New Forum Design

[JRP3]

Put the "Watched Threads" link in the top navigation list "publicTabs" (next to "New Posts", for instance)

Yes, I suggested the same thing as well. If needed replace one of the other links on the list that probably don't get used often, such as "Groups" or "Connect".

 

[JRP3]

For me, being busted back to crewman (complete loss of previous rep/track record) was enough to justify being done here.

There has been a lot of criticism by many posters of the total loss of all the historical data that went into building up our reputation levels under the old system.

I'm still puzzled by this since the members with high post counts and many rep points are already well known in the community. New members should be able to figure out that those with high post counts probably know a thing or two. Why the concern for virtual trophies?

 

[Andyw2100]

I'm still puzzled by this since the members with high post counts and many rep points are already well known in the community. New members should be able to figure out that those with high post counts probably know a thing or two. Why the concern for virtual trophies?

I think being well-known in today's community is only part of the issue.

The community is constantly changing. In the past, as new members joined the community, the old rep system was a quick way for them to at least in a small way know something about the people who wrote the posts they were reading. The number of posts a poster has made tell one part of the story. The reputation received tell another part of it.

There was so much effort made to not lose any of the data from the old system when transitioning to the new that it just seems unnecessary to completely do away with the reputation point values. Sure, do away with the system, because you have built a better one, and the old system was flawed, but display the one historical piece of information from that system that holds value. A big part of it for me is about not losing the history!

In my opinion, when someone like @bonnie or @wk057 or @FlasherZ or @brianman or @NigelM posts, the work they have done helping to make TMC what it is today should be on display for all to see, even if it is as subtle as a single number. That single number represents something, and there doesn't seem to be a good reason to simply throw it away.

 

[ohmman]

The community is constantly changing. In the past, as new members joined the community, the old rep system was a quick way for them to at least in a small way know something about the people who wrote the posts they were reading. The number of posts a poster has made tell one part of the story. The reputation received tell another part of it.

The argument that it's helpful for new users is reasonable. I think over time the new feedback metrics will reflect similar statistics to what we had before (except for users who decide they no longer want to participate). So maybe there's a slight gap in that information between the transition and, say, 6 months from now. But I do think it will regularize. That doesn't address your later concern about long-time contributors getting a head start, of course.

An argument against the old system - I had recently made it to 11 bars, which was the maximum visible. So to a new user, my feedback would appear as weighty as that of the names you listed above (as well as yours). That doesn't seem fair, considering the drivel I post.

Any time I've entertained the idea of getting my old reputation back, I've tried stifling my ego. Once I do that, the only argument I can really find is the one you made originally - new users might be able to more readily parse. Hopefully the new system regularizes quickly and provides that sort of tool.

 

[Andyw2100]

Hopefully the new system regularizes quickly and provides that sort of tool.

I think the new system will regularize fairly quickly, and will provide a reasonable tool for the new users in pretty short order. But that won't recognize the past contributions of members that may not be contributing the way they once did.

Not that they need me looking out for them on this, and they would probably argue against it, but look at the examples of @bonnie, @NigelM, and @brianman. I could be mistaken, but I believe all three of those members do not post with nearly the regularity they once did. And again, I could be mistaken, but my take on things is that TMC would not be what it is today without the contributions those three made in the past.

Bringing that one number forward, and sticking it on posts recognizes members' historical contributions. In my opinion, that would be a good thing to do!

 

[brianman]

Not that they need me looking out for them on this, and they would probably argue against it, but look at the examples of @bonnie, @NigelM, and @brianman

For me, it's not about the remodel. Life's been busy. It's more about less free time and, um, a declining "interesting : annoying" content ratio.

I suspect it's similar for bonnie and NigelM. Actually, it might also be that I tired them out a bit when they were moderators.

Edit: Regarding my first paragraph, I'm searching for constructive suggestions on how to address that -- at TMC. We've had a lot of drama that in many cases, IMO, can be root caused to "TM made a mis-step". Fixing that isn't something for TMC, but dealing with the split-opinion membership is something we could try to get better at as a community. "How"...still working on that.

@Andyw2100 -- Do you want to start the "Making TMC fun again" thread (Site Feedback sub-forum, I guess)? I started to create it but I think you might be a better person to start it. Request if you do start it -- make sure the focus is clear from the outset to be about users, content, and tone NOT about the formatting of the website itself. Cheers.

 

[omarsultan]

I also find myself spending less time on both TMC and the TM forum, unless there is a specific topic/thread that has my interest.

It used to be that you come to these forums to learn something, to help pass along knowledge to newbies, or simply for entertainment as there are some quite talented and funny folks inhabiting these virtual halls. While you can still find those threads, you have to work a lot harder to find them these days. My interest in both sites is sinking under the weight of all the whining, the hyperbolic thread titles, and the manufactured drama.

My free time is limited--I would not want to spend it with folks that acted like this IRL, not sure I really want to do it online either.

 

[HankLloydRight]

I just noticed a welcome change that improves navigation efficiency a bit.

Previously if one was selecting their "Watched Threads" to find threads with unread posts, after finishing a thread you would either have to scroll to the top of the page and select "Watched Threads" again, to have only your watched threads with unread posts appear, or you could use the "back" button in your browser, but doing that would still show the threads that had unread posts that you had read since the last time you actually selected "Watched Threads."

The improvement is now simply clicking your browser's back button eliminates the thread that you just completed reading.

This sounds like a trivial improvement, but it will speed up the way I, and I expect many others use TMC. So thanks to the admins for implementing this change!

I've read all the other followups, but quoted your original message.

I really think this is just a memory issue on Chrome+Windows... if you have a lot of tabs open, or other apps taking up memory, Chrome will expire the cache and reload the page.

I do exactly what you do on Chrome+Windows7, and my "watched threads" page does not reload.

I don't think anything on the server side changed.

 

[Andyw2100]

@Andyw2100 -- Do you want to start the "Making TMC fun again" thread (Site Feedback sub-forum, I guess)? I started to create it but I think you might be a better person to start it. Request if you do start it -- make sure the focus is clear from the outset to be about users, content, and tone NOT about the formatting of the website itself. Cheers.

Done.

How Can We Make TMC Fun Again?

 

[HankLloydRight]

I also find myself spending less time on the TMC forum, unless there is a specific topic/thread that has my interest.

Sadly, I'm finding myself in this same boat. I can't put my finger on exactly what, but I just don't find the new interface as engaging as the old one. I know there's no going back... on TMC/vB4, I would open and read pretty much every "subscribed thread" with new posts -- and most of that was on Tapatalk.

But now that that's also gone, I just don't have the time on the desktop to open and read every watched thread. And the web interface on the phone and iPad are usable, but extremely tedious, so unless there's a PM or a really important thread I need to keep up on, I just skip it and find something else to do.

Is there any chance you can pow-wow with the Tapatalk guys and figure out a solution that works for everyone? Or is it totally dead-in-the-water, stop-asking kind of thing?

Because it would be really sad if it's the latter.

 

[Andyw2100]

I've read all the other followups, but quoted your original message.

I really think this is just a memory issue on Chrome+Windows... if you have a lot of tabs open, or other apps taking up memory, Chrome will expire the cache and reload the page.

I do exactly what you do on Chrome+Windows7, and my "watched threads" page does not reload.

I don't think anything on the server side changed.

Thanks, Hank.

I do generally keep a lot of windows open in Chrome, but always have. At some point I'll test it with all windows closed (but probably not any time soon.)

I'm wondering if somehow a cookie or something left by the mobile version could also be impacting the "use cached page vs reload page" decision, as that is one thing that changed on my end.

 

[HankLloydRight]

The only difference I can think of on my end is that until recently I had never logged onto the new site using my phone. I did that for the first time a day or two before noticing that difference last night. I can't imagine how or why that would make a difference.

I'm wondering if somehow a cookie or something left by the mobile version could also be impacting the "use cached page vs reload page" decision, as that is one thing that changed on my end.

Cookies are entirely local -- cookies left on your phone for the mobile version would not affect the desktop site. AFAIK, the forum doesn't track your "last access device state" or somesuch. I used iPhone and desktop all the time (well, now not all the time... ) and don't see what you're seeing. Try rebooting your computer and opening just Chrome and TMC and see if the problem (or "feature") persists.

 

[Andyw2100]

Try rebooting your computer and opening just Chrome and TMC and see if the problem (or "feature") persists.

Well, you were on the money!

I did as you suggested, and now the back button behavior is as it was before, and as everyone else is seeing, which apparently means I'm seeing the cached page instead of a freshly loaded page.

Glad we got to the bottom of it, though I did like it better the other way. I may try to fool around with Chrome cache settings or something to see if I can force the behavior I preferred.

 

[JRP3]

A big part of it for me is about not losing the history!

What history is lost? All the posts are still there. It's the content that matters most.

In my opinion, when someone like @bonnie or @wk057 or @FlasherZ or @brianman or @NigelM posts, the work they have done helping to make TMC what it is today should be on display for all to see, even if it is as subtle as a single number. That single number represents something, and there doesn't seem to be a good reason to simply throw it away.

As someone who predates all of them, and most people on this forum, I'm actually less concerned with the past and more focused on the future.

 

[Andyw2100]

What history is lost? All the posts are still there.

The history of what the TMC community as a whole thought of those posts is what is lost.

No one is going to take the time to read @bonnie's 13,648 posts, @NigelM's 13,117 posts or @brianman's 14,708 posts. But if when someone sees a post from Bonnie they also see a note that says "Old Reputation: 3845", those few characters are going to tell quite a story about those 13,500+ posts made while the old reputation system was in effect.

I don't think it is an exaggeration at all to say that the 40,000+ posts made under the old system by the three posters above have been read, literally, millions of times. So millions of times people have decided whether or not those posts were worthy of reputation credit or not. Thousands of times people have decided to award reputation credit for those posts. (I'm guessing when you expand this to the entire reputation system, it becomes millions as well. In other words, reputation has been awarded millions of times.) It is those millions of decisions that are being lost.

Again, I am not suggesting we keep the old system, or start tracking anything with the new system from the old. I am suggesting the addition of one line--a few characters: "Old Reputation: 3845."

It's a compromise that allows for millions of decisions that were a part of the TMC history to remain part of TMC's future.

 

[JRP3]

It is those millions of decisions that are being lost.

I guess I just don't see that as significant. Just because people may have given a post a positive rep doesn't mean it was actually a meaningful post. I've seen plenty of moronic posts on other sites get many "likes" simply because they reinforced the misconceptions of the audience.
Obviously we aren't going to agree on this one, but to me it's just much ado about nothing.

 

[Andyw2100]

Glad we got to the bottom of it, though I did like it better the other way. I may try to fool around with Chrome cache settings or something to see if I can force the behavior I preferred.

So...for anyone who would prefer the back button function the way it had been, briefly, for me, and reload the page, instead of using the cached page, I have a solution if you use Chrome, and I imagine similar solutions are available for other browsers.

For Chrome I found an extension named "Cache Killer." It is enabled or disabled with a single click, so it will be simple enough for me to enable it when I am using this site, or any other site where it may be useful, and disable it elsewhere. I've used it for all of three minutes, just to make sure it works, but it seems to. Take that endorsement for what it's worth.

 

[bonnie]

I guess I just don't see that as significant. Just because people may have given a post a positive rep doesn't mean it was actually a meaningful post. I've seen plenty of moronic posts on other sites get many "likes" simply because they reinforced the misconceptions of the audience.
Obviously we aren't going to agree on this one, but to me it's just much ado about nothing.

I agree with you a lot, JRP, but in this case I'll take exception.

We all filter our beliefs through our own experience, so I'll assume mine is different than yours. I know the types of posts that I gave reputation for - I tried to always give it to the posts that were well thought out (even if I didn't agree), posts that presented alternative points of view, posts that were helpful for new members, and yes, posts that made me laugh. That last one is important - because part of the fun of this forum is the light-hearted banter at times and people who lighten it up should also be recognized.

On the other hand, I've gotten rep for those quick posts -- but very very little for posts having to do with fighting the state dealership battles, for instance. I've put some real work in behind the scenes. And crickets. But I didn't do it for the rep.

I've made exactly one post expressing my disappointment that some data was lost. You may find some of the posts moronic that were given rep ... should we eliminate those, too? The reputation system was imperfect, but as a whole, it operated well.

I have no issue that my old rep doesn't follow me (and Andy, you're way low on points ) -- but I wish that data hadn't been just unilaterally thrown out. It did represent part of the history of the site and it's gone.

But it is gone. Plenty of other stuff to focus upon. I like to pick my battles and this isn't one worth fighting, imo.

 

[Andyw2100]

I've made exactly one post expressing my disappointment that some data was lost. You may find some of the posts moronic that were given rep ... should we eliminate those, too? The reputation system was imperfect, but as a whole, it operated well.

I also hadn't really posted on this issue before today, I don't believe. When such a simple compromise idea hit me, I posted because I thought it would be embraced as a really easy and clean way to pay homage to the past, without having it adversely affect anything in the future.

I have no issue that my old rep doesn't follow me (and Andy, you're way low on points ) -- but I wish that data hadn't been just unilaterally thrown out. It did represent part of the history of the site and it's gone.

But it is gone. Plenty of other stuff to focus upon. I like to pick my battles and this isn't one worth fighting, imo.

I figured I was probably way low, but I was taking a "The Price Is Right" approach.

 

[FlasherZ]

I figured I was probably way low, but I was taking a "The Price Is Right" approach.

In which case, let me offer this: