The promise was 1,200 Signatures in NA and that's what we have, there's no integrity issue here unless you're being overly pedantic about holding them to an allocation ratio within NA. Sure, maybe 30 or 40 or so moved to the US from the original 5:1 ratio, but again, it's like 30 or 40 people moved from Canada to the US. BFD, unless you have a big issue with someone driving from Toronto to Buffalo, or Vancouver to Seattle.
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More than 1,000 U.S. Signatures (confirmed)
- Thread starter brianman
- Start date
I really don't think this is an integrity issue. I recognize that some may think that way, but there always were 1200 North American Signatures and they're all happily in the same warranty region and can wander back and forth across the Canada-USA border at will. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!
I do think that some people are beating up on each other a wee bit too much on this thread. Surely we can respect other people's opinions while disagreeing with them.
I do think that some people are beating up on each other a wee bit too much on this thread. Surely we can respect other people's opinions while disagreeing with them.
Why do you say that? The web site clearly said limited to 1,000 for signatures for quite a while and that surely is what their representatives told me when I reserved in 2011. It is academic to me now as I dropped to GP over the summer. However, I understand why someone who kept their sig would feel upset. Also, the choice to reallocate was purely optional by Tesla, it is not like they promised one thing but later found that they couldn't deliver (which is understandable and I happily cut them slack). They simply could have sold x fewer Canadian sigs and left it at that but chose to sell more US VIN and equipped Sigs.
You're entitled to your opinion (and it's a valuable one!) but facts are something else.
Technically, the North American Sig count was 1,000 in June 2011.
Tesla Launches Model S reservations in Canada | Press Releases | Tesla Motors
I realize things change. But changing them after people have signed the MVPA -- making (some of) the deposit non-refundable is what I originally took issue with.
If someone has a Tesla inflicted issue; I am sure Tesla will give a full refund- regardless of what the MVPA says. I am confident Tesla will give anyone back their full deposit, if what they promised changed after the MVPA was signed. This was proven with the Supercharger concession. I do not think they are trying to pull the bait and switch here. Things change and that is understandable. If you attempted to get your full deposit back and Tesla refused then you would have a point; from what I have read this is not the case? I know a few people who have wanted their full deposit (deletion of exterior CF, delay issues etc) and Tesla has given the full deposit back.
OK, I'll give you the technical point.
Sticker was $3,700 which is $28,000 inflation adjusted to today. Sports Car Marketplace, a pretty good bible for these things, values a k-code mustang at $42,000.
So, I take it all back: definitely buy this as an investment vehicle! (pun intended) There has been one car made in volume, which if you held it in pristine condition for 50 years, will have appreciated somewhat slightly more than inflation.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
+1. If people are upset, then they should talk to Tesla about a refund. I think that's the reason for the pushback here. I don't see it as an integrity issue (1200 is 1200 to me), but I understand some of you do (because you believed it was 1000 US). We're all entitled to our own opinions.
My point earlier was that IF you feel you've been misled, talk to Tesla about a refund. You're entitled to get what you believe you are paying for. I'd support that in a heartbeat. And I know someone else would be thrilled to get the sig spot. ... has anyone asked Tesla for a refund because of this?
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I am only stating facts that Tesla provided and then changed when it made more financial sense to them.Giving up my slot or expecting a monetary solution is not what I'm after. Having been through this, my goal would be to make sure that no one ever has to deal with these issues again.
teslasguy
MSP P#1117
Has anyone ever bothered to archive or copy all the Tesla web pages, press releases and blogs over the years? I think it would be interesting to be able to fact check all the statements that have been made by Tesla this year.
I seem to recall that Tesla did in fact originally state that their would be only 1000 US Sigs built. George B. says that they have always said only that there would be 1200 NA Sigs (I think). I honestly can't be certain on stuff like this from my memory, but it would be interesting to know for sure. However, the issue is why does it matter. If Tesla has in fact changed positions while denying previous statements then I can easily see where some folks consider this a fundamental breech of trust and thus it is a very major deal to them. Others may well consider this typical corporate puffery and standard "marketing" techniques and don't consider it a big deal (caveat emptor). But it seems to me that we need to carefully distinguish between feelings and facts. Each person is entitled to their own feelings around the facts. However, we are not each entitled to our own facts. I just wish the facts were more easily discernable.
George B replied to this thread and assured us that it was a rumor that they would do just what they did. When George replied that I was only 100 slots from where I was, I guess he forgot that ~300 people in front of my reservation changed/cancelled or otherwise modified their reservation. That would mean ~400 people jumped in front of me. Seems reasonable to be a bit disappointed. :biggrin: Won't have any time to worry about minor issues once I have my car as I will be to busy enjoying it.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
I can't find the post from George B in this thread. I do see one where someone posted a separate exchange with him. Am I missing something?
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Guess the rumor was correct.
On 11/08/2012 10:40 PM, George Blankenship wrote:
> Hi Bill. Thanks for the question… Happy to answer it for you.
>
> There are 1200 Sigs in "North America". They are not separated out into 1000 and 200, it's 1200 total. There are less than 200 in Canada which means there are more than 1000 in the USA. We are not changing the overall number. We would not do that.
>
> Again, thanks for the question. I look forward to you having something soon to use your new adapter with
>
> Have a great weekend!
>
> George
Clarification. Not 'someone' posted. You posted.
Apologies. I'm still looking for the post where you said George B replied in this thread ...
I think you should try and let Tesla sell your Sig spot to someone else and go for a production slot. They will never be able to repair the damage to you they have caused by allocating more than 1,000 Sigs to the US.
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You'll find that prior Tesla owners have a very different view on this. Yes, Tesla did indicate with their language that Sigs would be 1 of 1,000 but then shifted to 1,200 in North America later on. We all know things are very fluid with Tesla at the moment and that includes things they thought would be true at the time they said it and new circumstances caused them to change things. In an ideal world, they would have stuck with 1,000 US Sigs but if they could gain an additional $250k (50 Sigs x $5,000 Sig premium) and pay the annual salary of 5 factory workers then they would be stupid not to do it. Every dollar counts for them at some point and if they stick to the perfect world scenarios, they might not be around to make many more cars.
They, like all people and companies, have made mistakes but time and again, they seem to at least try and address the issue. Their service has been amazing so far even sending someone down 4 hours from Chicago to help fix a flat for my parent's Model S. I wouldn't call most of the people at Tesla flakes or question their integrity as everyone I've ever dealt with in the last 4 years has been amazing. It will be tough for them to maintain that as they ramp up production but I'm sure they will try.
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I totally understand and respect where you are coming from. I'm glad you see the situation for what it is and are ok with going ahead. This shouldn't be an issue again as there are no more Signature Model Ss made. They will have Sigs for the Model X but I'd imagine after this, they'll keep the number vague (total 1,200 in North America) now.
Jgdixon
Active Member
Just curious, do we actually know how many we're sold in Canada? I'm S #152 and I think I've seen someone who is #162
I have been going back and reading old posts on this forum (back to 2009). It's definitely interesting to read the claims.
The first few hundred Sigs were promised a 'unique set of options that could not be replicated in the general production' which while technically true ended up not to be the case. Everyone has the right to be angry about anything of course but you'd think those people would be the most pissed off. It says a lot about the company that those people (mostly Roadster owners) have been largely accepting of smaller things like this since they knew things were likely to shift given the young nature of the company and it being essentially a startup. Other people came in with different expectations and are less willing to forgive which is also understandable.
I agree with Bonnie wholeheartedly. In addition, if you feel you've been wronged by Tesla and that they lack the moral character of a company you want to do business with, what makes you think you'll be happier once they have your money and have delivered you the car? See if they will give your Signature spot to someone who came into the game later with all the facts and options laid out before they reserved and go for a production car. You'll probably be much happier and your car won't be devalued by the addition 50 or so Canadian Sigs that made it into the US.
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I just went back and looked at the Model S Signature Reservation agreement from 5/2009. I never noticed the part about the Founders series but that is indeed there. There is also no mention of it being an exclusive 1 of 1,000 cars so while the website might have indicated that, it looks like the legal document you sign doesn't.
I did get an e-mail later after the money was wired that said
So they did talk about 1,000 cars. When they added Canada they did shift to the 1,200 North America language.
Speaking of promises, I e-mail Tesla in Sept. 2009 asking about a Model S Sport model and was told it wouldn't be avaliable until 3rd or 4th year of production. I'm pretty upset they didn't stick to this promise.:smile: Seriously though, if you can look past a few dozen cars from Canada crossing the border and enjoy the car when you get it, I think you'll be pleased. Awesome car so far.
I agree with Bonnie wholeheartedly. In addition, if you feel you've been wronged by Tesla and that they lack the moral character of a company you want to do business with, what makes you think you'll be happier once they have your money and have delivered you the car? See if they will give your Signature spot to someone who came into the game later with all the facts and options laid out before they reserved and go for a production car. You'll probably be much happier and your car won't be devalued by the addition 50 or so Canadian Sigs that made it into the US.
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I just went back and looked at the Model S Signature Reservation agreement from 5/2009. I never noticed the part about the Founders series but that is indeed there. There is also no mention of it being an exclusive 1 of 1,000 cars so while the website might have indicated that, it looks like the legal document you sign doesn't.
I did get an e-mail later after the money was wired that said
So they did talk about 1,000 cars. When they added Canada they did shift to the 1,200 North America language.
Speaking of promises, I e-mail Tesla in Sept. 2009 asking about a Model S Sport model and was told it wouldn't be avaliable until 3rd or 4th year of production. I'm pretty upset they didn't stick to this promise.:smile: Seriously though, if you can look past a few dozen cars from Canada crossing the border and enjoy the car when you get it, I think you'll be pleased. Awesome car so far.
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The TM forum shows 177 as the highest Canadian reservation number. Of course, that only includes those who have posted their number and it doesn't include dropouts. I'd use that as the number until a more accurate number is found.
Where do you draw the line?
They haven't delivered (AFAIK) any general production vehicles yet. Why not give the first 15,000 reservations an option to upgrade to "Signature" today and reap the profits?
I draw the line at 1,200 North American Signature cars. They have been consistent on that front for about a year.
Are you really equating Tesla shifting maybe 30 Canadian Sigs from the same 1,200 North American Sigs (they haven't broken that promise) to Tesla granting an additional 15,000 Signature cars? If so then I think this conversation really doesn't have much use anymore. I urge you to try and get your Signature reservation canceled and go into the production sequence. That way no promise with Tesla will be broken.
The real value of the Signature was the "get your car first" perk. The Sig Red color, white interior, badges, etc were nice touches but I really think that most people booked a signature because it allowed them to jump to the front of the line.
Bottom line is this: Tesla needs the Model S to be a successful car or they are toast. Tesla may say something today and that may change next week/month/year. You are buying a car from a company that is run like a tech startup. Things change daily and constantly; it can be frustrating for some customers to have to deal with this. It is up to you to decide if it is worth it.
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