Model X mules show signs of a new spoiler?

[Gerasimental]

Why do people think an active spoiler would be cool? Just for aesthetics? Personally I prefer the sleek simplicity of a car designed to not need adaptive aero (Ok, I'll make an exception for the Pagani Huayra's independently adaptive rear flaps and the 458's 'mustache' flaps )

Sigurdi, I can't imagine a small adaptive wing will have much of an effect on drag on a trailer, although of course that depends a lot on the trailer.
About the wrap, I have no idea what to make of that or any of the other things we've seen in that area on the mules. As far as I'm concerned we're pretty much completely in the dark. I sure do look forward to having this question resolved though.

FWIF, I dreamt of riding in a Model X last night. I was in the 2nd row, which had excellent legroom (I was slouched way back in my seat and my kneed were just touching the driver's seat). The Falcon Wings also had the previously suggested design where they could open using only the hinge at the corner, i.e. open sideways only, for places with a low roof. I remember looking backwards from my seat and being amazed at the amount of space in the 3rd row (which had only 2 seats) and trunk area. Let's wait and see if my dreams have predictive powers - I sure hope so!

 

[AnxietyRanger]

My point: will it be better fuel consuption numbers if X have a wing, when you are pulling a trailer behind you?
Think this is more importan than better traction at high speed.

Ah, sigurdi, how I appreciate you taking part - always with an angle nobody/few else have come up with.

Yes, I think this towing aspect is certainly a possibility. Didn't we recall someone from Tesla talking about how they need to improve some things to make towing/range better... Maybe an active spoiler was part of that?

Google "towing spoiler better MPG" or something and it certainly is a concept that has been said to help with MPG:

Now, of course, that potential spoiler on the Model X won't help so much with a caravan, but it might help with a smaller trailer?

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Why do people think an active spoiler would be cool? Just for aesthetics? Personally I prefer the sleek simplicity of a car designed to not need adaptive aero (Ok, I'll make an exception for the Pagani Huayra's independently adaptive rear flaps and the 458's 'mustache' flaps )

I know some people have expressed desire for an active spoiler, but personally I'm ambivalent about that - I have no desire to there be an active spoiler.

That said, I am interested in finding new clues about what the production Model X could entail. The arm-chair detective work part.

It may be a spoiler, it may be something completely different.

 

[sigurdi]

I guess we will se towing equitment designed for the X and with fuel consuption as a reason to get this trailer.
Think how easy it will be to see what its "cost" to pull just this trailer.
Looking forward to July, when I can configure my X and choise to have a wing or not ;-)

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I guess we will se towing equitment designed for the X and with fuel consuption as a reason to get this trailer.
Think how easy it will be to see what its "cost" to pull just this trailer.
Looking forward to July, when I can configure my X and choise to have a wing or not ;-)

If the hypothetical spoiler is related to towing, it might have a couple of modes - a high-speed spoiler setting for downforce as well as air-brake-like more vertical spoiler setting for trailer towing.

Here is a drawing that shows what a trailing spoiler mode might look like when "open". You can also see the "waves" on the assumed recession under the mule's camo better with this false coloring.

 

[Gerasimental]

Yes, I think this towing aspect is certainly a possibility. Didn't we recall someone from Tesla talking about how they need to improve some things to make towing/range better... Maybe an active spoiler was part of that?

Google "towing spoiler better MPG" or something and it certainly is a concept that has been said to help with MPG:



Now, of course, that potential spoiler on the Model X won't help so much with a caravan, but it might help with a smaller trailer?

You're absolutely right about spoilers (or other aerodynamic features) on the towing vehicle having an effect on overall drag. I'm aware of this and actually very nearly did a PhD with an engineer who does a lot of work in this field (although I was more interested in his work on spacecraft).
What I had meant was that I couldn't imagine the effect being substantial, given the overall shape and aerodynamics of Model X. On second thought though, I was probably wrong as I was thinking about large, bulky trailers whose front surface is substantially higher than the rear of Model X, but of course that is only a minority of trailers. With flatter trailers, up to around the height of the the rear of Model X, a spoiler would indeed reduce drag on the trailer, possibly quite substantially.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Thank you that aero insight, as always, Gerasimental. We may finally have a reason for a spoiler that makes immediate sense?

I wonder if Tesla could use the rear camera(s) to estimate the height of the trailer and adjust the hypothetical spoiler accordingly.

Certainly an adaptive spoiler would give Tesla software opportunities down the road, be it for non-towing or towing situations.

 

[Skotty]

As long as we are speculating, has anyone suggested this possibility? Pop up rear wiper. So maybe it moves, but instead of it being some kind of spoiler, it just brings out the rear window wiper. When the wiper isn't needed, it goes back in it's cave to preserve the clean looks and maximize aerodynamics.

However, due to the fast back slope of the rear window, it probably doesn't need a wiper, so I consider this interesting but not likely.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

As long as we are speculating, has anyone suggested this possibility? Pop up rear wiper. So maybe it moves, but instead of it being some kind of spoiler, it just brings out the rear window wiper. When the wiper isn't needed, it goes back in it's cave to preserve the clean looks and maximize aerodynamics.

Yeah, back in #84 I even offered a "concept drawing" of a multi-function rear spoiler... albeit in jest.

I have also (wildly) speculated, a pressure-washer might also do the trick that would be revealed when the spoiler opened up.

The reason to have a hidden washer for rear might be no rear mirror and thus keeping a camera clean.

For example, Audi uses a pointed-at-camera pressure washer to keep its night-vision camera clean (no wiper).

 

[Gerasimental]

Yeah, back in #84 I even offered a "concept drawing" of a multi-function rear spoiler... albeit in jest.

Ha! You say 'in jest' but I was at a birthday dinner not long ago where I suggested, in jest, a 'selfie drone' as the logical next step from the 'selfie stick' and whaddayknow, a few days later this happens.

Yep, could see a spoiler being used to reduce trailer drag as a feasible possibility, although to me it raises the question of if its worth burdening all customers with the extra cost for something that benefits only quite a small subset of buyers and on some, quite rare, occasions. Possibly as an option? But that increases complexity in the factory and we know Tesla doesn't like that.
Making it adaptive to trailer height is certainly a good idea and a no-brainer technically, but I guess it depends on the marginal benefit gained from the marginal cost of adding cameras and control electronics.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Ha! You say 'in jest' but I was at a birthday dinner not long ago where I suggested, in jest, a 'selfie drone' as the logical next step from the 'selfie stick' and whaddayknow, a few days later this happens.

Yep, could see a spoiler being used to reduce trailer drag as a feasible possibility, although to me it raises the question of if its worth burdening all customers with the extra cost for something that benefits only quite a small subset of buyers and on some, quite rare, occasions. Possibly as an option? But that increases complexity in the factory and we know Tesla doesn't like that.
Making it adaptive to trailer height is certainly a good idea and a no-brainer technically, but I guess it depends on the marginal benefit gained from the marginal cost of adding cameras and control electronics.

I get your point. The spoiler case strengthens if we add the rear shape of the car (similar to some other cars with electronic spoilers) and possible downforce concerns in the mix... It could all make sense, if it helps with trailers and range as well - as well as allowing Tesla to make the rear shape the way they want for regular situations, while allowing high-performance moments the option to raise a spoiler...

Just thinking out loud. It could be, it could be not.

As for cameras, my thoughts were the camera(s) used would be the regular rearview camera/possible rear-mirror replacing rear camera. Electronics needs probably wouldn't be any more than on your average adaptive spoiler anyway - and software is what Tesla is pretty good at...

 

[AnxietyRanger]

New sightings of the spoiler area:

Model X Mule Sightings - Page 92

 

[AnxietyRanger]

The rear spoiler area seems to have a camo wrap extending all the way to the sides (over the window area) in the latest:

Brian (TslaUp) on StockTwits

 

[1208]

Credit where credits due.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to AnxietyRanger again.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Thanks 1208!

For completeness sake, here is the link in this thread as well:

Model X Mule Sightings - Page 112

From a quick peek, that looks quite like the Porsche spoiler the way it goes up, but an open-from-below design like the Audi/BMW spoilers in our Model X spoiler thread. The Porsche spoiler can go to many different heights (as seen in those thread link pictures), I wonder if the Model X spoiler can too.

Thank you guys for the kind words too, great to see one of the research targets bear fruit - and that long thread not going quite so to waste. Although, ironically, now all that effort is not needed anymore. That's the nature of this game, soon it will all be for naught. And thanks to whomever for a great sighting!

Still, there is the speculation on what it is needed for:

Aside from the theory that Model X needs it for downforce due to height, there was discussion of towing benefits with a spoiler.

This image shows a spoiler for a tall trailer, but considering a regular, small trailer, I wonder if that spoiler could help with aero there.

 

[goneskiian]

Great sleuthing AR! I thought you might be onto something with this line of thought. Well done.

I don't think it will help much when towing though. Unless the trailer being towed is a low profile version. The rear of the X just isn't very tall compared to a boxy SUV like that shown in your graphic above. Could be wrong though.

Cheers!

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Thanks.

Great sleuthing AR! I thought you might be onto something with this line of thought. Well done.

I don't think it will help much when towing though. Unless the trailer being towed is a low profile version. The rear of the X just isn't very tall compared to a boxy SUV like that shown in your graphic above. Could be wrong though.

Cheers!

Indeed. In the case of the Model X potential help with towing could be only for low-profile trailers, not hauling horses or camper vans. Still, it could be a motivation for Tesla - since towing will obviously be a big deal with Model X.

That said, earlier in this thread - way before towing was speculated - I suggested that Germans put spoilers or adaptive spoiler in similar vehicles with very curvy backs but short "natural" wings after that - like the Porsche Panamera, Audi A7 and BMW 4 Series GT. Model X in its latest form would fit this same general shape, in my opinion. This lead me to speculate some months ago that Model X may actually need the spoiler for high-speed stability.

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This educational video reference deserves to be posted here too - thanks! And loved the F1 reference.

It reduces drag and lift. Unlike a spoiler that reduces lift and increases drag, However the reduced lift offsets the increase in drag, which has a net benefit (with a spoiler).

Watch the video again: Sports Car Aerodynamics: Spoiler Alert! - YouTube

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One thing speaking against Model X needing the spoiler for stability is its stable weight distribution, low center of gravity and assumedly fairly high weight.

It is possible the spoiler is not needed for stability, but its use could revolve entirely around increasing range (with or without a tow) as has been speculated in many directions over the past weeks.

 

[vandacca]

My apologies AR. I thought you were nuts for thinking that (what appeared to be trim) was a spoiler. From this last sighting, it appears I was wrong. I'm excited to be wrong. :redface:

 

[AnxietyRanger]

My apologies AR. I thought you were nuts for thinking that (what appeared to trim) was a spoiler. From this last sighting, it appears I was wrong. I'm excited to be wrong. :redface:

Thank you. Though no need for an apology in itself, your messages have been very fair on the subject overall, but in any case I appreciate the encouragement! I get it that some of the speculation and digging I do requires a certain kind of (even unreasonable) openness, which also leads at time to keeping open doors that should have been shut long time ago. It is good to have numerous different voices to keep things balanced, so keep finding holes in my thinking people, that's why we discuss and while there is a success here, there are other failures right around the corner. The only thing that matters - aside from having fun - is trying to get close to the truth (of what Model X is/will be in this case) with the data we are processing...

What now remains, on the spoiler topic, is the question of: Why. It is a much harder one. Perhaps someone wants to continue the pondering in this thread now that we have an image, so I'll leave a reply of mine from the sightings thread here:

Thanks for those links. I had been following the one you started but lost interest because I thought there was no reason for an adaptive spoiler. (!) I just read the rest of it, and never did see a viable answer for "why?".

I don't buy the answer that it is for aerodynamic use during towing. There are too many variables in the trailer for it to be useful enough. Plus, the only number they really care about is the official maximum range numbers, without a trailer. They aren't going to spend millions developing something that might increase range for a few buyers who want to tow.

What I fear more and more in this development is that they are unable to reach the range goals for the MX and are trying anything they can to make improvements, no matter how minute. The thought that they are grasping for anything that helps is not what I want to hear.

I think taking any single reason and running with it, is probably not wise in this case, as it isn't in most cases. Tesla probably had several reasons to do this. But you are right in suggesting range concerns probably played a part, we do remember some Tesla higher-ups saying or suggesting at various events optimizing Model X range has caused them extra work. Having to add an adaptive spoiler could be one element of that extra work, but probably not the only one.

As for towing, I too doubt they would add it just for that, but it could be one part of the reasoning for the spoiler. Perhaps consider the possibility of the rear-view camera estimating the height of the trailer and then adjusting spoiler in kind.

I'm not well versed in the physics of aerodynamics, but is there a situation where a spoiler would ever have a positive impact on range under normal circumstances? I can't really see it, so I'm not thinking that's what this is. I'd also think if they were desperate to gain a few more miles of range we'd be seeing some of the things known to aid this, such as aero wheels, narrower tires, or wheel skirts.

This video suggests drag reduction by airfoils like the one shown on the Model X, in normal circumstances:

Sports Car Aerodynamics: Spoiler Alert! - YouTube

I think all three upsides for the adjustable airfoil/spoiler are possibly relevant:

- Reduction of drag in normal circumstances (adjust airfoil angle to speed)
- Towing (turn the airfoil into a towing spoiler)
- Reducing lift at very high speeds for added safety

 

[EchoDelta]

Ok adding ideas to Why: Exposing substantial roof rack anchor points?

From what folks have speculated in other threads MX roof racks could be transformable contraptions that move and shift weight off center of gravity of the 4 "angles" of the roof. Some complex versions seem to require their own mini nuclear power plants and hydraulic systems. :-/

 

[AnxietyRanger]

If any aero expert wants to comment, lest it all be lost in a gigantic sightings thread:

I think all three upsides for the adjustable airfoil/spoiler are possibly relevant:

- Reduction of drag in normal circumstances (adjust airfoil angle to speed)
- Towing (turn the airfoil into a towing spoiler)
- Reducing lift at very high speeds for added safety

Right, nothing in that video is "normal" driving. I'm not sure the Model X is going to need any amount of down-force to aid handling under normal conditions. I do understand that an airfoil can aid at speed, but have to assume that there are condition that must be overcome before it would start to aid in efficiency. Or am I wrong, and that an airfoil increases efficiency from 0 mph? I get that it's adaptive, but at what speed would the airfoil begin to help with efficiency?

To be clear, I do not consider towing normal driving, and understand how it can help when you've got a trailer attached.

I don't claim to be an aero expert, so what I'm offering are merely ideas that may be relevant. The video does - whether or not it is right - suggest reduction of drag with an airfoil. If so, it seems quite likely to me that would apply under normal driving speeds as well. That doesn't necessarily mean city driving, perhaps it means continued stints on the highways, but that would still be normal driving. As for downforce, I didn't suggest Model X would necessarily need it in normal conditions, but it might still be something they'd use at very high-speeds (think the autobahn) now that a spoiler seems to be available.

I'm suggesting the spoiler/airfoil could be a combination of moderate help in all of these areas, instead of a big help necessarily in any one of them. Just an avenue of speculation.

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I think the point of the wing/airfoil/spoiler/whatever in this case will be to increase high speed stability, not to try to reduce drag (which as others have pointed out, it cannot). I assume that P versions of the X will be capable of speeds up to 155 mph / 250 km/h. At speeds above 100 mph, such a tall car would probably benefit from some rear end downforce.

Perhaps they optimized the basic form for lowest drag, but then found at high speeds some downforce was desirable at the cost of some drag.

Spoiler can have positive effects with towing a trailer and the above-mentioned video does suggest reduction of drag by a suitably positioned (this one is adjustable/adaptive) airfoil. I don't know if it is true, but this concept of "spoilers add drag" is being thrown around on TMC without me knowing how accurate it actually is.

On Wikipedia, the first line is: "The goal of many spoilers used in passenger vehicles is to reduce drag". Here is one Q&A answer I found: "Any added surface in an airflow adds drag. However, good spoiler designs can reduce the overall drag of your vehicle. This is achieved by minimizing the wake turbulence. So its a favorable trade off, slightly increased skin drag but much reduced overall drag."