More than 1,000 U.S. Signatures (confirmed)

[DouglasR]

I can see where TM's offering a Canadian Sig, or for that matter a European Sig, might make U.S. Sig owners feel somewhat less exclusive or elite. It was a marketing decision to offer a a special edition car in the first place, kind of like the ads on TV that say, "Not available in stores!". Unfortunately, companies often have a tendency to promise more than they deliver, and to engage in a bit of "puffery" in their marketing. It shouldn't surprise anybody when the promised performance is adjusted over time. But we should also note that TM has on occasion made marketing choices that add to the value of what we were promised, for example by offering free electricity for life at the supercharger stations. On balance, I believe the company has added more than it has subtracted.

 

[doug]

Are all the US Sig VINs to come sequentially before the Canadian VINs? Is Canadian Sig #1 expecting to get VIN 1001?

 

[brianman]

Are you really equating Tesla shifting maybe 30 Canadian Sigs from the same 1,200 North American Sigs (they haven't broken that promise) to Tesla granting an additional 15,000 Signature cars? If so then I think this conversation really doesn't have much use anymore.

1. No, I'm not equating 30 to 14,000.
2. I believe we already have VIN numbers reported over 1030, so I'm not sure where you're getting 30 from.
3. My point was that your argument applies regardless of how high the number goes. If you were Tesla, wouldn't you "be stupid not to" take the number as high as the market would bear?
4. You didn't answer my question. You seem to think growing to 1030 is "ok", but not to 15000. So where do you draw the line? At what number would you consider it an integrity issue? I'm honestly curious, dsm.

 

[dsm363]

1. No, I'm not equating 30 to 14,000.
2. I believe we already have VIN numbers reported over 1030, so I'm not sure where you're getting 30 from.
3. My point was that your argument applies regardless of how high the number goes. If you were Tesla, wouldn't you "be stupid not to" take the number as high as the market would bear?
4. You didn't answer my question. You seem to think growing to 1030 is "ok", but not to 15000. So where do you draw the line? At what number would you consider it an integrity issue? I'm honestly curious, dsm.

That's why I said 'maybe 30' since we don't really know how many there are. We know it is not 200 since there is at least one Canadian Sig.

Well, I think Tesla would be stupid to totally blow the 1,200 NA Sigs out of the water and make it 1,400 or 2,000 or 15,000 (you pick a number). They are sticking to their recent promise of no more than 1,200 Sigs in North America. I would consider Tesla producing more than 1,200 Sigs in North America an integrity issue and it doesn't appear that they are doing that according to GeorgeB.

 

[timdorr]

Are all the US Sig VINs to come sequentially before the Canadian VINs? Is Canadian Sig #1 expecting to get VIN 1001?

At this point, no. There are more than 1000 US Sigs, so CA Sigs will start at some where between 1001 and 1200, depending on how many remain.

 

[Zythryn]

Brianman, to your question regarding would I be ok if Tesla expanded their signature series to 15k.
Yes, I would.
I am sorry you feel slighted be another 1-5% of cars be available in the US. Perhaps you should move to Canada as they will have fewer than the 200 originally expected thus a higher value to you?
If you feel slighted, I would suggest contacting Tesla and see if there is a way you can drop your sig order for a production.

 

[FlasherZ]

The real value of the Signature was the "get your car first" perk. The Sig Red color, white interior, badges, etc were nice touches but I really think that most people booked a signature because it allowed them to jump to the front of the line.

No... I really, really, *really* wanted a red car. Seriously.

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Are all the US Sig VINs to come sequentially before the Canadian VINs? Is Canadian Sig #1 expecting to get VIN 1001?

No, because my VIN is 1049 for S1189. I've asked why -- perhaps they scrapped a few that didn't pass QA or something, I don't know. As more get delivered, we'll see. Maybe I'm one of the very, very last ones built in the US and represent the > 1,000.

I'm just fine with that.

 

[Doug_G]

The TM forum shows 177 as the highest Canadian reservation number. Of course, that only includes those who have posted their number and it doesn't include dropouts. I'd use that as the number until a more accurate number is found.

There are also 23 SSL reservation numbers. Probably there were some dropouts that were reassigned to the US waiting list.

 

[Doug_G]

The first few hundred Sigs were promised a 'unique set of options that could not be replicated in the general production' which while technically true ended up not to be the case. Everyone has the right to be angry about anything of course but you'd think those people would be the most pissed off. It says a lot about the company that those people (mostly Roadster owners) have been largely accepting of smaller things like this since they knew things were likely to shift given the young nature of the company and it being essentially a startup.

I'm a Roadster owner. I've done a LOT to help promote Tesla. I've talked to thousands of people about their cars (this is no exaggeration!), helped out at Tesla events, taken potential customers for rides, charged their demo cars, all kinds of things. Obviously I'm a Big Fan. So of course I immediately signed up for Signature when it became available in Canada. It would have been very hard not to.

Yeah, Signature just meets the minimum standard of what they promised, and isn't really what they hinted at. I'm philosophical about it, mostly. But Canadians on the whole are pretty pragmatic about money, and given the minimalist final product I'm not surprised if a bunch of Canadians Signatures dropped to General Production. Meanwhile there's a bunch of Americans on the Signature waiting list. It's hard to fault Telsa for giving them what they want - were they supposed to say, "yeah we've got a bunch left but only Canadians can buy them"? It's really hard to do that. If I were on the waiting list I wouldn't be terribly happy if they did that.

Fact is, no matter what you do, you can't make everyone happy.

 

[brianman]

I am sorry you feel slighted be another 1-5% of cars be available in the US.

This misunderstanding is apparently contagious.

 

[Zythryn]

This misunderstanding is apparently contagious.

Sorry Brian, I thought your primary concern was the dilution of value.
Looking at your first response in this thread it seems that was your concern:

...As I noted in the original thread, the concern about the Founder's rumor for me was about Signature dilution not about the line skipping.

This expressed change in course dilutes in exactly the same way. And I'm bothered by it. Perhaps I'm alone in that concern, perhaps not.

If your concern over your suspicion there are going to be more than 1000 Sigs in the US has changed, please let me know what your concern is.

 

[brianman]

@Zythryn - See post 193.

Dilution is one concern, but not in the way you described it. Again, see post 193.

Integrity is a bigger concern.

"It's only a few more" in some ways just makes it more appalling: "We'll just slip it under the radar."

This is yet another example where communication would have helped. Something like...

Dear Signature Model S reservation holder,

We originally allotted 1000 Signature vehicles for North America (June 2011), and expanded it to 1200 for North America with 1,000 for the U.S. and 200 for Canada. As the U.S. Signature reservations were finalized (MVPA), it became clear that 200 Signature slots in Canada was more than is needed. We've decided to expand the U.S. list but keep the 1200 number the same for North America.

If you'd like to cancel your reservation or convert to general production, you can do so freely without losing any of your deposit and a new MVPA will be drafted, etc. in the latter case.

Please contact us by ___ date if you'd like to make such a change. In the absense of such contact, we will move forward with your existing MVPA and Signature vehicle.

It took me less than two minutes to draft this language, and I'm a mere engineer. If they would have sent something like this back when the decision was made rather than wait for it to dribble from representatives to forum posters, it would have been a whole different story.

This is what I, and perhaps others, mean when referring to the integrity aspect of this concern. You address it openly, quickly, and you give the affected parties good options and clear information about how to proceed.

 

[FlasherZ]

Perhaps they didn't need to do that because the idea of dilution by having a few Canadian Sigs re-allocated to the US isn't something most people would consider an issue?

 

[lgagliardi]

For me, I would not be happy to have a vin number higher than 1000. I would also not want my car to be a 2013 if there were sigs that were 2012. If you are going to be first, then the car should be a 2012 with a vin under 1000. (my vin is 720) Lastly, I do feel a signature will be worth more although I feel it will take 25 plus years to achieve. This is the first car EVER built from the ground up to be electric. In X years down the road, collectors will want this car in their collection and in my opinion, they will want a sig - to be more specific, a 2012 sig with a vin under 1000. Just my personal thoughts.

 

[FlasherZ]

All U.S. Sigs are 2012 models. My VIN is 1049.

That said, I can tell you that I have one of the first 2,000 or so "1964 1/2" Mustangs made. Every time I get an offer on that car at a car show, no one cares whether the VIN is 500 or 1,000 or 1,500 or 2,000 or even 10,000.

 

[Norbert]

I realize things change. But changing them after people have signed the MVPA -- making (some of) the deposit non-refundable is what I originally took issue with.

Just in case this thread is waiting for my comment before it dies (who knows):

Lot's of things have changed. One was higher initial demand than expected, and the other a tighter financial situation. All in all, I think Tesla did a great job in sticking to the original specifications. After many had made their deposits, a performance version was (officially) added, 5+ star crash testing was "added", 320 miles instead of 300 miles (in the original 2 cycle test) was added. First class handling and suspension was "added". A shelf below the 17" screen (and the open console) was added. Free supercharging was added. But most discussion space here is spent discussing changes that some think are negative changes. Some find something where they think they have a "right" to be upset , and hold on to it like to a lifebelt.

It seemed you didn't mind that much the 200 for Canada. So, personally, I think "one of twelve hundred in North America" sounds better than "one of a thousand in the US". And personally, I don't think you can reasonably expect Tesla, having to fight the odds to even survive, to stick to the tiniest letter of any goal they ever mentioned on their website. Again, all in all, I think Tesla did a great job in sticking to the original specifications, and altogether you are getting a better car than you had reason to expect.

 

[spatterso911]

All U.S. Sigs are 2012 models. My VIN is 1049.

That said, I can tell you that I have one of the first 2,000 or so "1964 1/2" Mustangs made. Every time I get an offer on that car at a car show, no one cares whether the VIN is 500 or 1,000 or 1,500 or 2,000 or even 10,000.

Very good point. It seems that all of the value of the sig is being placed on the VIN, which may very well turn out to be a non-issue.

 

[JRP3]

This is the first car EVER built from the ground up to be electric.

The EV1 predates the S, not to mention the thousands of purpose built EVs in the early 20th century.
I asked previously if there was ever any promise of vins only going to 1000?

 

[dsm363]

If having a VIN less than 1,000 will make a difference, wouldn't you not want to drive it and see if it appreciates over the next 30-50 years? Putting 100,000 miles on it won't make it a great collectors car most likely.

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@Zythryn - See post 193.

Dilution is one concern, but not in the way you described it. Again, see post 193.

Integrity is a bigger concern.

"It's only a few more" in some ways just makes it more appalling: "We'll just slip it under the radar."

This is yet another example where communication would have helped. Something like...

In Post #193, you say

What is causing you to jump from "cars produced for U.S. market" to "cars physically in the U.S. at some point in time"? Those are distinctly different things.

As different as "there are 16 crisped Fiskers at the dealership" and "they built 16 crisped Fiskers for customers".

How does that explain your position? They have said for awhile now that there will be 1,200 NA Sigs. Have you asked for your Sig Deposit back or have they already produced your car? I agree communication would have helped it's just obvious that this irked you more than others (you said it wasn't a financial or resale value issue).

Also, when did you put down your Signature deposit? Were they already talking about 1,200 NA Sigs at that point? I know they never specifically said there would be a shift of a few Canadian Sigs to the US though.

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The EV1 predates the S, not to mention the thousands of purpose built EVs in the early 20th century.
I asked previously if there was ever any promise of vins only going to 1000?

From my May 2009 reservation e-mail

Your sequence number may not be identical to your vehicle identification number, or VIN. These numbers are designed to keep you apprised of your position, but the actual VIN will not be set until time of production.

They also talked about a limited edition of 1,000 Sigs but that was before the car was even in alpha stage and before the Canadian Sigs were announced.

 

[jerry33]

If having a VIN less than 1,000 will make a difference, wouldn't you not want to drive it and see if it appreciates over the next 30-50 years? Putting 100,000 miles on it won't make it a great collectors car most likely.

Unless almost all the others get scrapped. I don't see that happening unless sometime in the future Tesla has a major buy-back program. Something on the order of: At the ten or twelve year mark Tesla offers to purchase your Model S for 50% (or more) of the original purchase price if you purchase a New Model S. And then scraps the cars rather then reselling them.