Nissan Leaf as a battery

[SalisburySam]

What was the battery warranty? That sounds like too much loss unless most of it happened after the warranty expired?

There was the 8-year battery warranty. Then to address large numbers of failures due to hot weather in areas like Phoenix, Nissan instituted an additional 5-year warranty. In both cases the warranty is triggered solely by the number of capacity bars on the dash indicator. You had to lose more than 4 of the 12 capacity bars to qualify. In the case of my vehicle, the number of capacity bars has had little to do with my actual range strangely. Even today I have 8 capacity bars for my 30-mile range and would still not qualify for battery replacement on that basis (and no longer within the 8 years anyway), despite the range loss early on and to this day. At my annual service appointments (wipers, cabin filter, fluid top-offs, tire rotations), I did have Service look at why the range was diminishing so badly but the number of capacity bars remained high. The answer each time was the expected one: “Your vehicle is performing to specifications” because the capacity bars never went low enough to trigger a claim.

 

[essaunders]

There was the 8-year battery warranty. Then to address large numbers of failures due to hot weather in areas like Phoenix, Nissan instituted an additional 5-year warranty. In both cases the warranty is triggered solely by the number of capacity bars on the dash indicator. You had to lose more than 4 of the 12 capacity bars to qualify. In the case of my vehicle, the number of capacity bars has had little to do with my actual range strangely. Even today I have 8 capacity bars for my 30-mile range and would still not qualify for battery replacement on that basis (and no longer within the 8 years anyway), despite the range loss early on and to this day. At my annual service appointments (wipers, cabin filter, fluid top-offs, tire rotations), I did have Service look at why the range was diminishing so badly but the number of capacity bars remained high. The answer each time was the expected one: “Your vehicle is performing to specifications” because the capacity bars never went low enough to trigger a claim.

(I guess I can't complain too much about my 10 bars... )

I will complain about the pointless expense of the annual battery inspections though. glad that's a thing of the past...

 

[Redhill_qik]

There was the 8-year battery warranty. Then to address large numbers of failures due to hot weather in areas like Phoenix, Nissan instituted an additional 5-year warranty. In both cases the warranty is triggered solely by the number of capacity bars on the dash indicator. You had to lose more than 4 of the 12 capacity bars to qualify. In the case of my vehicle, the number of capacity bars has had little to do with my actual range strangely. Even today I have 8 capacity bars for my 30-mile range and would still not qualify for battery replacement on that basis (and no longer within the 8 years anyway), despite the range loss early on and to this day. At my annual service appointments (wipers, cabin filter, fluid top-offs, tire rotations), I did have Service look at why the range was diminishing so badly but the number of capacity bars remained high. The answer each time was the expected one: “Your vehicle is performing to specifications” because the capacity bars never went low enough to trigger a claim.

That is just a crazy response and seems like something a lawyer might taken on as it might get turned into a class action. What happens with charging? Are you seeing the same amount of charge go in as you did originally (say at the 20% level to 100% it takes ~30kWH) or is half of that (~15kWh).

I've never had any significant issues with my cars, but I've heard that escalating to corporate service when you aren't getting expected support from your local dealer can work. I think that it is a reasonable ask to have them explain why you are seeing the range decrease that you are seeing and that it should be something covered under warranty. Maybe it is the battery and it is still covered or maybe another component has failed (drive motor, HVAC, etc) is now drawing a lot more current than on day one and isn't covered.

Your experience is the primary reason why I waited until this year to get an EV and why I bought a Tesla. I was worried about long term degradation of the battery impacting the usability and resellability as I tend to keep my cars for 8-10 years and the reliability (fires, something just shorts/dies). Tesla customer support sucks and they don't have local dealerships that want to keep you happy so you buy another vehicle to make up for it, but they have produced far more "full size" EVs than anyone else and have accumulated a lot more real world data on battery performance, charging and construction that anyone else which gave me more confidence in the purchase.

Note: I did get the M3 RWD with a LFP battery which is new for Tesla, so I am crossing my fingers a bit on that aspect. It does have less components (battery cells, drive motors) which statistically should result in less failures.

 

[cali8484]

I really have no way to wire easily after the gateway. And since I have 2 gateways, it gets even worse, what part of my house would I use it for.

Hoping to hear from the co on how they recommend it being wired.

Dont' know your exact setup but I assume the gateways must work in sync in terms of isolating from the grid during grid outages if they are connected to the same house circuits.

 

[h2ofun]

That is just a crazy response and seems like something a lawyer might taken on as it might get turned into a class action. What happens with charging? Are you seeing the same amount of charge go in as you did originally (say at the 20% level to 100% it takes ~30kWH) or is half of that (~15kWh).

I've never had any significant issues with my cars, but I've heard that escalating to corporate service when you aren't getting expected support from your local dealer can work. I think that it is a reasonable ask to have them explain why you are seeing the range decrease that you are seeing and that it should be something covered under warranty. Maybe it is the battery and it is still covered or maybe another component has failed (drive motor, HVAC, etc) is now drawing a lot more current than on day one and isn't covered.

Your experience is the primary reason why I waited until this year to get an EV and why I bought a Tesla. I was worried about long term degradation of the battery impacting the usability and resellability as I tend to keep my cars for 8-10 years and the reliability (fires, something just shorts/dies). Tesla customer support sucks and they don't have local dealerships that want to keep you happy so you buy another vehicle to make up for it, but they have produced far more "full size" EVs than anyone else and have accumulated a lot more real world data on battery performance, charging and construction that anyone else which gave me more confidence in the purchase.

Note: I did get the M3 RWD with a LFP battery which is new for Tesla, so I am crossing my fingers a bit on that aspect. It does have less components (battery cells, drive motors) which statistically should result in less failures.

I just talked to a person who has a Tesla. seems they could not get anyone to fix a tire. They said the service is SO bad they are selling the Tesla. My ICE cars look better all the time

 

[Vines]

I just talked to a person who has a Tesla. seems they could not get anyone to fix a tire. They said the service is SO bad they are selling the Tesla. My ICE cars look better all the time

Some people cannot get anything done themselves, this is a fact. My service experiences have been decent, and pretty infrequent. There were a couple times I had hard to fix issues, but in both cases another follow-up appointment solved it.

I have 110k miles on my model 3 performance and have driven it crazy places out of the way. 2 different times I had to get emergency tire service in a road trip and both times I was on the way same day. One time was in Arizona on Friday, the other was a Saturday in Oregon. Both times I was able to get a set of tires installed in less than 1 day.

In another case with just 1 bad tire, roadside service drove one loaner rim out to me so I could drive to the tire shop.

The best case scenario for V2G is for the charger to use the same inverter signal that other inverters use in a powerwall system - frequency shifting. I'll follow this with interest and see what you learn.

 

[Redhill_qik]

I just talked to a person who has a Tesla. seems they could not get anyone to fix a tire. They said the service is SO bad they are selling the Tesla. My ICE cars look better all the time

IMHO, Musk is a die hard engineer. If it isn't development or manufacturing it is an expense that he doesn't care about it and doesn't want it on the books. So no marketing (more demand than supply), no PR (he will just tweet) and as little customer support/service as possible. This has worked for Tesla for now as has the startup mentality of spending money to move fast to become the dominant force in the space. Rolling out Superchargers nationwide has secured prime real estate and first mover advantage on the grid infrastructure which addresses the range concerns for Tesla vehicles only and will be very difficult for anyone else to replicate.

The rest of the automobile industry has finally woken up and is serious about EV development and they are making the moves necessary to secure the critical materials to build EVs, but they still have a long way to go. One of my top criteria for an EV was the efficiency/MPGe as that would dictate how much it would cost to run and also how much time would be needed to charge it. The Model 3 RWD sits at the top of the list with 0.255kWh/mile, the Lucid Air is a recent addition coming in at 0.257 (+0.8%), Model Y at 0.260 (+2.0%), Kona at 0.280 (+9.8%), Bolt at 0.281 (+10.2%), Model S at 0.282 (+10.6%), bZ4X at 0.283 (+11.0%), EV6 (+13.7%), IONIQ 5 (17.6%) and then it gets even worse from there. This will change

If Musk wants subsidies for building new Superchargers then the SC will need to also work for non-Tesla. The automobile industry will get/develop improved motors and lighter weight batteries for improved efficiency. The landscape in 5 years will be very different than today and Tesla will need to addres its shortcomings if Musk wants to sell 20M cars in 2030.

 

[Redhill_qik]

I really have no way to wire easily after the gateway. And since I have 2 gateways, it gets even worse, what part of my house would I use it for.

Hoping to hear from the co on how they recommend it being wired.

The dcbel doesn't seem to play well with others from their FAQ:

2.8 Is dcbel™ a back up power system?
dcbel™ uses your EV’s battery and/or separate stationary battery as a back up power source by acting as a battery charger/inverter. However, you still need to provide the stationary battery and EV - dcbel™ does not come with one.

2.11 Can dcbel™ use a Tesla Powerwall as stationary battery?
dcbel™ does not currently support a Tesla Powerwall as it has its own inverter and logic that is not designed to be compatible with other inverters.

3.5 I already have solar panels and want to install a dcbel™. Will it be compatible with my system?
Your solar panels have been sized to work with your existing inverters which may have specifications that are materially different from dcbel™’s. In retrofit situations, we must review your unique installation to determine if the panel array configuration and wiring is compatible with dcbel™. We encourage you to read the dcbel™ Solar Guide for more information on dcbel™’s solar inverter functionalities.

3.6 Is dcbelTM compatible with my existing solar inverter?
dcbelTM itself is a solar inverter and thus not compatible with other solar inverters. It can, however, run in parallel to your existing solar inverter and be installed to benefit solely from the dual EV charging and blackout power functionality, and be connected to your solar panels once your current system fails. In that case, you would not be able to benefit from solar charging or take full advantage of the optimization and energy management benefits provided by
Orchestrate. We encourage you to read the dcbel™ Solar Guide for more information on dcbel™’s solar inverter functionalities

 

[h2ofun]

The dcbel doesn't seem to play well with others from their FAQ:

I am thinking that one reason their charger is SO expensive, is it is also a solar inverter. If the case, I guess another reason I will not be able to make this work. Still waiting to see if they will call me so I can ask directly some questions.

 

[h2ofun]

Some people cannot get anything done themselves, this is a fact. My service experiences have been decent, and pretty infrequent. There were a couple times I had hard to fix issues, but in both cases another follow-up appointment solved it.

I have 110k miles on my model 3 performance and have driven it crazy places out of the way. 2 different times I had to get emergency tire service in a road trip and both times I was on the way same day. One time was in Arizona on Friday, the other was a Saturday in Oregon. Both times I was able to get a set of tires installed in less than 1 day.

In another case with just 1 bad tire, roadside service drove one loaner rim out to me so I could drive to the tire shop.

The best case scenario for V2G is for the charger to use the same inverter signal that other inverters use in a powerwall system - frequency shifting. I'll follow this with interest and see what you learn.

I want to have others learn, and tell me if it can be done, but so far seems no one has made this a priority

 

[SalisburySam]

That is just a crazy response and seems like something a lawyer might taken on as it might get turned into a class action.

It did. That’s how the 5-year capacity warranty came about. Was irrelevant to my case because of the requirement for > 4 bar capacity loss.

What happens with charging? Are you seeing the same amount of charge go in as you did originally (say at the 20% level to 100% it takes ~30kWH) or is half of that (~15kWh).

No idea, no easy way to tell other than looking at the electric bill against a time log of charging. Doesn’t really matter anyway. Car goes 30 miles on charge to 100% from Low Battery Warning (LBW). And Nissan says it’s fine.

I've never had any significant issues with my cars, but I've heard that escalating to corporate service when you aren't getting expected support from your local dealer can work. I think that it is a reasonable ask to have them explain why you are seeing the range decrease that you are seeing and that it should be something covered under warranty.

Yup, did that. “Car performing to normal specifications.” Confirmed by corporate. I asked for explanations from dealership to regional to corporate. “Car performing to normal specifications.”

Maybe it is the battery and it is still covered or maybe another component has failed (drive motor, HVAC, etc) is now drawing a lot more current than on day one and isn't covered.

Maybe, don’t know. Dealer/Region/Corporate: “Car is performing to specifications.”

Your experience is the primary reason why I waited until this year to get an EV and why I bought a Tesla. I was worried about long term degradation of the battery impacting the usability and resellability as I tend to keep my cars for 8-10 years and the reliability (fires, something just shorts/dies). Tesla customer support sucks and they don't have local dealerships that want to keep you happy so you buy another vehicle to make up for it, but they have produced far more "full size" EVs than anyone else and have accumulated a lot more real world data on battery performance, charging and construction that anyone else which gave me more confidence in the purchase.

Note: I did get the M3 RWD with a LFP battery which is new for Tesla, so I am crossing my fingers a bit on that aspect. It does have less components (battery cells, drive motors) which statistically should result in less failures.

The 2011/2012 LEAFs were Nissan’s EV market entries presumably to test the waters. Early adopters and even dealerships were enthusiastic about this popularly-priced car with nothing else out there like it. Tesla Roadsters and early Model S vehicles were tiny, tiny niche players the masses had no interest in or were even aware of. The LEAFs were and still are very nicely appointed, comfortable hatchbacks with many nice features especially at the SL trim level. Preheating/cooling from your smartphone app, heated steering wheel, J1772 and CHAdeMO inlets, very easy ingress/egress for driver and passenger, fabric-like seats recycled from plastics, all seats heated, USB-A port, smooth suspension, spare tire jack/lug nut wrench but no spare, decent Infinity audio system, pretty quiet interior compared to my Model 3. And no battery management system. That coupled with weak 24kWh battery chemistry and high rates of capacity degradation rendered the LEAF far less than it could have been. Sales were decent but subsequent models made only incremental improvements causing Nissan to completely lose their early-mover advantage. Sad really. Today with the LEAF and upcoming Ariya, Nissan is a “me too” player and still focused at price points below those of Tesla, Hyundai/Kia, others where they could get some traction. Dealerships seem to have lost enthusiasm for the product, much like a Chevy dealer’s interest in the Bolt…minimal to none. Can order if you really want one. Interesting to think what could have been.

 

[BGbreeder]

That is just a crazy response and seems like something a lawyer might taken on as it might get turned into a class action. What happens with charging? Are you seeing the same amount of charge go in as you did originally (say at the 20% level to 100% it takes ~30kWH) or is half of that (~15kWh).
...

Note: I did get the M3 RWD with a LFP battery which is new for Tesla, so I am crossing my fingers a bit on that aspect. It does have less components (battery cells, drive motors) which statistically should result in less failures.

I hope that your M3 lasts a long time. I would point out that having fewer components doesn't reduce the failure rate if their individual probabilities of failure are higher. With new technology or designs, the MTBF is a "who knows?", and I hope that your bet pans out.

All the best,

BG

 

[h2ofun]

Well, got my answer. Basically does not work with anything that is already installed.
Hi Dave,



Thank you for your response!



I will respond to each relevant question/comment you raised below.



Self Installation:



While dcbel is designed to be simple to operate, installing the unit requires a licensed electrician. That’s why we partner with Smart Home Integration Partners (SHIPs) who are local experts in smart home energy for the installation. You will, however, work closely with the SHIP and have full visibility over the installation.



Tesla Powerwall:



dcbel does not currently support integration with the Tesla Powerwall. dcbel performs the DC to AC conversion using our patented PUC5 multi-level converter technology and thus, requires a DC input.



Tesla Compatibility:



dcbel r16 can currently fast-charge and solar-charge a Tesla through the use of an adapter. However, Tesla vehicles are not compatible with two-way power flow. Employing bidirectional charging would void Tesla’s warranty and cause technical issues with the vehicle.



Nissan Leaf:



You can charge and solar charge Nissan Leaf with dcbel r16. In terms of blackout power, currently, only EVs built to the CHAdeMO standard are compatible and with the most popular model being the Nissan Leaf (2013 model or later). It is a perfect match!



Connector Combination:



You can outfit a dcbel r16 with one of two connector combinations: AC J1772 and CHAdeMO, or AC J1772 and CCS. In other words, one AC connector and one DC connector are required. Bear in mind, however, that CCS vehicles can still be charged via a Level 2 AC J1772 connector.



Breaker:



dcbel r16 should be connected to a 120-volt main breaker panel and a breaker panel with enough room for the required breakers (ideally 200A or more). For more technical details and wiring diagrams, we encourage you to read our spec sheet and a more detailed user manual will be published soon. Stay tuned!







Wiring Diagram:

Availability:



We are currently taking reservations for installations for Q2-2023. We encourage you to reserve your unit here.



Finally, I do see you have requested a callback. Please select an appointment here.



Best regards,



The dcbel Team

 

[Vines]

Well, got my answer. Basically does not work with anything that is already installed.
Hi Dave,



Thank you for your response!



I will respond to each relevant question/comment you raised below.



Self Installation:



While dcbel is designed to be simple to operate, installing the unit requires a licensed electrician. That’s why we partner with Smart Home Integration Partners (SHIPs) who are local experts in smart home energy for the installation. You will, however, work closely with the SHIP and have full visibility over the installation.



Tesla Powerwall:



dcbel does not currently support integration with the Tesla Powerwall. dcbel performs the DC to AC conversion using our patented PUC5 multi-level converter technology and thus, requires a DC input.



Tesla Compatibility:



dcbel r16 can currently fast-charge and solar-charge a Tesla through the use of an adapter. However, Tesla vehicles are not compatible with two-way power flow. Employing bidirectional charging would void Tesla’s warranty and cause technical issues with the vehicle.



Nissan Leaf:



You can charge and solar charge Nissan Leaf with dcbel r16. In terms of blackout power, currently, only EVs built to the CHAdeMO standard are compatible and with the most popular model being the Nissan Leaf (2013 model or later). It is a perfect match!



Connector Combination:



You can outfit a dcbel r16 with one of two connector combinations: AC J1772 and CHAdeMO, or AC J1772 and CCS. In other words, one AC connector and one DC connector are required. Bear in mind, however, that CCS vehicles can still be charged via a Level 2 AC J1772 connector.



Breaker:



dcbel r16 should be connected to a 120-volt main breaker panel and a breaker panel with enough room for the required breakers (ideally 200A or more). For more technical details and wiring diagrams, we encourage you to read our spec sheet and a more detailed user manual will be published soon. Stay tuned!







Wiring Diagram:

Availability:



We are currently taking reservations for installations for Q2-2023. We encourage you to reserve your unit here.



Finally, I do see you have requested a callback. Please select an appointment here.



Best regards,



The dcbel Team

I just talked to them and am asking for more information. It does work with existing PV and it does work in parallel with existing AC inverters. The devil is in the details though.

Questions about integrating Tesla Powerwalls were met with stock answers. They are answering questions about integrating with DC interconnection of other sources, but I want to know about AC interconnection with other AC sources.

In Blackout power mode, what happens to other PV which is AC interconnected in parallel with dcbel?

 

[cali8484]

In Blackout power mode, what happens to other PV which is AC interconnected in parallel with dcbel?

dcbel (and Fermata) don't appear to support AC coupling with GTI by themselves as they have no built-in capability to detect excess GTI power and curtail it.

 

[Vines]

Here is a guide about using solar with dcbel.

https://www.dcbel.energy/wp-content/uploads/dcbel-Solar-Guide-2021.pdf

dcbel (and Fermata) don't appear to support AC coupling with GTI by themselves as they have no built-in capability to detect excess GTI power and curtail it.

I agree, it seems that dcbel lacks that capability to send the signal, but it can respond to the signal in grid following mode. Likely it must curtail PV output in response to a frequency shift signal from the Tesla Powerwall system. If it is listed to UL 1741 SA then it likely must respond to these signals.

What if this device was inserted into a Tesla Powerwall system behind the Tesla Gateway but without the dcbel blackout power hardware?

The GTI inside the dcbel would be grid following and would treat the Tesla microgrid just as a regular utility grid. Then the trick would be to send good signals to the Tesla Powerwall system.

Those signals would be different if you have Powerwall+, or if you have Powerwall 2 AC with discrete PV. If you have a discrete PV inverter then you have to decide either to try and replace it with dcbel. If the PV is inverted through dcbel then dcbel has native control over it. so maybe an easier path.

 

[BGbreeder]

Note the required use of multiple autotransformers to load balance the phases….

 

[Vines]

Note the required use of multiple autotransformers to load balance the phases….

Agreed, as long as the car charger is used as a grid-forming device.

In grid following mode, I suspect it only outputs pure 240 vac, similar to other inverters. Then the phase balancing would be handled by the Powerwalls. I am still getting more information from them.

 

[cali8484]

Here is a guide about using solar with dcbel.

https://www.dcbel.energy/wp-content/uploads/dcbel-Solar-Guide-2021.pdf



I agree, it seems that dcbel lacks that capability to send the signal, but it can respond to the signal in grid following mode. Likely it must curtail PV output in response to a frequency shift signal from the Tesla Powerwall system. If it is listed to UL 1741 SA then it likely must respond to these signals.

What if this device was inserted into a Tesla Powerwall system behind the Tesla Gateway but without the dcbel blackout power hardware?

The GTI inside the dcbel would be grid following and would treat the Tesla microgrid just as a regular utility grid. Then the trick would be to send good signals to the Tesla Powerwall system.

Those signals would be different if you have Powerwall+, or if you have Powerwall 2 AC with discrete PV. If you have a discrete PV inverter then you have to decide either to try and replace it with dcbel. If the PV is inverted through dcbel then dcbel has native control over it. so maybe an easier path.

That's like what I suggested (Nissan Leaf as a battery) to h2ofun.

 

[holeydonut]

Awwww danggggg it's time for @h2ofun n to get a Silverado EV.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2022/10/chevy-silverado-ev-to-offer-bidirectional-charging-capability/

'Properly equipped, customers will be able to charge their Chevy Silverado EV using energy generated by rooftop solar panels, offsetting the cost of electricity from the grid. Customers will also be able to export energy from their vehicle to their home during peak hours, further offsetting electricity costs, will also relying on the system to provide energy in the event that the broader electricity grid undergoes an outage.'

I really wish one day I could just tell an EV to export energy onto the generation panel of the Tesla Gateway and have the system operate as if it were just solar energy showing up at 7pm. Moooooooon Power!