were these the 19" Tesla Slipstream vs the 21" Tesla Turbines? or some other (lighter?) 21s?
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Newer P90DL makes 662 hp at the battery!!!
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were these the 19" Tesla Slipstream vs the 21" Tesla Turbines? or some other (lighter?) 21s?
It's not unusual for companies to take a fix on failure approach to expensive problems. If it's only going to affect a small percentage of customers and not safety related, it's better to fix the ones who complain. Is this shady or pragmatic? Arguable no doubt.
That's why this site is so valuable. Before spending the extra $10,000 on the ludicrous upgrade, I was able to come here and see what the real deal was. I checked my battery part no. before taking delivery and used can bus to check the actual power. I know early adopters have less info, but we thank you for your service.
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Do they provide any information about where the weight is shaved from. Is it more out at the rims or just overall?
How do they compare to the weight of the 19's?
Tesla doesn't acknowledge the problem in the first place. By example I've complained for a year that my car lost 12 miles of rated range since it was just 3 months old. Initially they acknowledged the issue and promised a software fix. Now they are saying there will be no software fix and that my car is "within the specs of the fleet". That's a very common response from them; provide a response without any data to support it. Just start looking through this forum if you don't want to take my word for it. It leaves the owner with a choice of invoking the Lemmon law process, suing them or accept it. We shouldn't be given just bad choices, they should be honest and admit things.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
Believe me I feel your pain. Mercedes screwed me over on not honoring a warranty repair, and I never did business with them again. I was buying $100,000 plus cars from them every year and half and they screwed me on a $10,000 warranty claim. I then loved my BMW's until Telsa came along.
I talked to an attorney at the time, and he advised me not to pursue a case because they would spend lots of money and time to avoid paying because it would set a precedent.
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And I feel yours. The difference in my experience is Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Lexus never screwed me and always admitted and fixed problems like you suggested upthread Tesla should do.
Mercedes would never admit their problem even after I found a service bulletin that addressed it. They just told me tough s**t. But the back and forth phone calls and emails did provide information on how they do business. I was stonewalled all the way up the line.
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Tesla has told a few in here to go pound sand.
If some of their postings are any indication as to how they communicate with others when things aren't looked at in the same manner as they look at them, well then it's not hard to see how some of them got that "advice".
I agree with St Charles that coming out and telling them that you are taking the car off road and running it on s racing surface and obtaining times (notice I didn't say anything about "racing" tippy), is s very bad idea.
Many warranties, I don't know about this one, have a statement about "abuse" and what constitutes it.
"Off road", and yes a track is not a public road and might be considered off road, and damage sustained off road, is not eligible for warranty coverage.
However to the point about "racing", well, how many videos have we seen where there was was car, regardless if make or model, in the other lane?
Both running for a time slip.
How many descriptions, pics, battery numbers, indeed some in here think it's a good idea to put up VIN numbers, what Superchargers they charged at before heading to the track, etc.
They probably can tell just who in here, or a lot of who in here, is tracking their car if they wanted to anyway and start screwing with those people's warranties right now if they really wanted to screw people.
If they studied on it long enough they could possibly do it without running into invasion of privacy issues.
All they would need do when you brought your car in with this "complaint", would be to require you to sign an affidavit attesting that you had not been racing the car, or that it had not been in a track.
And have you acknowledge that it had not and that you had adhered to the requirements in the warranty.
Otherwise it's out of warranty.
Since one member has already indicated that "silence means guilt", well there you go if you refuse to sign it.
One has asked why I haven't put my car on the track. There are s number of issues to consider when it comes to that. From insurance matters, you aren't insured on a drag strip. And that could extend not just to some car insurances, but in some cases can extend down to some major medical plans, and indeed all the way down to some life insurance policies. (Anyone recall being asked if they raced cars or motorcycles or did any skydiving when they applied for a life insurance policy? I was)
Vbox on a public road is another bad idea. It is an admission of breaking the law and in some states which have such a law, would amount to felony speeding, which is of course a more serious offense than just speeding.
Again it would possibly be a matter of them determining where, when, and providing the video to the local authorities. Or giving them a heads up as to where the next "exhibition of speed" was likely to occur.
You don't want to play hardball with Tesla over this matter. You will very likely lose.
They have a number of ways to tell who is racing or tracking and some of those ways might not involve triggering or invoking invasion of privacy issues.
At some point this matter will fade into the sunset as the car moves into obsolescence.
But that number will stay and there's not much that can be done about it.
If some of their postings are any indication as to how they communicate with others when things aren't looked at in the same manner as they look at them, well then it's not hard to see how some of them got that "advice".
I agree with St Charles that coming out and telling them that you are taking the car off road and running it on s racing surface and obtaining times (notice I didn't say anything about "racing" tippy), is s very bad idea.
Many warranties, I don't know about this one, have a statement about "abuse" and what constitutes it.
"Off road", and yes a track is not a public road and might be considered off road, and damage sustained off road, is not eligible for warranty coverage.
However to the point about "racing", well, how many videos have we seen where there was was car, regardless if make or model, in the other lane?
Both running for a time slip.
How many descriptions, pics, battery numbers, indeed some in here think it's a good idea to put up VIN numbers, what Superchargers they charged at before heading to the track, etc.
They probably can tell just who in here, or a lot of who in here, is tracking their car if they wanted to anyway and start screwing with those people's warranties right now if they really wanted to screw people.
If they studied on it long enough they could possibly do it without running into invasion of privacy issues.
All they would need do when you brought your car in with this "complaint", would be to require you to sign an affidavit attesting that you had not been racing the car, or that it had not been in a track.
And have you acknowledge that it had not and that you had adhered to the requirements in the warranty.
Otherwise it's out of warranty.
Since one member has already indicated that "silence means guilt", well there you go if you refuse to sign it.
One has asked why I haven't put my car on the track. There are s number of issues to consider when it comes to that. From insurance matters, you aren't insured on a drag strip. And that could extend not just to some car insurances, but in some cases can extend down to some major medical plans, and indeed all the way down to some life insurance policies. (Anyone recall being asked if they raced cars or motorcycles or did any skydiving when they applied for a life insurance policy? I was)
Vbox on a public road is another bad idea. It is an admission of breaking the law and in some states which have such a law, would amount to felony speeding, which is of course a more serious offense than just speeding.
Again it would possibly be a matter of them determining where, when, and providing the video to the local authorities. Or giving them a heads up as to where the next "exhibition of speed" was likely to occur.
You don't want to play hardball with Tesla over this matter. You will very likely lose.
They have a number of ways to tell who is racing or tracking and some of those ways might not involve triggering or invoking invasion of privacy issues.
At some point this matter will fade into the sunset as the car moves into obsolescence.
But that number will stay and there's not much that can be done about it.
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Very well said. Excellent points all the way around.
But you know what?
With the passing of each day, the matter gets closer to becoming moot.
The P90DL is taking a back seat to the P100DL and as time passes will no longer dominate the discussion.
The Model 3 will come to the forefront as well.
"P90DL is a 10.9 car", well that's what is written in a well respected periodical, Motor Trend and in Tesla's old advertising descriptions.
Both will remain for anyone to see, because neither Tesla nor Motor Trend appears to be ready to take their statements back.
It doesn't matter whether some of us think it's the truth or not and are mad because we think thatvit isn't, ......that statement made by the both of them is there and it's not going away.
I'm not the one who believes in conspiracy theories and "cover ups".
But some in your camp are.
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lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
Yep. I'm bad.
It's all my fault. I should have done a better job telling Elon what to do.
i'll weigh the 19" later today, it's a custom 21" 1 piece forged wheel, so there is no comparison to a stock wheel like that... all I have is the weight differences... will be interesting to see how much the new Tesla arachnid wheels weigh....
I'm close to replacing my p85+, but have heard that tesla's trade-in values aren't very good. How do you feel about what they offered for trade?
Yesterday I went to the Fontana dragstrip to try out the latest software version 8. My P85DL did 11.374 @ 117.04 which was .034 better than 3 weeks ago but .048 slower than my best at this track. After 6 runs my conclusion is 8.2.36.108 did not help which is what I expected.This was my third event in 3 weeks at 2 different tracks so I am certainly not concerned about warranty problems or afraid in getting in an accident to justify not trying to get the unattainable 10.9 or life insurance.
Afterward I drove to the sand drags 50 miles further. It was nice to see old friends again and they reminded me of my crash 20 years ago when the wheelie bar broke and I went straight up and over demolishing my aluminum roll cage. By the way my insurance company paid for my 2 day stay in the hospital. One friend said his highlite was beating me in the Top Eliminator finals even though I had the lower ET.
Afterward I drove to the sand drags 50 miles further. It was nice to see old friends again and they reminded me of my crash 20 years ago when the wheelie bar broke and I went straight up and over demolishing my aluminum roll cage. By the way my insurance company paid for my 2 day stay in the hospital. One friend said his highlite was beating me in the Top Eliminator finals even though I had the lower ET.
So now we aren't allowed to test our own vehicles or we'll be polygraphed and reported to the authorities. Come on. If tesla offers a warranty, they have to show that something you did damaged the car to be able to refuse repair. Taking your car to a drag strip to safely test it off of public roads is not racing. It's no different than merging in with traffic. They're saying that if you're using your car every weekend in rally races they are not going to cover your damages.
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I'm not talking polygraphs. But ""anise " is open to interpretation.
Let me ask you something.
If you bust something "testing" your vehicle, should the manufacturer be required to pay for it?
Should the manufacturer sponsor your "testing" efforts?
How about your "testing and tuning" efforts, even if the "tuning" part of it is just refining your launch techniques.
You want to "test" your vehicle, they can in turn argue "fine, go ahead and test away. But you'll do it on your own dime. We aren't going to make ourselves vulnerable for covering the effects, cumulative or immediate, of your testing efforts"
No offense, but I don't know how much experience you have with this sort of thing, but from your statement above, I'm going to guess that it isn't a whole lot.
Do you recall the Subaru matter?
You Break it, You Buy it: Whether abuse or autocrossing, most automakers are not covering it
Don't think for on minute that an auto manufacturer can't come at your warranty if it's discovered that your car is being tracked.
But tippy, while we are having this discussion take a look:
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/Model_S_New_Vehicle_Limited_Warranty_201602_en_NA.pdf
"Warranty Limitations
This New Vehicle Limited Warranty does not cover any vehicle damage or malfunction directly or indirectly caused by, due to or resulting from normal wear or deterioration, abuse, misuse, negligence, accident, improper maintenance, operation, storage or transport, including, but not limited to, any of the following:
- Failure to take the vehicle to a Tesla Service Center or Tesla authorized repair facility upon discovery of a defect covered by this New Vehicle Limited Warranty;
- Accidents, collisions, or objects striking the vehicle;
- Any repair, alteration or modification of the vehicle, or the installation or use of fluids, parts or
accessories, made by a person or facility not authorized or certified to do so;
- Improper repair or maintenance, including use of fluids, parts or accessories other than those
specified in your owner documentation;
- Towing the vehicle;
- Improper winch procedures;
- Theft, vandalism, or riot;
- Fire, explosion, earthquake, windstorm, lightning, hail, flood, or deep water;
- Driving the vehicle off-road, over uneven, rough, damaged or hazardous surfaces, including
but not limited to, curbs, potholes, unfinished roads, debris, or other obstacles, or in competition, racing or autocross or for any other purposes for which the vehicle is not designed;
- Overloading the vehicle;
- Using the vehicle as a stationary power source; and
- The environment or an act of God, including, but not limited to, exposure to sunlight, airborne
chemicals, tree sap, animal or insect droppings, road debris (including stone chips), industry fallout, rail dust, salt, hail, floods, wind storms, acid rain, fire, water, contamination, lightning and other environmental conditions.
Try and tell them that you weren't "racing" if you are funning a timed event. Which is what a quarter mile pass is, a timed event. Doesn't matter if another car was lined up aside from you in the other lane. it can be argued that you were matching times against another opponent's previous time. Let us know how you come out
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I have no proof but anecdotally believe that the Tesla sales and service organizations have undergone a significant shift in the kind of person hired, not just the numbers of people. Back in 2013, the people I almost always encountered in these organizations were new to the automotive industry; young; idealistic. The few older folk I encountered -- by which I mean, people with some previous time in the auto industry -- almost always seemed cut from different cloth compared to traditional automotive sales/service people, in a very positive way. They were taking a risk joining an upstart auto manufacturer, and so seemed to have backstories that included an ill fit with traditional dealers and manufacturers.
Fast forward to 2016... still lots of enthusiasm and energy in the sales and service teams. A lot of the service guys continue to work killer hours and routinely go above and beyond to take care of their customers. There has been an influx of traditional automotive service types into this organization, but it feels as if they are more willing to adopt Tesla's DNA than to transplant old, bitter auto dealer DNA.
But the sales staff... well... I still have good things to say about them. But there was a change a while back where they switched to a commission mechanism. I heard they switched back but don't know what to believe. It's incredibly corrosive (at least for me) in how I feel about a sale when the sales guy is on commission versus flat salary. And now it seems that nearly all the sales people I run into have prior auto dealer selling experience. Anywhere from a year on up. It feels a lot more like many of them are "selling product" rather than selling an early arrival from a better future(*). I hear a lot more from these new people about buying a car NOW and a lot less from them about strengths and weaknesses
In 2013, the sales guy attempted to talk me OUT of the "+" and other options for my P85, on the basis that I wouldn't really need them. He was absolutely right; he did me a great service by speaking to me honestly; he built credibility with me in and instant; I still talk about this guy over 3 years later; and I felt like the organization that trained him had my best interests at heart. Definitely shocked him when I grabbed him by the collar, shook him (gently), and asked him what part of "mid-life crisis" he didn't understand.
I'm less confident that the conversation would go the same way today. I'm still in the throes of my mid-life crisis and thinking of replacing my P85+ with a P100DL. Where is the Tesla salesman today who would tell me that the 90D is a better value for my money? (And whose advice I could then feel good about, even as I rejected it and proceeded to buy a loaded P100DL.)
I think what we see is a Tesla that has made the transition from early-adopting, aggressive, shoot-from-the-lip, willing-to-admit-error automotive startup to make-the-numbers startup. There's probably a lot more discussion within the company about the value of process over heroics; the importance of policy; right-sizing; scaling to 500K units per year ("act like that now! make decisions for the Tesla of 2018, not the Tesla of today; don't wait!"); and so on. Necessary, important discussions and changes. You gotta grow and change to survive. But if you're not careful, you can lose a lot of good DNA along the way, and take a knock with the customer base that invested faith, time and dollars in you while you were still major-league risky.
IMHO, BTW, Engineering is usually the last organization affected because people are afraid to f*ck with the goose that's laying the golden eggs. But eventually...
In short, I think the opposite of you, @Lola: "adults" have been hired, who see their predecessors as the "kids at business", and who are busy "fixing" lots of things. Some of those things are probably badly broken and in dire need of fixing. Others are... well... silly ways of doing business, which anyone who has grown up in BMW, Mercedes and other sales organizations "just knows" can't be scaled up. ("Acknowledge a problem with our specs from a year ago? That's insane! P85DEE will be out there forcing people to sue us!")
Alan
(*)Damn, I like that phrase.
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