Ohlins R&T landing in the USA as soon as May

[tm1v2]

@P3D-R @Motion122 @MasterC17 Following up on the pillowball top hats NVH topic, I got my front Redwood Öhlins on yesterday, Performance Sport with Redwood's optional pillowball top hats. Also installed MPP FLCA bearings and compression rod inserts at the same time. (Started late, will get to the rear suspension another day.)

No NVH issues at all so far. No clunks or squeaks or pops or anything like that in normal local + highway driving, including over potholes, old railroad crossing, and other forms of messed up pavement. Of course how long the Redwood and MPP bearings last remains to be seen, but initially they are effectively silent. Note I haven't done any hard driving yet, that will wait until I get the rear suspension on (and dial in the height better + get it aligned). So far so good though!

As I mentioned, if any of these aftermarket spherical bearings wear out quick, e.g. within a year, I'll just swap to factory rubber and that'll be that. No big deal to me. If they last a long time, say 5+ years of my driving, I'll be very happy with that and will rebuild (top hats) / replace (FLCA) when needed. If they wear out sometime in-between, like after 2-3 years...well I'll see how I feel about them then.

 

[P3D-R]

@P3D-R @Motion122 @MasterC17 Following up on the pillowball top hats NVH topic, I got my front Redwood Öhlins on yesterday, Performance Sport with Redwood's optional pillowball top hats. Also installed MPP FLCA bearings and compression rod inserts at the same time. (Started late, will get to the rear suspension another day.)

No NVH issues at all so far. No clunks or squeaks or pops or anything like that in normal local + highway driving, including over potholes, old railroad crossing, and other forms of messed up pavement. Of course how long the Redwood and MPP bearings last remains to be seen, but initially they are effectively silent. Note I haven't done any hard driving yet, that will wait until I get the rear suspension on (and dial in the height better + get it aligned). So far so good though!

As I mentioned, if any of these aftermarket spherical bearings wear out quick, e.g. within a year, I'll just swap to factory rubber and that'll be that. No big deal to me. If they last a long time, say 5+ years of my driving, I'll be very happy with that and will rebuild (top hats) / replace (FLCA) when needed. If they wear out sometime in-between, like after 2-3 years...well I'll see how I feel about them then.

The MPP stuff we've put through several cycles of hard testing on and off the track so I'm not worried about the front lower control arm one. The uppers however did remain silent for some time. Hopefully they remain that way for you. I know they made some updates to them but at least you're aware of what to expect should they not remain silent. Knowledge is power!!!!!

 

[Motion122]

@P3D-R @Motion122 @MasterC17 Following up on the pillowball top hats NVH topic, I got my front Redwood Öhlins on yesterday, Performance Sport with Redwood's optional pillowball top hats. Also installed MPP FLCA bearings and compression rod inserts at the same time. (Started late, will get to the rear suspension another day.)

No NVH issues at all so far. No clunks or squeaks or pops or anything like that in normal local + highway driving, including over potholes, old railroad crossing, and other forms of messed up pavement. Of course how long the Redwood and MPP bearings last remains to be seen, but initially they are effectively silent. Note I haven't done any hard driving yet, that will wait until I get the rear suspension on (and dial in the height better + get it aligned). So far so good though!

As I mentioned, if any of these aftermarket spherical bearings wear out quick, e.g. within a year, I'll just swap to factory rubber and that'll be that. No big deal to me. If they last a long time, say 5+ years of my driving, I'll be very happy with that and will rebuild (top hats) / replace (FLCA) when needed. If they wear out sometime in-between, like after 2-3 years...well I'll see how I feel about them then.

Keep us posted!

 

[Dangerous Fish]

The issue with spherical bearings becoming noisy isn't necessarily because they wear, but often because they become too tight due to being the wrong spec. in the first place or by dirt getting in them. Even the PTFE lined ones can have too much stiction which can cause squeaking and/or a sudden 'pop' when they partially sieze and then suddenly release under load.
I've had experience of this with aftermarket Model 3 drop links, FUCAs and control arms. It's often difficult to track these noises down because any suspension noise on these cars seems to be transmitted all over the place! I also think the different resonant frequency of aluminium doesn't help.

 

[gearchruncher]

I also think the different resonant frequency of aluminium doesn't help.

FYI, there isn't much Aluminum in the Model 3 structure. Only the rear subframe:

https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2017/08/5dyii0y.png

 

[Motion122]

The issue with spherical bearings becoming noisy isn't necessarily because they wear, but often because they become too tight due to being the wrong spec. in the first place or by dirt getting in them. Even the PTFE lined ones can have too much stiction which can cause squeaking and/or a sudden 'pop' when they partially sieze and then suddenly release under load.
I've had experience of this with aftermarket Model 3 drop links, FUCAs and control arms. It's often difficult to track these noises down because any suspension noise on these cars seems to be transmitted all over the place! I also think the different resonant frequency of aluminium doesn't help.

It also has to do with the damper as well. A google search might get a few hits. Koni based double adjustable front struts for some BMW applications are naturally noisy. They click/clunk with camber plates but are usually quiet with factory upper mounts. KW struts had the same issues for a while as well. I believe it had to do with the compression/rebound shim stacks being noisy or one or more of the wave washers used flatten out/looses tension over time.

 

[Dangerous Fish]

It also has to do with the damper as well. A google search might get a few hits. Koni based double adjustable front struts for some BMW applications are naturally noisy. They click/clunk with camber plates but are usually quiet with factory upper mounts. KW struts had the same issues for a while as well. I believe it had to do with the compression/rebound shim stacks being noisy or one or more of the wave washers used flatten out/looses tension over time.

Yes I agree that can be an issue. Factory upper mounts usually have some sort of damping in them (rubber bush etc.) and that will help isolate any NVH coming from spherical bearings further down.

 

[Dangerous Fish]

FYI, there isn't much Aluminum in the Model 3 structure. Only the rear subframe:

https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2017/08/5dyii0y.png

Knuckles, some control arms, front upper carriers are all aluminium. I was referring to the suspension rather than the body.

 

[tm1v2]

Yes I agree that can be an issue. Factory upper mounts usually have some sort of damping in them (rubber bush etc.) and that will help isolate any NVH coming from spherical bearings further down.

@Dangerous Fish In terms of transmitting road bumps and texture, it certainly helps that I'm running a functional tire sidewall height (245/45R18) and not the factory Uberturbine setup. The car is smoother than stock, with better steering response now.

With just the front suspension swapped out, the ride quality is no worse at all than stock suspension. I think it's actually better in the front but I'll reserve judgement until I get the rear swapped too, it's difficult to isolate how the front feels at speed when the stock rear suspension is still doing its busy ride thing.

Having stiffer mounts and bushings combined with reasonable sidewall height seems better than needing squishy mounts because you're running stretched rubberband tires that barely absorb anything and risk wheel damage on bad roads. Others' preferences may vary of course. Personally, if money were no issue I'd probably try the whole catalog of MPP or Redwood control arm upgrades. I'm sure with enough solid bearings I'd start feeling more harshness again, but the resulting sharpness and involvement might be worth it to me. Maybe someday...

 

[gearchruncher]

I was referring to the suspension rather than the body.

Gotcha. Aluminum control arms are pretty standard in performance cars for the last 20 year though, no?

 

[Motion122]

Yes I agree that can be an issue. Factory upper mounts usually have some sort of damping in them (rubber bush etc.) and that will help isolate any NVH coming from spherical bearings further down.

And as long as you don't have tower braces that act like tuning forks it's all good!

 

[Dangerous Fish]

Gotcha. Aluminum control arms are pretty standard in performance cars for the last 20 year though, no?

Sure, but knuckles as well? Even if plenty of ICE cars have them, it's the lack of soundproofing and engine noise masking some of these noises which is a contributing factor.

 

[Dangerous Fish]

@Dangerous Fish In terms of transmitting road bumps and texture, it certainly helps that I'm running a functional tire sidewall height (245/45R18) and not the factory Uberturbine setup. The car is smoother than stock, with better steering response now.

With just the front suspension swapped out, the ride quality is no worse at all than stock suspension. I think it's actually better in the front but I'll reserve judgement until I get the rear swapped too, it's difficult to isolate how the front feels at speed when the stock rear suspension is still doing its busy ride thing.

Having stiffer mounts and bushings combined with reasonable sidewall height seems better than needing squishy mounts because you're running stretched rubberband tires that barely absorb anything and risk wheel damage on bad roads. Others' preferences may vary of course. Personally, if money were no issue I'd probably try the whole catalog of MPP or Redwood control arm upgrades. I'm sure with enough solid bearings I'd start feeling more harshness again, but the resulting sharpness and involvement might be worth it to me. Maybe someday...

I have a Model 3 with all the rubber bushings on control arms eliminated and fitted with Ohlins dampers. Overall, there is an increase in NVH but it's not as bad as some might think. The Ohlins are largely responsible for keeping the ride compliant enough for it to be comfortable and that's even on 20" 35 profile Cup2s. The resulting sharpness is totally worth it IMO but I realise it's not for everyone.

There are a few noises I get which have been quite difficult to track down for the reasons I gave earlier. All those aluminiumm control arms with spherical bearings feeding into the rear knuckle make it quite tricky to narrow down how and where the noises originate, but I'm getting better at diagnosing the NVH issues on these cars now. It's a learning curve.

 

[Motion122]

I used chassis ears at my shop. It can help you narrow down the source of the noise.

 

[gearchruncher]

Sure, but knuckles as well?

Yes. The most direct competitor (BMW 3 series) has used aluminum knuckles since 2009.

 

[Motion122]

Yes. The most direct competitor (BMW 3 series) has used aluminum knuckles since 2009.

I believe ever since the E9x chassis so 2005/6. The x-drive still had cast iron/steel knuckles.

 

[tm1v2]

@P3D-R @Motion122 @MasterC17 Following up on the pillowball top hats NVH topic, I got my front Redwood Öhlins on yesterday, Performance Sport with Redwood's optional pillowball top hats. Also installed MPP FLCA bearings and compression rod inserts at the same time. (Started late, will get to the rear suspension another day.)

No NVH issues at all so far. No clunks or squeaks or pops or anything like that in normal local + highway driving, including over potholes, old railroad crossing, and other forms of messed up pavement. Of course how long the Redwood and MPP bearings last remains to be seen, but initially they are effectively silent. Note I haven't done any hard driving yet, that will wait until I get the rear suspension on (and dial in the height better + get it aligned). So far so good though!

As I mentioned, if any of these aftermarket spherical bearings wear out quick, e.g. within a year, I'll just swap to factory rubber and that'll be that. No big deal to me. If they last a long time, say 5+ years of my driving, I'll be very happy with that and will rebuild (top hats) / replace (FLCA) when needed. If they wear out sometime in-between, like after 2-3 years...well I'll see how I feel about them then.

Minor followup. In theory, even if the new spherical bearings are operating smoothly, they should still result in some amount of general increased NVH, like increased road noise or road texture vibration making its way into the cabin / steering wheel / etc. The car still has lots of soft stock rubber mounts and bushings, and 245/45 tires, but I did remove a little rubber so theory says there should be some NVH increase, even if it's not perceptible with just these mods.

Well, I think - and I'm not certain of this at all - there is a barely perceptible increase in general NVH at low speeds, specifically the N or maybe NV parts (basically the same thing at high frequencies). Think hearing the road texture and (front I assume) motor whine just slightly more (front because I've only done the front suspension so far). What I might be hearing is so subtle it could well be placebo effect. But maybe I'm hearing a real if subtle difference.

At highway speeds any NVH change I might or might not be hearing is definitely drowned out by the car's normal, pre-existing tire + wind noise.

The change (if I'm actually hearing a difference) is way less than the NVH difference changing tire models alone can make.

The change (if I'm actually hearing a difference) is way less than the variance sometimes seen between individual Model 3 or Y cars (e.g. see threads like Loud wind noise coming from roof on freeway?).

As background, with my last ICE car / last sporty car (8-12 years ago) I did mods like stiffer drivetrain mounts and various suspension bushing upgrades. All of them relatively street-friendly versions, not full racecar stiff. Whatever difference I might be hearing in my M3P now is much less than the difference I heard from some of those upgrades on that ICE car (none of which bothered me - in fact I really liked the engine + tranny sound improvements from putting stiffer rubber drivetrain mounts in that car).

The car is still clearly much less harsh than when it was 100% stock with the 235/35R20 rubberband tires.

So there you have it. There might be a barely perceptible increase in background noise. Or maybe it's the placebo effect...I'm really not sure, but I am leaning towards real and subtle. I don't know which parts are contributing the most, but I have to guess the pillowball top hats of course. Redwood themselves warned me of minor general NVH increase from them, as any vendor of pillowballs should if asked, and I already knew to expect that. The NVH difference is extremely minor and not bothering me in the slightest, if anything a bit louder extra motor whine is / would be a positive to me. Somehow even in very casual driving, just running errands around town, the car feels a little more engaging from the combination of mods installed so far - and I think all of them have made a positive difference. (Well I probably haven't done any driving where I'd feel benefit from the compression rod inserts yet.)

Obviously anyone wanting maximum quiet from their EV should skip the pillowballs and other stiffer bushing or mount upgrades, but you all don't need my writings to know that. For someone more into sporty cars and driving fun, and especially who has a concept of what bushing and mount upgrades can entail, these Redwood billet top hats and MPP FLCA bearings are completely tame and daily driver friendly. At least when new. Time and miles will tell how they age, which for sure is a critical aspect of being daily driver friendly in my mind, and something to be wary of with aftermarket spherical bearing upgrades in a street car application. (I learned that lesson early on in my car modding history!)

Rear suspension install happening this weekend hopefully...

 

[P3D-R]

Minor followup. In theory, even if the new spherical bearings are operating smoothly, they should still result in some amount of general increased NVH, like increased road noise or road texture vibration making its way into the cabin / steering wheel / etc. The car still has lots of soft stock rubber mounts and bushings, and 245/45 tires, but I did remove a little rubber so theory says there should be some NVH increase, even if it's not perceptible with just these mods.

Well, I think - and I'm not certain of this at all - there is a barely perceptible increase in general NVH at low speeds, specifically the N or maybe NV parts (basically the same thing at high frequencies). Think hearing the road texture and (front I assume) motor whine just slightly more (front because I've only done the front suspension so far). What I might be hearing is so subtle it could well be placebo effect. But maybe I'm hearing a real if subtle difference.

At highway speeds any NVH change I might or might not be hearing is definitely drowned out by the car's normal, pre-existing tire + wind noise.

The change (if I'm actually hearing a difference) is way less than the NVH difference changing tire models alone can make.

The change (if I'm actually hearing a difference) is way less than the variance sometimes seen between individual Model 3 or Y cars (e.g. see threads like Loud wind noise coming from roof on freeway?).

As background, with my last ICE car / last sporty car (8-12 years ago) I did mods like stiffer drivetrain mounts and various suspension bushing upgrades. All of them relatively street-friendly versions, not full racecar stiff. Whatever difference I might be hearing in my M3P now is much less than the difference I heard from some of those upgrades on that ICE car (none of which bothered me - in fact I really liked the engine + tranny sound improvements from putting stiffer rubber drivetrain mounts in that car).

The car is still clearly much less harsh than when it was 100% stock with the 235/35R20 rubberband tires.

So there you have it. There might be a barely perceptible increase in background noise. Or maybe it's the placebo effect...I'm really not sure, but I am leaning towards real and subtle. I don't know which parts are contributing the most, but I have to guess the pillowball top hats of course. Redwood themselves warned me of minor general NVH increase from them, as any vendor of pillowballs should if asked, and I already knew to expect that. The NVH difference is extremely minor and not bothering me in the slightest, if anything a bit louder extra motor whine is / would be a positive to me. Somehow even in very casual driving, just running errands around town, the car feels a little more engaging from the combination of mods installed so far - and I think all of them have made a positive difference. (Well I probably haven't done any driving where I'd feel benefit from the compression rod inserts yet.)

Obviously anyone wanting maximum quiet from their EV should skip the pillowballs and other stiffer bushing or mount upgrades, but you all don't need my writings to know that. For someone more into sporty cars and driving fun, and especially who has a concept of what bushing and mount upgrades can entail, these Redwood billet top hats and MPP FLCA bearings are completely tame and daily driver friendly. At least when new. Time and miles will tell how they age, which for sure is a critical aspect of being daily driver friendly in my mind, and something to be wary of with aftermarket spherical bearing upgrades in a street car application. (I learned that lesson early on in my car modding history!)

Rear suspension install happening this weekend hopefully...

It's too soon I think. You'll have to give us reports in 6 month increments and run them through different seasons/climates.

 

[thesmokingman]

It's too soon I think. You'll have to give us reports in 6 month increments and run them through different seasons/climates.

I've had Cusco sphericals on my sti for like a decade, no clunks. The joints on the RW are very good, definitely better than the joints Cusco uses.

 

[thesmokingman]

I have a Model 3 with all the rubber bushings on control arms eliminated and fitted with Ohlins dampers. Overall, there is an increase in NVH but it's not as bad as some might think. The Ohlins are largely responsible for keeping the ride compliant enough for it to be comfortable and that's even on 20" 35 profile Cup2s. The resulting sharpness is totally worth it IMO but I realise it's not for everyone.

There are a few noises I get which have been quite difficult to track down for the reasons I gave earlier. All those aluminiumm control arms with spherical bearings feeding into the rear knuckle make it quite tricky to narrow down how and where the noises originate, but I'm getting better at diagnosing the NVH issues on these cars now. It's a learning curve.

Strap a gopro to the chassis, etc and go from there.

For ex.