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Older Teslas limited to 90kW Supercharging

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My VIN is 1527, and my car supercharges at a maximum of 90 kW. Unlike many of you, I do not believe that I was promised 120 kW supercharging at the time I finalized the contract on my car in August of 2012. I certainly did not expect it at that time. I was promised that supercharging hardware would be "included" in the vehicle, but I expected to pay for the electricity. The rate of supercharging, the taper curve, the cost of supercharging -- all were unspecified. Vague statements like "almost 100 kW" and "potentially more" do not rise to the level of a promise. I agreed to buy a car with supercharging hardware, and that's what I got.

When the supercharger improvements were announced in the spring of 2013, I did expect that my car would charge at 120 kW. The 90 kW limitation was not mentioned in what was admittedly a poor job of communication. However, I was never promised 120 kW supercharging, at least not in the legal sense. I have read through the statements cited in this thread, and none of them clearly promise that every Model S will charge at 120 kW. The superchargers are capable of putting out 120 kW, but that doesn't mean every car will achieve that rate. These statements are not too different from the claim that the Model S travels 300 miles on a charge, or that it charges from a 240 V wall socket at 31 miles per hour of charge, or, for that matter, the claim that my cellular broadband provider can achieve data rates of "up to" 58 Mbps. I view this as puffery, not a contractual obligation.

Even if 120 kW charging had been a promise, there was no consideration to support it. Without consideration, any promise would be unenforceable. So I have to conclude that all the talk of a class action suit or fraudulent misrepresentation is simply going nowhere. To the best of my knowledge, the purchase contracts for all of the supercharge-limited cars were finalized before Tesla Motors made any promises regarding 120 kW supercharging. Could somebody sue? Of course. But as one of my teachers used to say, I can sue you for refusing to marry me; it doesn't mean I'll win.

A company that seeks to innovate rapidly will inevitably leave the early adopters behind. Indeed, it will leave every purchaser behind, because something newer will always come along. A company simply can't afford always to retrofit older cars with innovations developed for future cars. Imagine, for example, that Tesla Motors today develops a more efficient bolt pattern for attaching its batteries (i.e., an innovation that reduces the cost and increases the speed of production). Would we expect them to forgo the implementation of this change simply because it would preclude rapid battery swapping on older cars? Battery swapping has been announced, but has it been clearly promised that every Model S will be able to use the swapping stations? I think not. I believe the most we should expect is that the company will be honest with us, and will note (and explain the reason for) the limitations if and when the swapping stations are actually rolled out.

If we step back, it's hard not to conclude that our expectations for Tesla Motors have been too high. So why all the emotion, the bitterness, the intense feeling of betrayal? I believe it is because the early adopters (and I include myself in this) came to believe that Tesla Motors is a different breed of company. It doesn't engage in puffery. It makes things right, even if it has no contractual obligation to do so. It makes very few mistakes, and those are quickly corrected. Why else would we have put down $40,000 or $5,000 based on a distant promise by a company with a very short track record? I may not believe that I have a right to have this problem corrected, but I am pretty pissed to learn that the emperor has no clothes.
 
Just FYI: I received the same "form letter" response from Jerome last night. I was a bit crest-fallen for ourselves, but realize that the impact on our ownership experience will not be that great after all.

However, I remain deeply concerned that Tesla is horribly mis-marketing supercharging-- AND THEY DO NOT NEED TO! The technology is wonderful, the price can't be beat, the network is exploding onto the landscape. But WHY do they feel obliged to exaggerate its capabilities, both for the earlier cars (like ours) and even for the current generation. Nobody is going to get 200 miles of range in 30 minutes. Few people are every going to be able to make a meaningful stop in Elon's "20-22 minutes." Many people, when venturing off the network for their next charge, will be supercharging for an hour or more. None of those facts are deal-breakers, but they are irrefutable and inconvenient facts. Just tell the people what they get, at least in print (especially the web page), and let them make up their own minds.

As many others have said above, I have been a very ardent, almost fanatical supporter. My confidence in the company's representations is significantly damaged by all this. I will enjoy the car, yes; but I will be more cautious about what koolaid I am drinking, and more importantly, what koolaid I am willing to pour out for my friends and folks I meet out there on the road.

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P.S.: I was told separately that there are three generations or specifications of battery packs so far: "S1", "S2", and "S3". I do not know how long S1's were produced, perhaps just the Founder cars and beta demos. S2 packs are what all the Signatures and 2012 production cars got; these are the 90 kW-limited packs. The current generation (as of a couple weeks ago, at least) is S3. These are the 120 kW-capable packs.

I am sure there will be at least a few more revisions/upgrades during the life of Model S!
 
The following is information direct from someone I trust has the some of the best information at Tesla:

'The earlier battery packs in the early Model S had been built with cells and power electronics architecture slightly different from the ones in vehicles currently being built. While the cells have the same energy density, the same reliability and are backed by the same Tesla warranty. Out of an abundance of caution, especially in light of the constant attacks Tesla has to face, we decided to maintain the supercharging rate in the early Model S at their initial 90kW.

While the newer superchargers are capable of delivering 120 kW, please note that the increased benefit is to be able to charge more cars per day and reduce the potential waiting times at the supercharge stations - a benefit shared by all customers. For a customer charging from 20% to 90% (more than enough to go to the next supercharger station), the difference in charging time between an early car and a current car is less that 4 minutes! Of course the charging times vary, based on the supercharger load, temperature etc.'
For me the most interesting part of this and other threads relating to battery pack is this: the battery pack is replaceable, the battery pack determines the charging rate, the battery pack also determines overall longevity, the S2 battery pack (per Vger's nomenclature) is being limited for a reason that I'm interpreting as being related to cooling issues. At 90kW charging I've felt the heat pour off the front wheel wells as the fans kicked to full. The S3 packs are prolly made of cells that are better at scrubbing heat, possibly the packs themselves are better optimized for the task as well. I'm making an overall guess, but I'd suspect you could measure that by taking an S3 P85 to "track day" and it'll go faster for longer than an S2 P85.

Follow up questions relate to battery longevity, but I'm guessing the relative limits placed on supercharging keeps the battery longevity roughly equivalent. The issues aren't really around normal driving, they are around the limits.

Regarding the importance of the packs being replaceable -- I'm looking forward to plugging in a 500 mile pack in 10 years but by the same token I don't think I'll need to because the charging infrastructure will be so much better. :smile:
 
I'm definitely not trying to be disagreeable here. Things don't always come out the same in an email or forum thread as they do in a conversation so please don't take offense but I don't think Supercharging is ambiguous. It is not binary and never was. It was always variable. And expanding the range for newer cars does not violate the definition.

They didn't mention that our early cars would not support the new 120kW range but I don't see how a reasonable person would then conclude that that no longer fits the definition of supercharging. Especially since the highest rate originally mentioned was 90kW. The very fact that it changed implies that SC is not about one certain number or range of numbers.

Just my two cents. I'm still looking forward to hearing their story about this whole situation and why they didn't think they should tell us.

I don't mean to pick nits here but you can't change a word's definition to suit an argument. Something is ambiguous when it's open to two or more interpretations. In this case, 'Supercharging' either means 90kW or 120 kW (or maybe even 135kW) so it's an ambiguous term. If it helps, contrast that to the way Tesla defined the capabilities of the onboard charger(s). They were clear that each one was capable of 10 kW so we could expect to get a maximum of 20 if we bought two of them. The capacity of this charging system was unambiguous. What it boils down to is this Mr. Ckessel and I paid the same amount for supercharging (when we opted for the 85kWh battery) and we have the same model year car but it doesn't mean the same thing for both of us as mine can charge faster than his. The term 'supercharging' is open to the interpretation of 90kW charging and also 120kW charging so it is, by definition, ambiguous.

I do like your point about the limitations of online forums as a communication medium; they're imperfect and can lead to much misunderstanding. Please know that you didn't offend or insult me; I'm perfectly happy disagreeing and arguing about it. If nothing else I enjoy a good argument so bring it on! :wink::wink: Also, I'm a lawyer and we're not known for our tact so if you think I'm being an ass just say so! :smile:

Also, from reading the rest of the posts in this thread it seems that I misplaced my faith in Tesla to fix this problem for early owners. It's disappointing to see that George B's desire to make his customers smile vanished so soon after his departure.

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While the newer superchargers are capable of delivering 120 kW, please note that the increased benefit is to be able to charge more cars per day and reduce the potential waiting times at the supercharge stations - a benefit shared by all customers. For a customer charging from 20% to 90% (more than enough to go to the next supercharger station), the difference in charging time between an early car and a current car is less that 4 minutes! Of course the charging times vary, based on the supercharger load, temperature etc.'

Anyone else smell the BS here? Apparently the difference in charge times between the two systems is negligible (4 minutes) but they were willing to go to the effort and expense to roll out the 120 kW chargers in order to charge more cars in a day? It really can't be both. If you assume that it takes about 40 minutes to charge the 120kW car and 44 to charge the 90kW car to the SOC needed to reach the next supercharger and the Supercharger was in constant use through the day the 120 kW system is capable of charging about 3 more cars per day than the 90kW system.

Either the 120 kW system is a major benefit to all Model S owners because it is appreciably faster than the 90 and will therefore allow appreciably cars to use the same charger in a day or they're not appreciably faster and they won't. Seriously, have I missed something or is it more complicated? Are we not supposed to see the contradiction here? I honestly want to know because this makes me a little pissed at Tesla and I really don't want to be pissed at Tesla.
 
I don't mean to pick nits here but you can't change a word's definition to suit an argument. Something is ambiguous when it's open to two or more interpretations. In this case, 'Supercharging' either means 90kW or 120 kW (or maybe even 135kW) so it's an ambiguous term. If it helps, contrast that to the way Tesla defined the capabilities of the onboard charger(s). They were clear that each one was capable of 10 kW so we could expect to get a maximum of 20 if we bought two of them. The capacity of this charging system was unambiguous. What it boils down to is this Mr. Ckessel and I paid the same amount for supercharging (when we opted for the 85kWh battery) and we have the same model year car but it doesn't mean the same thing for both of us as mine can charge faster than his. The term 'supercharging' is open to the interpretation of 90kW charging and also 120kW charging so it is, by definition, ambiguous.

I do like your point about the limitations of online forums as a communication medium; they're imperfect and can lead to much misunderstanding. Please know that you didn't offend or insult me; I'm perfectly happy disagreeing and arguing about it. If nothing else I enjoy a good argument so bring it on! :wink::wink: Also, I'm a lawyer and we're not known for our tact so if you think I'm being an ass just say so! :smile:

Also, from reading the rest of the posts in this thread it seems that I misplaced my faith in Tesla to fix this problem for early owners. It's disappointing to see that George B's desire to make his customers smile vanished so soon after his departure.

My point about ambiguity is that Supercharging does not contain a number in its definition. It doesn't specify at that level. I am asserting here that by definition I have supercharging (even though I am limited to 90kW) and so does someone who can charge up to 120kW. Therefore the definition does not include an exact range of charge rate. Just like turbocharging in a car. The fact that a different compression boost graph exists for different turbochargers does not make the definition of a turbocharger ambiguous. It just doesn't define the amount of compression boost, only that it does boost.

I would call that definition generic with respect to the value, not ambiguous.

As evidence of my point, the original inventor of the Tesla Supercharger name agrees with the fact that I have SC capability and so does someone who has 120kW capability, and so will someone who gets 135 or 150kW.

I guess this is mostly semantics now that we know (sadly just though the grapevine) that we are truly limited to 90kW. The only reason I even feel bad is because I thought for 6 months that I had it. I still love my MS and I also still don't buy into SC as a solution because it is too time consuming (even at 120kW or 135 or 150). Making it faster increases the scenarios in which I am willing to drive my MS but we are not near the point where I would consider owning/using only a MS.
 
I have no idea if this is part of Tesla corporate mindset or not. That said...

It's the wrong mindset. Tricking customers is a bad idea. Part of what's kept Tesla alive is customer loyalty and trust. That's a two-way relationship that needs proper nurturing.
I agree that this is the wrong mindset, but I didn't mean to imply that mindset. I don't think they actually meant to trick anyone. I think they don't see it as a big deal, and they didn't think it was worth disclosing. Low and behold, we here figured it out.

I also think this is an issue with some serious group psychology issues coming to play. I think this is something only the most engaged customers even noticed and only because they were analyzing every detail, and not all even care. Basically, I think Tesla recognizes that and knows the general populace went notice or care and that populace is really dwarfing the rest of us now.

Further, it seems Tesla really sees this increase as done for the good of the group, not for speeding up individual charging times. They are looking to the future when the super charging locations are constantly full. It appears that this was never intended to speed up individual charging times, especially if they think that the difference is only 4 minutes. It would make no sense for them to invest money into something that saves individuals 4 minutes.

Also, Tesla seemed to always refer to this as an increase to super charger capability, not car capability. Maybe they never intended for it to really make a huge difference in the car (other than marketing purposes, haha) and the fact that sine cars could handle more was a side benefit.

Lyon, there is more to it than that. Think about when the chargers are full, which is when the wait time is an actual issue. according to them, 120 is all about reducing wait times. It's solving a future issue. These times where a every spot is in use, two cars are pulling off each super charger. With 90kw, this means they are getting on average 45kw. With 120 they are averaging 60kw. While this is the same percentage difference, what is important it's that the taper effect cuts out the difference between getting 120kw and 90kW in a car after about 100 miles.... However the taper doesn't lower the rate to below 60kw until much later, so customers are experiencing this benefit for much longer during the charge.

For the topic of the service plan, please someone point me to anything that says there is a difference in hardware upgrades for those on the service plan and those who pay annually. I opted not to pre pay because Teslas service rep told me there was no difference other than monetary. I decided I didn't want to use the cash on hand as it was a big purchase that had me holding off on other projects I wanted to use that money on. If it was more than a monetary difference, I definitely would have opted for it.

I really do hope battery swapping brings a mean to alleviate this issue for all of you. It benefits us all. The communication was pretty poor. I really think this does show that the emphasis on us extremely engaged customers is going to shrink over time. I think there is a better solution out there, but I don't think they are in a position to take those actions yet. Hopefully, the tapering can be fixed. That email gives me the impression that they don't realize that it is still slower for you guys.
 
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I think everyone can agree on the following:

1. Tesla is not likely to spend $100M to change batteries.

2. Tesla's communication is lacking and they've made some poor wording choices in their communications.

3. Tesla is breaking a lot of new ground in several areas and their enthusiasm sometimes gets ahead of their common sense.

4. Any of the 90 kW, 120 kW, or 135 kW charging rates are significantly quicker, and usually lower cost, than a 14-50 charge at an RV park or worse, a J1772 30 amp charge.

5. Tesla motorcars are high tech items. The only way to be happy with any high tech item is: Get the best you can afford and then never look at another ad or forum post until that particular high tech item requires replacement. Waiting six months will always get you more features and improvements--often at a lower price. However, you can wait six months forever and never have the enjoyment of driving one. The operative phrase here is, "If you can purchase it, it's already obsolete".

6. In summary it's a car, a great car mind you, but it's still a car and not a panacea. Everything that it's possible to purchase has features that aren't exactly the way you would like them to be. Tesla is no different in this regard. The only real decision is whether the parts you don't like are significant enough to cause you to wait until they are changed or purchase something else.
 
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I think everyone can agree on the following:

1. Tesla is not likely to spend $100M to change batteries.

2. Tesla's communication is lacking and they've made some poor wording choices in their communications.

3. Tesla is breaking a lot of new ground in several areas and their enthusiasm sometimes gets ahead of their common sense.

4. Any of the 90 kW, 120 kW, or 135 kW charging rates are significantly quicker, and usually lower cost, than a 14-50 charge at an RV park or worse, a J1772 30 amp charge.

5. Tesla motorcars are high tech items. The only way to be happy with any high tech item is: Get the best you can afford and then never look at another ad or forum post until that particular high tech item requires replacement. Waiting six months will always get you more features and improvements--often at a lower price. However, you can wait six months forever and never have the enjoyment of driving one. The operative phrase here is, "If you can purchase it, it's already obsolete".

5. In summary it's a car, a great car mind you, but it's still a car and not a panacea. Everything that it's possible to purchase has features that aren't exactly the way you would like them to be. Tesla is no different in this regard. The only real decision is whether the parts you don't like are significant enough to cause you to wait until they are changed or purchase something else.

Perfect summary and conclusion.
 
For the topic of the service plan, please someone point me to anything that says there is a difference in hardware upgrades for those on the service plan and those who pay annually. I opted not to pre pay because Teslas service rep told me there was no difference other than monetary.

I don't think we'll know that for some time. I'm also not inclined to believe everything I hear from a Tesla rep as they have sent mixed signals in the past.


I really do hope battery swapping brings a mean to alleviate this issue for all of you.

To me battery swapping is a gimmick which, if implemented, will cost Tesla a fortune. I expect them to install one or two of these to comply with any future regulatory requirements but that's about it. The only way I can see myself using one is if, down the road a few years, battery swapping plus an exchange fee gets you a better and/or larger battery.
 
Bottom Line:
41 minutes to 80% SOC (200 rated miles) at 120
55-58 minutes to 80% SOC (200 rated miles) at 90

That's a huge difference!

"Huge"? I'll go with "measurable", maybe even "significant", "noticeable" is appropriate, but "huge" for 14 minute? That's a half-cup of coffee or a few more pages in a novel. Let's keep it all in some perspective.

While contemplating how big " huge" is, and whether Tesla should spend maybe $100M to give early buyers new battery packs or instead spend the money on Gen3 and more Superchargers, don't forget all of the owners of other EVs that do not even support DC fast charging at all. Maybe that will offer another perspective on the speed of 90 kW charging. Even the other EVs that do support DC fast charging do not even approach the 90 kW rate. One reason that Tesla is so far ahead is that they are constantly improving their designs, and not waiting for an arbitrary "model year" cutoff to implement the improvements.

GSP
 
Someone mentioned that the battery charging is being limited by a cooling issue. If I remember correctly, didn't a few people have their cooling pumps replaced (upgraded)? Could there be any connection between the two?
 
While the newer superchargers are capable of delivering 120 kW, please note that the increased benefit is to be able to charge more cars per day and reduce the potential waiting times at the supercharge stations - a benefit shared by all customers. For a customer charging from 20% to 90% (more than enough to go to the next supercharger station), the difference in charging time between an early car and a current car is less that 4 minutes! Of course the charging times vary, based on the supercharger load, temperature etc.'

I believe Superchargers are most useful when they are in between origin and destination. For example, going between Miami and Tampa, the Fort Myers SC is placed well for this trip. Once I get to Tampa, I can charge at an L2 charger overnight. However, the SC would allow me to make a day trip to Tampa for a meeting and make it back to the SC to make it home without staying overnight. But now I know I can't reasonably do this with my car because of the taper differences between it and my hypothetical neighbor's car who got his 3 weeks later. Tesla doesn't seem to understand (based on their statement) that the 80%-100% time difference is important.

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While contemplating how big " huge" is, and whether Tesla should spend maybe $100M to give early buyers new battery packs or instead spend the money on Gen3
<SNIP>

This $100MM that keeps getting mentioned strikes me as straw man politics and assumes that the current batteries have little to no value when they are swapped out. It sort of proves the other side of the argument's point.
 
What happens when Tesla introduces 150 Kwh charging next summer? Is every one of the current 25k owners going to be up in arms that they were cheated by getting Supercharge-lite ?

Would we all be better off if Tesla does not roll out an innovation unless and until everyone gets the benefit of it ?

Just wondering...
 
>> I believe their time estimates are based on 0 rated miles starting SOC. [apacheguy]

> If driving a rated efficiency, this state ("0 rated miles") lasts for approximately 17 miles. Somewhat complicates things. [brianman]

Aim to arrive at the SC with 5 to 15 miles of battery remaining. Then cruise around town doing shopping, feeding, etc. When finished merely wend your way toward the SC working your way down to '0 miles'. If you happen to plug in at 'minus 2 miles' no problem, just wait for the '0' miles to turn to '1' then go back one minute on your data sheet making that the new starting point of your charge, the actual zero miles.
--
 
This $100MM that keeps getting mentioned strikes me as straw man politics and assumes that the current batteries have little to no value when they are swapped out. It sort of proves the other side of the argument's point.

If you take the battery pack cost as around $20k and there being about 2k cars then the cost is closer to $40M and true, the "old" batteries probably do have some residual value. That said, I still wouldn't expect Tesla to do anything that cost that much.

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What happens when Tesla introduces 150 Kwh charging next summer? Is every one of the current 25k owners going to be up in arms that they were cheated by getting Supercharge-lite ?

No, because at least folks now know about it. In fairness, I think the majority of folks are more irked about the poor communications than anything else.

My take is that the car did improve over and above my early VIN but....a directly comparable Model S today also costs $5k more than I paid (despite me also paying the "Sig tax"). I'm happy with the deal I made then, I'm less happy that Tesla/Elon make statements which turn out to be too vague in who they apply to. As a multi-billion dollar company Tesla needs to do better in future.
 
I would be interesting to find out S3 (120kW) packs degrade 5% per year due to the changes and see how nasty S3 owners get claiming I wanted a slower degrading S2 pack with slower charging. I can only imagine the uproar on this forum.

The issue here is communication. Tesla has a horrible record on that when it comes to customer service. Tell us what we are buying or else the dealership model will triumph. This whole thing could be used to say Tesla can't offer protection from itself to its customers the way a dealership can. That's a not a great argument, but why does Tesla insist on giving ammunition when announcing packs would be easier. They knew the problem. Don't tell me Elon is not detail oriented. If they had announced S3 packs, that would've been enough for me.
 
This is already possible to do at SC.
I don't see how a battery swapped at battery swapper would cost less than same quality battery swapped at SC.

I agree, but it's the only practical use I can see for battery swapping compared to Supercharging--assuming that both are located in the same area.

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This whole thing could be used to say Tesla can't offer protection from itself to its customers the way a dealership can.
My experience has been the opposite. At least with Toyota you have to go to the factory to get protection from the dealer.
 
P.S.: I was told separately that there are three generations or specifications of battery packs so far: "S1", "S2", and "S3". I do not know how long S1's were produced, perhaps just the Founder cars and beta demos. S2 packs are what all the Signatures and 2012 production cars got; these are the 90 kW-limited packs. The current generation (as of a couple weeks ago, at least) is S3. These are the 120 kW-capable packs
I was told something different several months ago. More specifically, S1=40 S2=60 S3=85. S1 never reached customers. This characterization was directly from a service center employee when I had an S2 sitting in front of me. Additionally, the S2 crate I was looking at said 60 kWh on it.