Older Teslas limited to 90kW Supercharging

[digitaltim]

Wow -- notable for at least 3 reasons:
1) Newest battery posted so far
2) Completely different sticker and part number than the ones posted before
3) Confirms they use "I" for a month code (I was thinking they may skip "I" like in VIN numbers) -- so this sets the most probable serial number coding as A-L == Jan-Dec

You've now messed up the table I'm compiling...



Kind of bizarre the left hand can't figure out what the right hand is doing, but please press them on it and post back here!

Nothing additional to report after my annual SC visit (Rockville, MD) - they are just as mystified and trying to understand the pattern as to who can and cannot supercharge at 120kW.

For anyone that works in corporate America, the disconnect between HQ and the field is all too commonplace.

 

[mitch672]

Now I'm going to have to crawl under my car only to find I have an AA battery!

You really only need to put the air suspension in "high", curb the steering slightly to the left, and lay flat on the ground passenger side front with your head looking at the front of the pack, which is now visible, to see the sticker, no need to crawl "under" the car, and I'd suggest you don't

 

[dennis]

I sent the following email to Jerome late last night. I'm hoping it gets a response.

Jerome,

I wanted to alert you to a group of Tesla customers who are currently very dissatisfied with Tesla’s communications. The issue, which I am sure you are aware of, is the inability of approximately 2500 early Model S VINs to utilize 120kw Supercharging. The crux of the issue is as follows:

1) When 120kw Supercharging was announced, there was no statement from Tesla that a subset of the Model S customers would only be able to charge at 90kw. It was described as a Supercharger hardware and Model S firmware upgrade, and all customers assumed they would get 120kw Supercharging since Tesla did not state anything to the contrary.

2) There has been no official communication from Tesla that there are in fact 2 (or possibly 3) versions of the 85kwh battery, and that owners who possess one version of the battery will be limited to 90kw Supercharging while others will enjoy 120kw Supercharging. Furthermore, Tesla has not told owners how to determine which version of the battery powers their Model S.

In the absence of an official statement from Tesla, owners who have discovered they are limited to 90kw Supercharging have tried various avenues to get an answer from Tesla as to why this is and how it will or will not be remedied. A couple who have contacted you have publicly posted your reply to them. As a measure of the energy around this issue, in the 25 days since the thread was first started on TMC, there have been over 700 posts. Many owners are now posting photos of the battery labels from the wheel well in an attempt to discern what the algorithm if for determining if they have a 90kw or 120kw capable battery.

I am writing to you to suggest that as soon as the quarter is over that Tesla work to quiet this unrest, because it is not going to go away. Previous concerns about the lack of P+ suspension or parking sensors being available for early VINs were addressed by Tesla by either stating that no upgrade would be available (parking sensors) or attaching a price to the upgrade (P+ suspension). I believe Tesla needs to make an official communication to the owners of the affected cars that indeed they cannot Supercharge at 120kw as previously advertised and offer whatever remedy Tesla deems to be appropriate (none, discounted battery upgrade, etc.). In the absence of an official communication owners will continue to speculate/vent/criticize and that is not good for Tesla and its desire to have satisfied customers.

Respectfully,
Dennis xxxxxx
Signature #00463

 

[ckessel]

Perhaps worth noting, but I previously hadn't been concerned about quick revs to the battery in part because in various interviews Elon had been asked when they expected to change battery technology and he usually answers something along the lines of "not for a few years" or "probably gen3".

When I purchased, those sorts of statements led me to think it was highly unlikely I'd be buying a battery that'd be obsoleted by newer ones in the 2013/2014/2015 model.

Now, in hindsight, I suspect Elon was talking major chemistry and/or form factor changes. In my mind though, at the time, I was thinking more along the lines that we wouldn't have the A/B/C/D packs we're seeing.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Perhaps worth noting, but I previously hadn't been concerned about quick revs to the battery in part because in various interviews Elon had been asked when they expected to change battery technology and he usually answers something along the lines of "not for a few years" or "probably gen3".

When I purchased, those sorts of statements led me to think it was highly unlikely I'd be buying a battery that'd be obsoleted by newer ones in the 2013/2014/2015 model.

Now, in hindsight, I suspect Elon was talking major chemistry and/or form factor changes. In my mind though, at the time, I was thinking more along the lines that we wouldn't have the A/B/C/D packs we're seeing.

^ this!

I couldn't agree more. One of my reasons for pulling the trigger was hearing those statements from Elon. I felt reassured that "what's under the hood" wasn't going to change a whole lot until Model S 2.0. The reason for my initial concern, quite frankly, had to do with the fact that I was spending $100k for a core technology that might be obsolete in 6 months or a year. I was under the impression that the core of Model S - drivetrain, battery, motors, inverters, etc. - was pretty much a fixed thing.

I don't have any issues with new features and options becoming available, but I am a little concerned that the battery which we all thought was pretty much a "done deal" has gone through as many as four iterations in just its first year. One or more of those iterations have resulted in some owners being left behind in terms of functionality and without those owners being informed, owners who paid the same amount of money and took delivery at about the same time as others who do not have this restriction.

To those just joining this discussion - Nobody is begrudging Tesla the ability to add new options to the vehicle, that's not what this is about. The issue is exactly that owners who ordered and took delivery of their vehicles at the same time received batteries with different supercharging capabilities without this being disclosed to the owners. This is where Tesla misstepped, in my opinion. It would be akin to two people purchasing the identical laptop in identical packaging, but one can connect to N and the other only G. I suspect the person who could only connect to G networks would be miffed.

 

[Vger]

I sent the following email to Jerome late last night. I'm hoping it gets a response.

Jerome,

I wanted to alert you to a group of Tesla customers who are currently very dissatisfied with Tesla’s communications. The issue, which I am sure you are aware of, is the inability of approximately 2500 early Model S VINs to utilize 120kw Supercharging. The crux of the issue is as follows:

1) When 120kw Supercharging was announced, there was no statement from Tesla that a subset of the Model S customers would only be able to charge at 90kw. It was described as a Supercharger hardware and Model S firmware upgrade, and all customers assumed they would get 120kw Supercharging since Tesla did not state anything to the contrary.

2) There has been no official communication from Tesla that there are in fact 2 (or possibly 3) versions of the 85kwh battery, and that owners who possess one version of the battery will be limited to 90kw Supercharging while others will enjoy 120kw Supercharging. Furthermore, Tesla has not told owners how to determine which version of the battery powers their Model S.

In the absence of an official statement from Tesla, owners who have discovered they are limited to 90kw Supercharging have tried various avenues to get an answer from Tesla as to why this is and how it will or will not be remedied. A couple who have contacted you have publicly posted your reply to them. As a measure of the energy around this issue, in the 25 days since the thread was first started on TMC, there have been over 700 posts. Many owners are now posting photos of the battery labels from the wheel well in an attempt to discern what the algorithm if for determining if they have a 90kw or 120kw capable battery.

I am writing to you to suggest that as soon as the quarter is over that Tesla work to quiet this unrest, because it is not going to go away. Previous concerns about the lack of P+ suspension or parking sensors being available for early VINs were addressed by Tesla by either stating that no upgrade would be available (parking sensors) or attaching a price to the upgrade (P+ suspension). I believe Tesla needs to make an official communication to the owners of the affected cars that indeed they cannot Supercharge at 120kw as previously advertised and offer whatever remedy Tesla deems to be appropriate (none, discounted battery upgrade, etc.). In the absence of an official communication owners will continue to speculate/vent/criticize and that is not good for Tesla and its desire to have satisfied customers.

Respectfully,
Dennis xxxxxx
Signature #00463

Excellent, measured communication. I hope you get more than the "form letter" that the rest of us got. Moreover, I hope this helps inspire them to provide a full and open communication on this.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

@AmpedRealtor, I think Jerome's statement seems to want to convey that these earlier unoptimized packs could have issues when charged at >90 kW and such issues could get the hungry media wolves circling again.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I sent the following email to Jerome late last night. I'm hoping it gets a response.

Jerome,

I wanted to alert you to a group of Tesla customers who are currently very dissatisfied with Tesla’s communications. The issue, which I am sure you are aware of, is the inability of approximately 2500 early Model S VINs to utilize 120kw Supercharging. The crux of the issue is as follows:

1) When 120kw Supercharging was announced, there was no statement from Tesla that a subset of the Model S customers would only be able to charge at 90kw. It was described as a Supercharger hardware and Model S firmware upgrade, and all customers assumed they would get 120kw Supercharging since Tesla did not state anything to the contrary.

2) There has been no official communication from Tesla that there are in fact 2 (or possibly 3) versions of the 85kwh battery, and that owners who possess one version of the battery will be limited to 90kw Supercharging while others will enjoy 120kw Supercharging. Furthermore, Tesla has not told owners how to determine which version of the battery powers their Model S.

In the absence of an official statement from Tesla, owners who have discovered they are limited to 90kw Supercharging have tried various avenues to get an answer from Tesla as to why this is and how it will or will not be remedied. A couple who have contacted you have publicly posted your reply to them. As a measure of the energy around this issue, in the 25 days since the thread was first started on TMC, there have been over 700 posts. Many owners are now posting photos of the battery labels from the wheel well in an attempt to discern what the algorithm if for determining if they have a 90kw or 120kw capable battery.

I am writing to you to suggest that as soon as the quarter is over that Tesla work to quiet this unrest, because it is not going to go away. Previous concerns about the lack of P+ suspension or parking sensors being available for early VINs were addressed by Tesla by either stating that no upgrade would be available (parking sensors) or attaching a price to the upgrade (P+ suspension). I believe Tesla needs to make an official communication to the owners of the affected cars that indeed they cannot Supercharge at 120kw as previously advertised and offer whatever remedy Tesla deems to be appropriate (none, discounted battery upgrade, etc.). In the absence of an official communication owners will continue to speculate/vent/criticize and that is not good for Tesla and its desire to have satisfied customers.

Respectfully,
Dennis xxxxxx
Signature #00463

I would send the same email to Elon Musk, and if you don't receive a response, send him a tweet. He seems to address negative tweets rather decisively.

 

[Zythryn]

@AmpedRealtor, I think Jerome's statement seems to want to convey that these earlier unoptimized packs could have issues when charged at >90 kW and such issues could get the hungry media wolves circling again.

Which makes perfect sense to me. So why not communicate it to us early owners?!?
It is wonderful that Jerome personally let a few know this. But I, for one, have only received "we are looking into this and have no update at this time" for weeks. Including AFTER people have been reporting this correspondence.

Tesla still lists the miles of charge per hour as a factor of the supercharger, rather than as a factor of the battery installed in the car.

 

[ckessel]

As the OP, I'll be honest in that I don't know what Tesla can do.

Much of the problem is poor communication and the email dennis sent covers that pretty thoroughly. Tesla gave folks foreknowledge on some other things, like price increases or that things like cold weather packages are coming, which people could use in their decisions. I wish I'd had information about impending battery changes since, in my case, it would have affected my choice on when to take delivery.

What would I like? I want to spend less time charging, but I have no idea what Tesla could do that's financially feasible. Replacing all the batteries isn't financially feasible and sets an uncomfortable precedent about just what does and doesn't fall under the "incremental change" clause. It's also a small return on investment, with a very high cost for modest gains in charging time. It'd take a few lifetimes of supercharges, even if I consider myself worth $100/hour (which I'm not), to amount to what it'd cost Tesla to do the replacement.

If battery swap stations were to be rolled out all over, offering X number of free swaps would be the ideal solution. That's directly addressing "time to recharge", but I don't think battery swaps are coming in any real quantities. Or at least not for many years. And I suppose we don't really know which cars will be swap compatible.

 

[hans]

I couldn't agree more. One of my reasons for pulling the trigger was hearing those statements from Elon. I felt reassured that "what's under the hood" wasn't going to change a whole lot until Model S 2.0. The reason for my initial concern, quite frankly, had to do with the fact that I was spending $100k for a core technology that might be obsolete in 6 months or a year. I was under the impression that the core of Model S - drivetrain, battery, motors, inverters, etc. - was pretty much a fixed thing.

I do believe that Tesla has been very poor at communicating with existing and prospective owners and I fully understand complaints about how they handle distribution of insider information.

However, just because your Model S Battery is not at the absolute leading edge, doesn't make it obsolete. The leading edge in tech always changes every 6-12 months. A Model S that can only charge up to 90 kW is still a very advanced and useful device. Let's not loose sight of that and appreciate what we have, rather than what we have not. Every Tesla on the road, including the Roadsters, are still a marvel of engineering and complaining about their limitations sounds to many like the person with the second biggest yacht in the world complaining that their boat is too small.

 

[efusco]

However, just because your Model S Battery is not at the absolute leading edge, doesn't make it obsolete. The leading edge in tech always changes every 6-12 months. A Model S that can only charge up to 90 kW is still a very advanced and useful device. Let's not loose sight of that and appreciate what we have, rather than what we have not. Every Tesla on the road, including the Roadsters, are still a marvel of engineering and complaining about their limitations sounds to many like the person with the second biggest yacht in the world complaining that their boat is too small.

True, but if I'm planning on buying an iPhone and I know the latest and greatest will be out in a month with more speed, more battery life, etc...I'm gonna wait until that one comes out...then I'll decide if I want the old one (which is usually cheaper by then) or the new one.

 

[hans]

True, but if I'm planning on buying an iPhone and I know the latest and greatest will be out in a month with more speed, more battery life, etc...I'm gonna wait until that one comes out...then I'll decide if I want the old one (which is usually cheaper by then) or the new one.

Fair enough. Then you should not have bought a Tesla Roadster, or perhaps even the first batch of the Model S and instead you should wait until a newer Model S comes out (usually more expensive) and decide if you want the older cheaper one or the new one. Repeat forever.

 

[Nickjhowe]

My renewal effective Jan 2014 went up over 400.00 because of the fires and experience rating cost to fix this car.

My renewal went down $20. Go figure.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Elon said they were designing 120 kw superchargers in Sept 2012. Therefore, when my car was delivered in October I reasonably assumed my car was indeed capable of 120 charging. I didn't know if Tesla would roll out 120 Superchargers, but I did have the expectation that my car was technologically capable. When Tesla said they would fully roll out 120 SC to all customers I assumed I was a customer, but apparently I'm not.

From what I have seen, the Sept 2012 announcement said there was a possibility of 120kW in a very vague way (and there was almost no mention of it afterwards for more than half a year, only reference to 90kW, not even the 100kW mentioned in the press release).

And back then the impression seems to be that the supercharger would be capable of total power of 120kW, not that it would provide it to a single vehicle (the thought was it would primarily be for split charging at 60kW per car and that maybe some other future vehicle like the Model X with a bigger battery would support 120kW):
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...se-the-Supercharger/page5?p=194899#post194899

This guess was premised on the fact that most of the battery enthusiasts on this forum had a reached a consensus that the battery cells in the Tesla can't accept much faster than 1C charging (85kW for 85kWh battery) so a larger pack would be needed to accept full power.

It was much later before they actually released details and promised 120kW would be all available to a single vehicle (starting with May 2013 supercharger rollout announcement). I agree Tesla communication there was unclear, but I don't agree that the announcement back in September 2012 led to many (or even any) people believing their cars can charge at 120kW (it was announcements that came much later that did, as well as updates to the website's supercharger page in reference to 120kW, which I found to be made after the May 2013 supercharger rollout announcement).

 

[Nickjhowe]

Here's mine.

 

[ronald.alberico@]

Being the first to have a new technology is great fun, but is always ultimately blunted by being the first to have an older version of that same tech. Unless you can purchase every upgrade, just enjoy the vehicle! When ready, trade up for the newest best version. Those that go first have the pleasure of knowing they are enabling the progression and stability of the platform for future use. That feeling doesn't go away. I own a roadster sport, and a Model S P85 (purchased before winter package and p85s was available) I am very happy with both vehicles. They may well be destined for classic car status so don't be too quick to upgrade. That rare p85 that only charges at 90kw may become a sought after vehicle in the not so distant future.

 

[jchangyy]

Hans, what bugs me a bit is the fact that someone with lower VINs (mine is 5486, 85kwh) got "B" battery. Assuming "B" means it can take recharge at 120kwh, then, whether you got "A" vs. "B" is not clearly demarcated temporally. At the time I got mine in Feb 2013, some received "A" while others got "B". At the time, we all paid the same for what we thought were getting the same battery. So, this is bit different than waiting for a better battery in my opinion.

It is similar to apple's macbook pro retina screen fiasco where some screens were made by Samsung and others by LG where people noticed more problems such as ghosting with LG monitors.

So, if you paid the same amount and got your car at the same time, why would anyone choose "A" vs. "B" if they knew "A" was limited to 90?

Now, as someone posted earlier, we still need to confirm these findings from official Tesla statement and explanation on when these changes were made, etc.

I'm sure Tesla will respond. I have faith.

 

[dhanson865]

I do believe that Tesla has been very poor at communicating with existing and prospective owners and I fully understand complaints about how they handle distribution of insider information.

However, just because your Model S Battery is not at the absolute leading edge, doesn't make it obsolete. The leading edge in tech always changes every 6-12 months. A Model S that can only charge up to 90 kW is still a very advanced and useful device. Let's not loose sight of that and appreciate what we have, rather than what we have not. Every Tesla on the road, including the Roadsters, are still a marvel of engineering and complaining about their limitations sounds to many like the person with the second biggest yacht in the world complaining that their boat is too small.

I totally agree Teslas communication on this issue is an issue. I even agree that for some the combination of firmware and battery type mean there issn't clear documentation of what speed charging they can expect at a supercharger. The whole supercharger situation is immature and has room for improved documentation.

With that in mind I still like to put the charging speed in context.

1.44 KW Nissan Leaf on 120v / 12a
3.84 KW Nissan Leaf on 240v using evse upgrade 16a (2011 and 2012)
4.8 KW Nissan Leaf on 240v using evse upgrade 20a (2013 and 2014)
6 KW Nissan Leaf with "6.6 KW charger" on a 27a or higher j1772 charger.
9.6 KW Tesla Model S on UMC 240v 40a
20 KW Tesla Model S with dual chargers on a HPWC
44 KW Nissan Leaf quick charge port (Chademo)
0-90KW if you are on a super charger and are sharing with the car in another spot and/or have enough charge that your charging rate has been decreased
up to 90 KW max Tesla Model S 85 with older battery on newer supercharger when you are the only one there
up to 105 KW max Tesla Model S 60 with newer battery on newer supercharger when you are the only one there
up to 120 KW Tesla Model S 85 with newer battery on newer supercharger when you are the only one there

So yeah if you pull up to to a deserted super charger with an empty battery and you "only" get 90 KW you are still charging 4.5 times faster than a HPWC with dual chargers or 9 times faster than UMC/HPWC on a single charger.

You would also be charging twice as fast as a Nissan Leaf with "quick charge port" Chademo and would still have vastly superior range at the end of even a 30 minute charge at 90 KW. Oh and did I mention you'd have a nicer looking, more comfortable car to use in the process?

 

[hans]

Hans, what bugs me a bit is the fact that someone with lower VINs (mine is 5486, 85kwh) got "B" battery. Assuming "B" means it can take recharge at 120kwh, then, whether you got "A" vs. "B" is not clearly demarcated temporally. At the time I got mine in Feb 2013, some received "A" while others got "B". At the time, we all paid the same for what we thought were getting the same battery. So, this is bit different than waiting for a better battery in my opinion.

It is similar to apple's macbook pro retina screen fiasco where some screens were made by Samsung and others by LG where people noticed more problems such as ghosting with LG monitors.

So, if you paid the same amount and got your car at the same time, why would anyone choose "A" vs. "B" if they knew "A" was limited to 90?

Now, as someone posted earlier, we still need to confirm these findings from official Tesla statement and explanation on when these changes were made, etc.

I'm sure Tesla will respond. I have faith.

I understand that some people care about VIN order, or purchase price order. For the the people like me who ordered many years before the first Model S was ever produced (or a factory even existed) the complaints were about discontinuities in the reservation order. We paid less, but we took a bigger risk with our money. I was P631 and yet people who reserved their car years after I did, got their cars delivered before mine. All the people who complained then should be happy now that the 60 kW cars were delayed and got the "B" batteries.

There is no perfect order to deliver cars, or features, other than one that is clearly communicated.