NHTSA asks Tesla to recall 158,000 [now 135,000] vehicles for eMMC failure. Voluntary Recall issued

[stopcrazypp]

Can he choose to?

He could say no, but NHTSA will continue to pursue so there will be some back and forth. I asked in the other thread if there was ever a record of an automaker successfully disputing a mandatory recall (which this is looking to be heading toward given it was initiated/requested by NHTSA investigation).

But in a practical sense, given Tesla is already doing the warranty extension and 64GB eMMC, I don't see any good reason to say no.

 

[gearchruncher]

Can he choose to?

He can't just choose to ignore NHTSA if they issue an involuntary recall. The federal government has all sorts of solutions if Tesla ignores the recall, and they would also be flooded with civil lawsuits that they would lose.

 

[stopcrazypp]

This was designed in 2011. 8GB was pretty large, and Tesla was designing their first car. I can see how it happened. They had no idea how many cars they would sell with it.

This does not excuse how they are dealing with their earlier failures in 2021 however, while being the highest valued car company in the world by many multiples.

Note highest valued in the stock market is largely irrelevant to how much money/resources they have available to address this issue (they have to make public offerings to convert that stock price to actual money for the company). That's a difference a lot of people don't understand. In terms of actual cash and revenue they are still a relatively small company.

 

[gearchruncher]

But in a practical sense, given Tesla is already doing the warranty extension and 64GB eMMC, I don't see any good reason to say no.

This is Tesla. They will set a very high threshold for the warranty replacement like they already have (the failure is not binary), and hope that must customers just buy a new Tesla and the old ones depreciate due to the old unreliable HW. Then they'll only end up replacing 15K units instead of 150K, and the owners will have very little recourse when Tesla doesn't have parts in stock for 6 months.

Having an official "safety" recall on your car means you have to actually have a plan to replace them all that NHTSA agrees to, which is going to be much harder for Tesla.

 

[MP3Mike]

He can't just choose to ignore NHTSA if they issue an involuntary recall. The federal government has all sorts of solutions if Tesla ignores the recall, and they would also be flooded with civil lawsuits that they would lose.

The point is that NHTSA hasn't issued an involuntary recall yet. They have asked Tesla to perform a voluntary recall. Tesla can respond and explain why they don't think it warrants a recall, to which then NHTSA would have to decide what to do next.

 

[gearchruncher]

Note highest valued in the stock market is largely irrelevant to how much money/resources they have available to address this issue (they have to make public offerings to convert that stock price to actual money for the company). That's a difference a lot of people don't understand. In terms of actual cash and revenue they are still a relatively small company.

This was more a knock on the silly stock valuation. If Tesla can't handle recalling 10% of their vehicles for a $500 per vehicle cost, then they don't deserve that valuation because they haven't proved they are a really viable company. 10% recalls happen all the time in automotive.

 

[tontod]

This was more a knock on the silly stock valuation. If Tesla can't handle recalling 10% of their vehicles for a $500 per vehicle cost, then they don't deserve that valuation because they haven't proved they are a really viable company. 10% recalls happen all the time in automotive.

I would think it would have to involve replacing the MCU. I've been told my eMMC is fine, despite the reboots, long reboot time, etc. The CPU is supposedly the bottleneck in my case, but I get the same or similar symptoms as a failing eMMC. I'm sure there are others. Though I'm sure my eMMC will fail eventually too.

 

[aerodyne]

He can't just choose to ignore NHTSA if they issue an involuntary recall. The federal government has all sorts of solutions if Tesla ignores the recall, and they would also be flooded with civil lawsuits that they would lose.

All it takes is one fatality alleged to have been caused by an MCU failure, that was known about, reported, denied replacement by SvC, in violation of published Tesla SB procedure (talking to you, home directory clearing dude) and the damage to the brand will be huge.

This is a ticking bomb every day they do not issue a voluntarily recall.

 

[dannycamps]

I keep reading this about the federally mandated backup camera. That actually didn’t become “required” until 2018. So really, it probably has more to do with the defrost. I don’t see how they could enforce the backup camera issue unless they interpret it as no longer functional, even if not required at the time.

It's more about things like directional lights. The fact that the functionality is lost or degraded (e.g. the driver cannot tell if they are operable without getting outside of the car and looking) makes it a safety issue. The backup camera is only part of it. There are many critical functions of the car tied to the MCU like the ability to control headlights, climate, traction control, etc...

This is why pretty much every other auto manufacturer has a strong Six Sigma style quality process to root out defects that will cause safety issues or get the government's attention (and even with those, they still make mistakes like everyone does, just at a far, far smaller rate--and often the mistake comes from a part supplier that didn't build the part to the spec they asked for).

The millions of car owners with Takata airbags would probably take issue with this statement. It always comes down to the bottom line for manufacturers - cost vs.quality compromise. Maybe in 2009/2010 when Tesla first designed the Model S they didn't envision software updates increasing in size and power demands every few weeks eventually putting a strain on the limited processor and strained memory chip.

The point is that NHTSA hasn't issued an involuntary recall yet. They have asked Tesla to perform a voluntary recall. Tesla can respond and explain why they don't think it warrants a recall, to which then NHTSA would have to decide what to do next.

The next step will probably be a mandatory recall if Tesla does not voluntarily offer one.

 

[stopcrazypp]

This is Tesla. They will set a very high threshold for the warranty replacement like they already have (the failure is not binary), and hope that must customers just buy a new Tesla and the old ones depreciate due to the old unreliable HW. Then they'll only end up replacing 15K units instead of 150K, and the owners will have very little recourse when Tesla doesn't have parts in stock for 6 months.

Having an official "safety" recall on your car means you have to actually have a plan to replace them all that NHTSA agrees to, which is going to be much harder for Tesla.

Sure, it'll cost them more money if it was an actual recall (note as others point out they can still drag things longer even in the case of a recall, and set similar terms for replacement as they are doing), but my point is given they have a relatively inexpensive solution (at least in terms of parts) it's a better situation than if they still have not figured how to resolve the issue or if the solution would mean much higher hardware costs. For example if the issue meant all MCU1s have to be replaced by MCU2 or even a complete redesign that would be a completely different matter.

 

[ucmndd]

Sure, it'll cost them more money if it was an actual recall (note as others point out they can still drag things longer even in the case of a recall, and set similar terms for replacement as they are doing), by my point is given they have a relatively inexpensive solution (at least in terms of parts) it's a better situation than if they still have not figured how to resolve the issue or if the solution would mean much higher hardware costs. For example if the issue meant all MCU1s have to be replaced by MCU2 or even a complete redesign that would be a completely different matter.

Agree, this one is an easy call for them to just roll over on, and indeed every move they've made suggests they've been preparing for the likelihood of needing to.

 

[whitex]

They’ll do the recall and give everyone the new Tegra board with the bigger chip.

say it costs them $500/car, even the full 158,000 cars costs them less than $80 million. No big deal.

Yea, they can cover $80M without blinking an eye with a single Elon tweet and either going long or shorting on some TSLA stock.

That said, Tegra board might not work as a complete fix. There is also an issue of the actual touch controller (which is required for defog/defrost controls for example) which also goes out on the MCU1 requiring a long reboot cycle to get it back. You don't realize it until you're driving and need the defogger. There used to be a message the car would display on the IC that touch is not responding, but they either removed it or it broke and QA is not testing it, or the touch screen develops a new failure mode which cannot be detected, since I haven't seen that message in a while, and I estimate I have about 50:50 chance my touch is out when I get into the car to drive it after the car sitting parked for few days. Not fun if you get on a highway and realize your windows are fogging up but you need 5+ minutes to reboot the car.

 

[Nuclear Fusion]

We owe the NHTSA a drink! At least 10 times between speaking with Tesla and/or taking it in for service. They keep telling us they fixed the issue or we need to wait because there a software fix coming. It’s been over a year. We can’t access anything from the touchscreen: no back-up camera, AC, heat, radio, etc. When it does work, it’s a 30 second delay before the screen changes.

Forget the fact that we paid $130k for our X P100D, try having to drive your infant around in a car where the A/C and Heat are uncontrollable or the lack of safety because your back-up camera doesn’t work.

We can’t believe we turned on so many people onto Tesla. We were there for Tesla, but Tesla hasn’t been there for us.

Check out the level of denial in the Tesla Roundtable Investors thread
They just stick their fingers in their ears & sing la la la if anything negative is said about Tesla
Tesla has been caught with their pants down & now it’s going to be a big price to pay
The funny thing is they axed their PR department

 

[Chaserr]

You think so? Batterygate/chargegate recall would absolutely destroy them.

This is why I have been begging Tesla to sell battery replacement If they let those of us willing to pay extra help them out it offsets costs and reduces how many recalls are issued. MCU2 upgraders don't get recalled or refunds. Why can't Tesla let us help them out with batterygate before the recalls are ordered?

 

[Merle]

I would think it would have to involve replacing the MCU. I've been told my eMMC is fine, despite the reboots, long reboot time, etc. The CPU is supposedly the bottleneck in my case, but I get the same or similar symptoms as a failing eMMC. I'm sure there are others. Though I'm sure my eMMC will fail eventually too.

I had the daughter-board replacement and it simply doesn't help solve the core problem, though it did solve my problem about a black/bricked MCU1

* Random reboots
* Freezes / lagging
* Disabling of Autopilot

Went back to the dealership and at the time (30-45 days ago) was told that there was no option to replace the MCU1 for the vehicle. They only were able to reflash the firmware (which meant reprogramming everything, including the garage door).

It's more about things like directional lights. The fact that the functionality is lost or degraded (e.g. the driver cannot tell if they are operable without getting outside of the car and looking) makes it a safety issue. The backup camera is only part of it. There are many critical functions of the car tied to the MCU like the ability to control headlights, climate, traction control, etc...

The millions of car owners with Takata airbags would probably take issue with this statement. It always comes down to the bottom line for manufacturers - cost vs.quality compromise. Maybe in 2009/2010 when Tesla first designed the Model S they didn't envision software updates increasing in size and power demands every few weeks eventually putting a strain on the limited processor and strained memory chip.

The next step will probably be a mandatory recall if Tesla does not voluntarily offer one.

This. Absolutely.

Driving last night I had the MCU1 crash in Spotify while driving at 3AM. First it hung (stopped playing music, ambient lights in the doors went off and then on) then the system rebooted on a windy stretch of US 50. Once that was done, the autopilot function was disabled (yellow warning, constantly on) and couldn't be re-enabled even though I did pull over and put it into park-drive (same as if the auto-pilot is normally temporarily disabled.

It wasn't until I hit a supercharger and walked away from the car did it come back on.

The other safety issue is if you have your mirrors folded, ventilation settings and even sunroof ... nothing works. Imagine trying to drive to a service center w/o an MCU and the mirrors are folded in, plus it's too hot/cold to the extent that you have no ventilation!

 

[NHK X]

I had the daughter-board replacement and it simply doesn't help solve the core problem, though it did solve my problem about a black/bricked MCU1

* Random reboots
* Freezes / lagging
* Disabling of Autopilot

Went back to the dealership and at the time (30-45 days ago) was told that there was no option to replace the MCU1 for the vehicle. They only were able to reflash the firmware (which meant reprogramming everything, including the garage door).



This. Absolutely.

Driving last night I had the MCU1 crash in Spotify while driving at 3AM. First it hung (stopped playing music, ambient lights in the doors went off and then on) then the system rebooted on a windy stretch of US 50. Once that was done, the autopilot function was disabled (yellow warning, constantly on) and couldn't be re-enabled even though I did pull over and put it into park-drive (same as if the auto-pilot is normally temporarily disabled.

It wasn't until I hit a supercharger and walked away from the car did it come back on.

The other safety issue is if you have your mirrors folded, ventilation settings and even sunroof ... nothing works. Imagine trying to drive to a service center w/o an MCU and the mirrors are folded in, plus it's too hot/cold to the extent that you have no ventilation!

Exactly this. Unless you live with this everyday you don’t understand how frustrating it is... especially for a 100k car that’s 3 years old.

Did they say an MCU2 upgrade was not possible? Or they just didn’t want to address it?

 

[aerodyne]

Yea, they can cover $80M without blinking an eye with a single Elon tweet and either going long or shorting on some TSLA stock.

That said, Tegra board might not work as a complete fix. There is also an issue of the actual touch controller (which is required for defog/defrost controls for example) which also goes out on the MCU1 requiring a long reboot cycle to get it back. You don't realize it until you're driving and need the defogger. There used to be a message the car would display on the IC that touch is not responding, but they either removed it or it broke and QA is not testing it, or the touch screen develops a new failure mode which cannot be detected, since I haven't seen that message in a while, and I estimate I have about 50:50 chance my touch is out when I get into the car to drive it after the car sitting parked for few days. Not fun if you get on a highway and realize your windows are fogging up but you need 5+ minutes to reboot the car.

Did not know about the touch controller problem. Can voice commands help in this case? I know I can turn on floor vent and climate via voice commands...

 

[trm2]

Voice commands? They haven’t worked in my car for about a year now. They were flawless when I picked up the car. Now I’m told it will be fixed with the next update. (And have been for several updates)

 

[viper2ko]

Speculation on my part but I think Tesla plans to reject the recall request. MCU1 was pushed the holiday update last night just a day after the big recall news. I think that was done intentionally to harbor some positive will or news from MCU1 owners because Tesla plans to reject the recall and say they have done enough to not warrant a full recall

 

[David.85D]

My guess is the Biden administration will be less tolerant of a light regulatory touch. Doubt they will get a pass on this.

Also have a scheduled customer pay daughter board replacement coming up and deciding what’s the best move now. Suspect supplies will be hard to get for quite some time if they are forced to do the full recall