Not getting enough miles

[Need]

Which is the highest number so everyone uses in their advertising and on their web sites. Also having the same test is the only way to objectively compare mileage.

I think he was asking how does the number affect the design/operation of the car. I think car manufacturers probably would design their cars to maximize performance under test criteria instead of real-world driving conditions. A rogue Tesla software programmer could actually program in something like "If the car's GPS location is in an known EPA test facility, divert life support to maximize shield..I mean driving range!"

 

[strider]

How does the EPA factor into the design and operation of Tesla cars? The only thing they dictate is how Tesla arrives at the number on the sticker in the window!

Because if the range number on the dash was lower than what the EPA sticker said then people would think that Tesla lied or they have a bad battery and complain.

This is NO different than the EPA mpg values and fuel gauge in an ICE. The standard ICE fuel gauge is equivalent to viewing your battery in percentage terms. You have likely been doing this for years and it's been fine. The "miles remaining" in most ICE trip computers is equivalent to viewing your battery in miles. I have NEVER seen an ICE "miles remaining" calculator that is worth a darn. It's no different in a Tesla. Further, most people do not get the advertised mpg. Most people get less mpg than the EPA. It's no different in a Tesla.

Learn your car. Use the energy screen and understand how it works. The nav system is conservative (when it tells you to slow down to X to make your destination). I believe it is programmed to give you a 10% buffer or something. If the terrain is fairly constant then set the energy app to the longest history and adjust your speed from there. Cruise control helps a lot for maximizing range. I like to use the "energy at destination" value in the nav. If that number is dropping I slow down a few mph. If it's creeping up I may speed up a few mph. That being said I live on the plains so terrain is not much of an issue. Those occasional 45mph headwinds though...

 

[gnuarm]

Which is the highest number so everyone uses in their advertising and on their web sites. Also having the same test is the only way to objectively compare mileage.

At no time have I been referring to advertised or web site ratings. My issues are what I see on the dashboard vs. what I actually get.

I don't know how much it matters that the battery is "preconditioned", i.e. warmed up. I suspect it is virtually 100% of what is lost in range due to the cold. Since the cold weather reduction in range is larger than the differences I've seen in driving to date, my real issue is with the lack of preconditioning while connected to 120 VAC. I would like to have a 240 V 50 amp outlet available, but the garage has a boat in it and I can't do anything about that just yet. So at this location I'm stuck with 120 V, 15 A charging for now.

 

[gnuarm]

Because if the range number on the dash was lower than what the EPA sticker said then people would think that Tesla lied or they have a bad battery and complain.

Uh, the number on the dash is not the same as the quoted number given out by Tesla. I've never seen the range in the car the same as the quoted range.

This is NO different than the EPA mpg values and fuel gauge in an ICE. The standard ICE fuel gauge is equivalent to viewing your battery in percentage terms. You have likely been doing this for years and it's been fine. The "miles remaining" in most ICE trip computers is equivalent to viewing your battery in miles. I have NEVER seen an ICE "miles remaining" calculator that is worth a darn. It's no different in a Tesla. Further, most people do not get the advertised mpg. Most people get less mpg than the EPA. It's no different in a Tesla.

It is very different in one regard. In an ICE auto, I can pull into a service station at nearly any exit on the highway. So if I have 10 miles left in the tank or I have 100 miles left in the tank doesn't matter so much. With the Tesla it makes a huge difference because if I run out I am waiting hours for a flatbed truck to haul my car to a Supercharger.

So in a Tesla it is all about knowing your range accurately before you start the trip or making sure you will pass by closely spaced Superchargers.

In my previous truck I had enough experience that I could literally pull into a gas station and know how much fuel was in the tank within a half gallon from monitoring the low fuel warning light. Most people panic at that point, but I would still shop for gas prices. lol With the Tesla I can't do this because the chargers are so few and far between.

Learn your car. Use the energy screen and understand how it works. The nav system is conservative (when it tells you to slow down to X to make your destination). I believe it is programmed to give you a 10% buffer or something. If the terrain is fairly constant then set the energy app to the longest history and adjust your speed from there. Cruise control helps a lot for maximizing range. I like to use the "energy at destination" value in the nav. If that number is dropping I slow down a few mph. If it's creeping up I may speed up a few mph. That being said I live on the plains so terrain is not much of an issue. Those occasional 45mph headwinds though...

All of the above is great advice. But it doesn't address the shortcomings of the car's range estimations.

 

[Big Earl]

The number on the instrument cluster is the advertised EPA rating of the car. If yours is a few miles short on a full charge, it's due to either a small amount of battery degradation or a slight error in the car's calculation of state of charge.

 

[strider]

All of the above is great advice. But it doesn't address the shortcomings of the car's range estimations.

Your statement about your truck proves my point. You are new to the car. It will take you some time to get a feel for it but you will, just like you did with your ICE truck. Yes, SCs are farther apart than gas stations but there are plenty of those "last gas for 75 miles" stretches out West.

Tesla is already doing the best job with range estimation if you use the nav system. The % remaining at destination is taking into account your current energy usage (ie speed) and elevation. It does not (yet) take weather into account. I do not know of anyone in the ICE world that is taking elevation into account to calculate "miles remaining" in the trip computer. With an internet connection they could at some point factor in whether you have a headwind or tailwind along your route and give even better estimations.

Do not use the miles remaining on the battery meter as your range estimator. That is why some people say to change it to %. That way it's just like your ICE fuel gauge. You need to only use the nav/energy screen for range estimations.

What you are feeing is called range anxiety. EVERYONE gets it and it goes away over time.

 

[gnuarm]

The number on the instrument cluster is the advertised EPA rating of the car. If yours is a few miles short on a full charge, it's due to either a small amount of battery degradation or a slight error in the car's calculation of state of charge.

What sort of calculation error can the car make??? How much degradation would the battery have after just 5,000 miles? Why would the service center tech tell me the car would adjust the mileage calculation as the weather changes (although a bit slowly) to read a more accurate estimate if it is fixed to some setting from the EPA mandated measurement? Did the tech lie to me?

 

[gnuarm]

Your statement about your truck proves my point. You are new to the car. It will take you some time to get a feel for it but you will, just like you did with your ICE truck. Yes, SCs are farther apart than gas stations but there are plenty of those "last gas for 75 miles" stretches out West.

I don't agree. The difference with my old truck is the truck was pathologically consistent. The mileage never varied more than ±1 mpg. The range on the Tesla seems to fluctuate wildly. The winter range seems to be on the order of 30% low.

Tesla is already doing the best job with range estimation if you use the nav system. The % remaining at destination is taking into account your current energy usage (ie speed) and elevation. It does not (yet) take weather into account. I do not know of anyone in the ICE world that is taking elevation into account to calculate "miles remaining" in the trip computer. With an internet connection they could at some point factor in whether you have a headwind or tailwind along your route and give even better estimations.

With an ICE vehicle the range is not calculated and the tanks are typically large enough and the gas stations close enough that it doesn't matter much what the exact range is. When the gauge gets low you stop for gas.

Do not use the miles remaining on the battery meter as your range estimator. That is why some people say to change it to %. That way it's just like your ICE fuel gauge. You need to only use the nav/energy screen for range estimations.

I understand what you are saying. The problem is there is *no* good estimate of remaining range on a BEV. There is too much dependency on weather and roads. Heck, I've seen my mileage measurement go well over 500 WH/m for no apparent reason for several miles.

What you are feeing is called range anxiety. EVERYONE gets it and it goes away over time.

Not really. I've gone through the process of being anxious because I'm not familiar with the car. The problem now is I am familiar with the car and it still is not a good feeling. I'm planning another trip over roads I've been on a couple of times already. I know where the chargers are all along the route. The problem is this will all be new to me with the cold weather range. So I guess I'm not familiar with the car in cold weather. With the 100 kWHr battery I thought trips would be no problem. Turns out I only get to use about half that much energy and can expect to stop at nearly every charger along the way.

I'll feel better about this when they get more charging stations along routes so I can actually use the range available that I paid for rather than having to stop every 100 miles because that's where the chargers are.

 

[Yinn]

I don't agree. The difference with my old truck is the truck was pathologically consistent. The mileage never varied more than ±1 mpg. The range on the Tesla seems to fluctuate wildly. The winter range seems to be on the order of 30% low.

With an ICE vehicle the range is not calculated and the tanks are typically large enough and the gas stations close enough that it doesn't matter much what the exact range is. When the gauge gets low you stop for gas.

That might be because of your area and that the truck got lower mpg overall as well. I've owned a number of Subaru's that would get 5 mpg less in the winter than in the summer. Some of that was due to the extra ethanol used in my area in the winter mix, some of it is due to the weather itself. Also, now we're comparing two different things. MPG vs Total Range. The Total Range should be seen as a gas gauge equivalent when used in the % mode. When used in the miles mode, it should not be used as a gas gauge and a common new mistake. In miles mode, this is no different than the "Distance to empty" found on many ICE cars.

That calculation is highly inaccurate as well based upon initial EPA figures (just like Tesla) followed by the average MPG calculation as you drive. Which...typically would go to 99.9 when you ease off the accelerator and bring your mpg reading up compared to your actual. I logged my miles in my ICE cars, they NEVER got the indicated "avg mpg" and never got the actual "distance to empty" In fact, most manufacturers acknowledge it's inaccurate and either display --- under a certain mileage remaining (typically 10-25 miles) and those that display down to 0 Miles remaining will run another 20 miles or so before actually going empty.

The problem is there is *no* good estimate of remaining range on a BEV. There is too much dependency on weather and roads. Heck, I've seen my mileage measurement go well over 500 WH/m for no apparent reason for several miles.

Do you mean while driving or in terms of rating? EV's definitely have a lot more variability in range due; so a universal rating is VERY difficult. If you mean while you're in the car; then use the energy graph instead. Anyone who tows on this site will tell you that is a key screen for them. The ability to do an instant remaining range (or avg it out) is tremendously more useful than the number on the dash.

If you're trip planning, give evtripplanner a try. Over time you'll know your own usage as well. Mine as an example; I know I use 25% more than rated on average. Mostly due to highway driving. I get 25% better range than rated when driving locally. And my range in the winter is about 10% worse than it is in summer.

 

[juliusa]

we have been on the following trips so far and here are the numbers

1) destination 80 miles but car consumed 150 miles
2) destination 98 miles but car consumed 130 miles

Just keep increasing the distance of your drives

3) destination 116 miles out but car consumed 110 miles
4) destination 134 miles out but car consumed 90 miles
5) ...

 

[mxnym]

Which is the highest number so everyone uses in their advertising and on their web sites. Also having the same test is the only way to objectively compare mileage.

Two problems with this statement:

1. EPA rating isn't "the highest number" as Tesla's "Ideal" range is a much higher number
2. OP is talking about the number being displayed in the IC, which has nothing to do with objectively comparing ratings prior to a purchase. I don't know if/what other EVs show in the IC, but I think it would be more reasonable to show % by default or show some sort of estimate.

Uh, the number on the dash is not the same as the quoted number given out by Tesla. I've never seen the range in the car the same as the quoted range.

The number in the dash is based on the EPA rated mileage compared against the estimated capacity (unless it will show the "Ideal" number when you choose that option for the line in the energy chart, and I don't know because I switched it to % on day one). It may not show the EPA rated (/Ideal) range at 100% charge, but it will be close to it, and the difference will be explainable by battery degredation and/or battery capacity estimation error.

All of the above is great advice. But it doesn't address the shortcomings of the car's range estimations.

In case it still isn't clear, the car is not estimating range in the dash. I personally find the energy chart useful with the 30 mile average, but I understand your concerns. It has already been mentioned by others that Teslas do create a potentially useful estimation of some sort in the trip section of the energy chart when you have navigation running. This may not be a range estimation, but it will tell you what the vehicle expects based on external factors (instead of just using EPA range) and show you how your trip is comparing to that.

What sort of calculation error can the car make???

Battery capacity can only be estimated, not calculated. Partial cycles can throw this estimation off until the cells are rebalanced. The discrepancies shouldn't be significant enough to cause regular stress.

How much degradation would the battery have after just 5,000 miles?

It varies, but if you actually A/C charge to 100% regularly (you never said you did, but you did say the IC range doesn't match the advertised range, which you could only tell at 100% charge), that seems to provide for the worst case scenario based on published real life battery degradation experiences.

Why would the service center tech tell me the car would adjust the mileage calculation as the weather changes (although a bit slowly) to read a more accurate estimate if it is fixed to some setting from the EPA mandated measurement?

Because the person you spoke to at the service center didn't know what they were talking about and may have even just transferred to the "tech" position (a Service Advisor is NOT a "tech" at any brand's dealer service center, Tesla is no exception) from a showroom position.

Did the tech lie to me?

No, if the person even held an actual "tech" positon, it may have been a position that only changes things like tires and wipers. The person was either misinformed or clueless, but not willing to admit it.

 

[gnuarm]

I'm pretty tired of the back and forth. A lot of people have expressed their opinions without any supporting info. If nothing else, it is sad that Tesla hasn't provided answers to these questions.

I will be driving north again this weekend and then back to Tennessee the middle of the week. It is a bit of a PITA to have to write down my numbers as I drive, but I will try that so I can have real data to work with.

The bottom line is that it's a travesty that this is what I will have to do to get accurate data. If the service person told me wrong about the mileage indicator self adjusting as the winter comes in force, that is a travesty. If the service person has told me right and the indicator does adjust then that will go a long way to making me happier about things. But it's been cold here for about a month and I've yet to see any indication he is right.

For a car that has a major limitation as BEVs do to not do everything possible to facilitate accurate forecasting of battery range, that is also a travesty, not to mention a very poor marketing approach. I guess maybe the figure most people will just believe the range number and never realize if it is always inaccurate.

 

[Yinn]

The bottom line is that it's a travesty that this is what I will have to do to get accurate data. If the service person told me wrong about the mileage indicator self adjusting as the winter comes in force, that is a travesty. If the service person has told me right and the indicator does adjust then that will go a long way to making me happier about things. But it's been cold here for about a month and I've yet to see any indication he is right. .

Im really trying to help you here. The SC is right, the indicator takes into account weather. BUT, it’s still not accurate.

As someone who has over 100,000 miles across multiple Tesla’s, with 1/4 of it towing a trailer several on 10+ hour trips. I’m telling you to please stop relying on the indicator on your dash if you’re looking for reliable range data.

If you want reliable range data, talk to those who tow with their EV. We have much smaller windows, and a lot of us track everything. Range and wh/mi across different terrain. In different weather. Different elevation. These folks live and die by the next supercharger and a next supercharger 50 miles away may not be enough (especially in a 75D)

That said, when I set off and I try to figure out if I can skip a supercharger or not, I pull up my energy graph. I keep it on instant calculation if I want to see how my driving ultimately affects my range. This overlays with my trip and nav.

Once I get going, I average it over the last 5 or 15miles depending on terrain. Give it a try on your TN trip. Hope it helps

 

[HugoBoss]

There are a lot of factors that affect the ratings more so on an electric vehicle than Ice.
One factor that affects both is the rim weight.
It's a well know fact that one of the first and best improvements you can do to a car is lighter rims, that's why lightweight forged rims are so much more expensive. Ask anyone who races. I think it's referred to unsprung wheel weight.

I just put in the destination and go from there. I've learned not to worry about how much energy is consumed unless I'm doing a long return trip and don't plan on supercharging.
I've learned to trust Tesla navigation and trip estimates, don't even notice how much Batterr is left cause it's not that accurate. In my head I take into consideration the weather. Colder wastes more than warmer weather.

 

[DCGOO]

The bottom line is that it's a travesty that this is what I will have to do to get accurate data. If the service person told me wrong about the mileage indicator self adjusting as the winter comes in force, that is a travesty. If the service person has told me right and the indicator does adjust then that will go a long way to making me happier about things. But it's been cold here for about a month and I've yet to see any indication he is right.

The mileage indicated on the tank gauge has no relationship to reality. It has no idea where you are going, how you are going to drive and what the environment is like on the day you are driving. Basically the number displayed is useless, at best it is a WAG.

Change the tank over to indicate %. If you are concerned about making the trip, bring up the energy graph and use the estimated mileage shown there. It at least takes into account your current trip for the last 5, 15 or 30 miles (you pick). You have to factor in expected elevation changes yourself. If you are navigating somewhere, you just have to make sure the estimated range on the energy graph exceeds the distance to your destination. That is NOT what the fuel gauge displays. It was never intended to do that.

The car really bends over backwards to provide data to you in various forms to make sure you can get to where you are going.

 

[gangzoom]

Why do so many people here seem to obesse about what the rated range shows at 100%.

We all know calculating exact usable kWh is a guesstimate at the best of times. We also know on the whole these battery packs last and have a 8 year warranty behind them.

Even though I the least efficent and smallest range car Tesla currently sell, 75D X, daily I don't charge above 75% even now in the British winter. I can count on one hand the number of times I've charged to 100% for road trips in the last 18 months and 28K miles since getting the car.

Stop obsessing over pointless numbers and just enjoy owning/driving one of the best cars on the planet right now .

 

[TexasEV]

Why do so many people here seem to obesse about what the rated range shows at 100%.

We all know calculating exact usable kWh is a guesstimate at the best of times. We also know on the whole these battery packs last and have a 8 year warranty behind them.

Even though I the least efficent and smallest range car Tesla currently sell, 75D X, daily I don't charge above 75% even now in the British winter. I can count on one hand the number of times I've charged to 100% for road trips in the last 18 months and 28K miles since getting the car.

Stop obsessing over pointless numbers and just enjoy owning/driving one of the best cars on the planet right now .

We as Model S owners and former Model S owners get it. Why do Model 3 owners who are new to Tesls obsess over the battery so much? A few miles one way or the other is not going to affect how you use the car at all.

 

[Cycle11111]

Use the energy consumption graph under apps section. It is very instructive and helps you manage energy usage and tells you how you are tracking. The car will start yelling at you if you need to stop to charge. I have an MX (100D) and an M3 and using that graph works for both. I drive to Truckee CA from the Bay Area almost every week in many conditions- it is always one stop charging at Rocklin when heading up and no charge stops heading down with 15-25% left at the end.

 

[gnuarm]

Im really trying to help you here. The SC is right, the indicator takes into account weather. BUT, it’s still not accurate.

The concern is not if it is totally accurate, but others are saying it is simply a multiplier for the batter charge to produce the EPA rating miles. That would not adjust for season, so one is right and the other is wrong.

As someone who has over 100,000 miles across multiple Tesla’s, with 1/4 of it towing a trailer several on 10+ hour trips. I’m telling you to please stop relying on the indicator on your dash if you’re looking for reliable range data.

If you want reliable range data, talk to those who tow with their EV. We have much smaller windows, and a lot of us track everything. Range and wh/mi across different terrain. In different weather. Different elevation. These folks live and die by the next supercharger and a next supercharger 50 miles away may not be enough (especially in a 75D)

That said, when I set off and I try to figure out if I can skip a supercharger or not, I pull up my energy graph. I keep it on instant calculation if I want to see how my driving ultimately affects my range. This overlays with my trip and nav.

So you are agreeing that none of the mileage data Tesla provides is accurate. That's my point. It is absurd that I have to keep manual track of charge and miles when the car is full of computers. In fact, I can't do my own calculations because I have no info on the terrain and how that impacts the consumption.

Once I get going, I average it over the last 5 or 15miles depending on terrain. Give it a try on your TN trip. Hope it helps

I have done the same trip a couple of times and a total of 5000 miles mostly trips. I've seen the 5, 15 and 30 mile averages range all over the place. With the cold weather the heater is another wild card which I haven't been able to calibrate.

I'm not used to doing this sort of computations without tools like spreadsheets and calculator programs. None of that is viable in the car.

 

[gnuarm]

The car really bends over backwards to provide data to you in various forms to make sure you can get to where you are going.

I didn't want to respond to every post here, but I need to respond to that last line. The complaint is that the car does the opposite of bending over backwards to provide range info. They simply don't bother to provide good and accurate info on how far you can go. Rather than try to minimize the number of stops (which is my preference) they try to minimize the charging time which is not the same as the total trip time. The time taken to pull off the road and start/stop the charging is not really factored.

The alternate web site abetterrouteplanner.com is a good start, but that capability should be in the car, at least as an option. There should also be a way to pull trip info out of the car so I can use real data from previous trips without a pen and pad.