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Now that 100kwh is around the corner

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by blackscraper, Aug 16, 2016.

  1. blackscraper

    blackscraper Member

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    There is little room you can improve on efficiency nor is there much room for lowering the aero. A bigger pack seems to be the only way to get more range from my point of view. I don't think a 250 mile is a sweet point for such an expensive car. It might be the sweet point of triggering sales of a certain EV. Model S is far from a perfect car, lacking some range being the most important one as I can see. I'd agree 650 miles is too long for most people, however due to the slow "refill speed" of EV, longer range is still desirable.
     
  2. blackscraper

    blackscraper Member

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    Just to add, I was talking to a Model X owner the other day at a destination charger. One of his concern is this $200K model X (I am in Canada) does not have enough range. Their trip to Montreal reveals that they can barely make 300KM with this P90D X going at 120KM/H with AC on during a hot day. They were not towing though. This thing is actually a pig.
     
  3. Garlan Garner

    Garlan Garner Banned

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    You are making the assumption that everything is remaining the same.

    For example:
    I don't believe battery weight will remain the same per kwh.
    I do believe battery density will jump by leaps and bounds over the next 18 months without increasing weight at all.
    I do believe that advancements in technology keep batteries significantly cooler over the next 18 months.

    Most importantly I believe the electric motors that propel Teslas will significantly increase in efficiency over the next 18 months.

    I don't believe Tesla vehicles will need to increase in volume or battery space at all. History proves this to be true.
     
  4. GlmnAlyAirCar

    GlmnAlyAirCar Active Member

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    Yes, I fully agree. The biggest problem I find is that I am always forced to use amentities at a limited number of superchargers along my route. More super chargers = more choices.

    When I set out in my 70D with 100% it's easily 3.5 hours before I need to charge. That's about as much as I can take in one shot.
     
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  5. blackscraper

    blackscraper Member

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    I think the efficiency of Tesla electric motors are at 90-ish% efficiency. There is little or no room for further improvement. Nothing can go beyond 100%. Further, the induction motor tesla uses is not that efficient compared to other DC motors, but they are far simpler.
     
  6. Electroman

    Electroman Well-Known Member

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    Lot of exaggerations going on in that comment:

    Not sure how it is $200K Canadian, when the most optioned X is around $140K US, but even then what does the price of those expensive options one might have chosen anything to do with the range?. A base model 90DX is $100k. Obviously a P version would cost more and has an impact on range.

    Second, even on a hot day in Canada - not like a hot day in AZ - a P90DX would easily go more than 220 miles, and not 186 miles - another exaggeration. On a Canadian winter cold days, yes 180 is a fair estimate, but not in summer
     
  7. jaguar36

    jaguar36 Active Member

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    Fully loaded P90DX in CAD$ 200,900.
     
  8. deonb

    deonb Supporting Member

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    It would require a battery capacity that's 16 times larger than now, with the same weight and size as now, to be able to achieve 400mph.

    So no, I don't believe it will jump by THAT many leaps and bounds over the next 18 months. Hence the Jet Engine.
     
  9. blackscraper

    blackscraper Member

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    You don't even have to go to a fully loaded one to top CAD 200K mark (Ontario has 13% sales tax). He was talking about some unusually hot day in Southern Ontario. The daily high reached 99 or 100 F, with humidity factored in, you were probably looking at more than 110F. That day when I was talking to the couple, my dash board showed outside temperature was 38C, and it was 5:30PM. I believe it can not be compared to the heat in AZ, however, still quite hot. He turned on both front and back AC and probably had been driving at 120KM/H with some headwind from west.
     
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  10. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

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    At some point you start paying more for something you rarely use... IMO that point is ~200 miles of real world range. I'll take more abundant superchargers over more range... Superchargers don't cost me any extra $$$ and everyone can use them.
     
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  11. Topher

    Topher Energy Curmudgeon

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    After about 180 miles (real) range (others may need slightly different range), I would prefer the batteries be put in someone else's car. Once everyone has an electric car, we can think about making huge battery packs. We are battery limited at the moment, I would hate to be the one causing climate chaos when I could be enabling another electric car.

    Thank you kindly.
     
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  12. Dynastar

    Dynastar Member

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    On the other hand the margins on big pack cars are helping fund the development of that next car.
     
  13. Topher

    Topher Energy Curmudgeon

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    I am not saying Tesla shouldn't offer them for sale, I am saying people shouldn't buy them (without legitimate need). The externalities for fossil fuel burning are huge; I (and everyone else) are far better off if two gas guzzlers are removed from circulation by two 60kWh Model S, than for only one to be removed by one 100kWh Model S. Far more than the $1k or so difference in Tesla working capital. If you want to fund the development of the Model ≡, feel free to buy the top-end wheels, and all the other gee-gaws.

    Thank you kindly.
     
  14. Garlan Garner

    Garlan Garner Banned

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    No way. 16 times? What?

    I just said that capacity would be much greater in the same amount of space with the same weight. Elon has already stated that the current "new" battery has a 6% greater density of power than the current one and the 18 months hasn't really started yet.
     
  15. Mike K

    Mike K Member

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    I would be perfectly content with 85kwh if supercharging was faster. In real life I've found it to be much slower than advertised. I vaguely remember something along the lines of 10 - 80% charge in 30 minutes and I've never experienced anything even remotely close to that. That's about 170 miles added in 30 minutes. It's never happened for me. Maybe it's the routes I take that cause the superchargers to be throttled (hot California/ Arizona desert).

    From a business, cost of ownership and convenience perspective I see concentration on improvements in charge time to be much more important than battery capacity.

    This would result in cheaper to produce cars, cheaper to warranty cars, cheaper to fix cars (when they're out of warranty) and less overall resources used.
     
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Member

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    On my 85D, I routinely go from 15% to 80% in about 35 minutes. Of course, I would love it to be faster, but I feel like I'm getting what has been advertised.
     
  17. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

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    Do you have an older 'S'? The A packs are limited to 90kW. I've never measured it but my supercharging is pretty close to 80% in 30 minutes. I have seen current limiting... sometimes this is just a problem with that particular SC and I can get higher charge rates by moving to a different bay. If you're sharing a SC with another car the 135kW output gets split between the two cars.

    Which brings up a good habit... always check your charge rate before heading off for lunch or the restroom. I was talking to a couple about their new 'X' in Nevada and happened to notice that they were at ~40% SOC and pulling <100A. My car was happily gulping >200A (yes, they were on their own SC so power wasn't being split) If I hadn't said anything they might have sat there for an extra hour wondering what was taking so long.
     
  18. deonb

    deonb Supporting Member

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    Keep in mind that the aerodynamic drag function is quadratic.

    I don't think you realize how difficult 400mph is. There has only been a dozen or so ICE vehicles that have EVER achieved that, and those were one of prototypes. No production vehicle of any kind has ever gotten anywhere close.

    But a Tesla with a 16x (1440kWh) battery should in theory be able to make that. In theory.
     
  19. Garlan Garner

    Garlan Garner Banned

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    400mph? Its 400 mpc. 400 miles per charge.
     
  20. deonb

    deonb Supporting Member

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    It's been 400mph since post #7
     
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