yourself or w/ a 3rd party mechanic and something breaks under warranty (not through abuse which wouldn't be covered even if you had the service plan) they must repair it for free (they can charge for a ranger).

I'm curios to know if:
1. Is the service required to maintain the warranty?
2. If so, is the annual service actually a legal requirement in all states? I know that some states have laws that could make an annual service fee an illegal requirement to comply with a warranty.

It's not a state thing, it's a Federal law. Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act (I think that's how you spell it).

 

[Discoducky]

That's illegal, plain and simple. They cannot invalidate your warranty for failing to use their service unless they provide it for free. They will have to include a maintenance schedule and if you follow it by yourself or w/ a 3rd party mechanic and something breaks under warranty (not through abuse which wouldn't be covered even if you had the service plan) they must repair it for free (they can charge for a ranger).

It's not a state thing, it's a Federal law. Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act (I think that's how you spell it).

So, this is disturbing..."in certain cases, may employ the only persons..." Sounds a bit like black mail...If they are truly the only place to NOT void the warranty then they could charge whatever they wanted for maintenance.

Model S - Warranty copy.pdf - Google Docs

Although Tesla does not require you to perform all maintenance, service or repairs at a Tesla Service Center or Tesla authorized repair facility, this New Vehicle Limited Warranty may be voided or coverage may be excluded due to lack of or improper maintenance, service or repairs. Tesla Service Centers and Tesla authorized repair facilities have special training, expertise, tools and supplies with respect to your vehicle and, in certain cases, may employ the only persons or be the only facilities authorized or certified to work on certain parts of your vehicle. Tesla strongly recommends that you have all maintenance, service and repairs done at a Tesla Service Center or Tesla authorized repair facility in order to avoid voiding, or having coverage excluded under, this New Vehicle Limited Warranty.

 

[neroden]

Huh? Maybe you can't, but I do it all the time. Takes 5 minutes.

Well, hmm, thinking about this I guess it is simply a puzzle. How exactly do you do your rotation?

Every time I've jacked a car with a simple manual jack, I've had to have two tires on the ground.

So I can swap front to back or left to right, but in order to do a rearward cross or an X, I would need to do a temporary mounts and relocate the jack multiple times... a bit of a puzzle problem. Of course, I've always had a full size spare; a five-tire rotation is easy with a manual jack.

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So, this is disturbing..."in certain cases, may employ the only persons..." Sounds a bit like black mail...If they are truly the only place to NOT void the warranty then they could charge whatever they wanted for maintenance.

Model S - Warranty copy.pdf - Google Docs

Although Tesla does not require you to perform all maintenance, service or repairs at a Tesla Service Center or Tesla authorized repair facility, this New Vehicle Limited Warranty may be voided or coverage may be excluded due to lack of or improper maintenance, service or repairs. Tesla Service Centers and Tesla authorized repair facilities have special training, expertise, tools and supplies with respect to your vehicle and, in certain cases, may employ the only persons or be the only facilities authorized or certified to work on certain parts of your vehicle. Tesla strongly recommends that you have all maintenance, service and repairs done at a Tesla Service Center or Tesla authorized repair facility in order to avoid voiding, or having coverage excluded under, this New Vehicle Limited Warranty.

Here's the thing: the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act actually has an "out" for a company which really, genuinely, is the only company capable of providing service. Where it's not just because the company refuses to provide a manual or something monopolistic like that. The Warranty Act says that a company which honestly believes that it is the only one which can provide service, can request a waiver from the Federal Trade Commission. I wouldn't blink if Tesla requested and received the waiver from the FTC.

Putting these weasel words in, attempting to pressure people to use Tesla Service -- but *not* requesting the FTC waiver -- that is just not appropriate behavior from Tesla. Edit: I guess I'm basically saying Tesla's legal department is falling down on the job.

 

[AustinPowers]

If you can afford to buy this car, you can afford $600 a year in maintenance...

Sorry, but that's the most crude (dare I say almost idiotic) conclusion I have ever heard someone draw!

You should think about how many people tried to rationalize buying a Model S:

"Ok, I know I have to somehow cough up (e.g. finance) around 50K for this car (why is 90K mentioned so often? not everyone is going for a fully loaded Model S, a Perf or an 85kWh battery after all), but it will cost me much less than my current ICE in fuel and maintenance."

Now we find out that routine maintenance might be "minimal", but still is supposed to cost at least 600$ every 12.5k miles or every year, whichever comes first.
This for many potential customers, especially those who are stretching to get the car, will definitely be the dealbreaker (as it will be for me, if they consider the same costs here in Germany - where EV's are being discriminated to begin with, with hardly any federal incentives to buy or maintain one - in contrast to the US and other countries, where subsidies like federal tax credits make at least the purchase more financially feasable).

 

[neroden]

This for many potential customers, especially those who are stretching to get the car, will definitely be the dealbreaker (as it will be for me, if they consider the same costs here in Germany - where EV's are being discriminated to begin with, with hardly any federal incentives to buy or maintain one - in contrast to the US and other countries, where subsidies like federal tax credits make at least the purchase more financially feasable).

I'm in a "expecting no subsidy" situation myself. Perhaps those of us expecting no subsidy are more likely to find fault with extra costs.