OK. $4800 for a reman1025598-00-T.
Any idea what they are asking for the non-reman 1002633-01-T (shown on the table posted by @dark cloud above?
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Out of Warranty Drive Unit Replacement and Cost
- Thread starter Pres_Res
- Start date
OK. $4800 for a reman1025598-00-T.
Any idea what they are asking for the non-reman 1002633-01-T (shown on the table posted by @dark cloud above?
Maybe @ajbessinger can add more info to the rows in the table you have posted regarding the coolant seal and the bearings typesThat would be super useful.
It would be logical to assume if reman and new manufacturing was done at the same time period, bearing + coolant seal choice would be the same.
But of course lots of problems with Tesla configuration control and org stability. SC techs told me in the past they use VIN to see car's component contents. Can't tell by year alone. Anyhow, these details isn't available to us so we are all reliant on statistics from likes of @ajbessinger to give us some data.
I'll PM and see if he can chime in... probably hard to keep up with all the chatter if he has to fix LDUs all day long
@ajbessinger has said that they charge about $4,800 to rebuild a drive unit. (And costs might have gone up from when he quoted that price.)
geordi
Mr Fusion V.1
I think I spoke with someone there a few weeks ago, and the price was higher than Tesla.... But my problem is verifying which parts the unit would have and the chances of this happening again in the future. Of course that would probably be 5 minutes after the warranty was out, so they would get to make more money off the poor design...
I'd want it fixed with the right parts, so that it was fixed ONCE.
For fix longevity, the question is can it last say 50-100k miles? I'm avoiding Tesla repair in answering this question based on the following reasons:
1. We have no evidence Tesla's DU has changed to the earlier longer lasting triple lipped coolant seal over the recent leak prone single lip seal.
2. Tesla doesn't add any kind of drain path or coolant barrier to the inverter. Guys like @ajbessinger are experts, I'm a reasonable DIYer. This forum include mix of pros and many non DIYer. Attached a over simplified schematic diagram for reference for non DIYer on explaining the operation and failure mode. I'll assume the potential Tesla cease and desist risk for now haha.
So regardless of Tesla's price or 4yr/50k warranty, I'm betting it will leak soon after but most probably low enough that it takes 10-30k miles to build enough volume to trash various components.
IMHO, QC Charge is light years ahead of Tesla on assessing and improving longevity of design. Whether Tesla can improve the design to meet our replacement schedule AND broadcast to the owner community (I'm guessing unlikely due to potential backlash) is for everyone to decide for themselves.
Of course there is greater difficulty+cost in transporting the car/DU to QC Charge rather than convenient local SC. Pretty much true of the battery failure repairs as well.
Note that LDU coolant leak is not the ONLY post warranty high cost item. The other one is the obviously battery. Contactor and cell/module failure seems fairly common > 100k miles. I believe the costs are like $2-3k ish for contactor and $25k at Tesla ($6k? ish at few indys nationally before transport) for battery cell/module failure to aid in calculating maintenance cost gamble.
1. We have no evidence Tesla's DU has changed to the earlier longer lasting triple lipped coolant seal over the recent leak prone single lip seal.
2. Tesla doesn't add any kind of drain path or coolant barrier to the inverter. Guys like @ajbessinger are experts, I'm a reasonable DIYer. This forum include mix of pros and many non DIYer. Attached a over simplified schematic diagram for reference for non DIYer on explaining the operation and failure mode. I'll assume the potential Tesla cease and desist risk for now haha.
So regardless of Tesla's price or 4yr/50k warranty, I'm betting it will leak soon after but most probably low enough that it takes 10-30k miles to build enough volume to trash various components.
IMHO, QC Charge is light years ahead of Tesla on assessing and improving longevity of design. Whether Tesla can improve the design to meet our replacement schedule AND broadcast to the owner community (I'm guessing unlikely due to potential backlash) is for everyone to decide for themselves.
Of course there is greater difficulty+cost in transporting the car/DU to QC Charge rather than convenient local SC. Pretty much true of the battery failure repairs as well.
Note that LDU coolant leak is not the ONLY post warranty high cost item. The other one is the obviously battery. Contactor and cell/module failure seems fairly common > 100k miles. I believe the costs are like $2-3k ish for contactor and $25k at Tesla ($6k? ish at few indys nationally before transport) for battery cell/module failure to aid in calculating maintenance cost gamble.
Last edited:
Yes, made it just now. Very rough, no details, not proper geometry or viewing angle. Kind of just schematic on the basic design and seal failure progression.
I watched most of @vanR video ( DIY Tesla Drive Unit Repair | Tesla Motors Club ) and read his posts and replies including @ajbessinger. Also searched various threads on drain mods so have a pretty good understanding on the failure modes, repairs, and mods. Did this to decide if I can DIY. Definitely need researchy meticulous personalities AND ability to handle hundreds of pounds subassemblies.
geordi
Mr Fusion V.1
Good writeup, it helps explain what is happening and why - Now I don't have a lift or the desire to faff around with a heavy motor and transaxle.... BUT I do have one critical question: Is this same failure present on the smaller standard drive unit? I have a base model RWD (was 60) that had a battery upgrade but NOT a drive upgrade. So while it has had an identity crisis on the firmware (thinks it has the large drive now).... I just want to hear happy news that this kind of failure is not in my possible future. I'm driving the snot out of it with road trips and it already has gained nearly 20k since I got it in nearly June.
Here is a post that suggest no fixed pattern which seals are in which rev DUs. Maybe Tesla doesn't even know unless they recorded the seal make+model.
Read post #5 / #6 DIY Tesla Drive Unit Repair
Perhaps best to assume easy to develop slow seepage leak with cumulative coolant causing bearing/inverter destruction anywhere from 20k mile onward. I have no idea other than judging by the milage we are replacing DUs. Thus, drain mod seems so important for longevity.
Read post #5 / #6 DIY Tesla Drive Unit Repair
Perhaps best to assume easy to develop slow seepage leak with cumulative coolant causing bearing/inverter destruction anywhere from 20k mile onward. I have no idea other than judging by the milage we are replacing DUs. Thus, drain mod seems so important for longevity.
geordi
Mr Fusion V.1
I thought they had changed something in the displayed information on my car when they fixed the battery - but I just found the picture I had taken when it was still reporting that it was a base 60... Says Motor type rear: Induction Large.
Bugger. That means possibly both of them could be subject to this. I had thought that since I didn't have the "performance" motor, then it was avoiding this.
Bugger. That means possibly both of them could be subject to this. I had thought that since I didn't have the "performance" motor, then it was avoiding this.
brainhouston
Active Member
Sorry, man...
RWD cars all have LDU just without the Performance electronics, i think smaller/weaker inverter but mechanically its the same unit.
ajbessinger
Owner of QC Charge #2 (Portland OR)
Sorry for the long delay in replying, I didn't check in here all weekend...
To answer everyone's questions as to what upgrades the Q motors have, they do all have the ceramic bearings, and as far as I know, they all have the single lip seals (or at least I've never seen one with a triple lip seal, even on motors built within the last year or two). I have seen a couple revision T's, and I'm not really clear on what makes them different. I originally thought it was that they were just the letter that denoted it being a performance drive unit, but I've also seen revision Q performance drive units (probably in higher numbers than T). The last T that I saw probably would have been several years old. I've also seen Q motors that were both "new" and "remanufactured", so it seems that the revisions have kinda become irrelevant the past couple years since they have stopped assigning new letters (even though some Qs do have differences from others, such as the newer style differential).
Also, to add a bit more info in regards to the diagram that howardc64 made, it's pretty accurate, but we actually have a total of 5 drain lines on our setup, as well as an added "sump" on the bottom of the inverter cover to catch any possible coolant that might get into that cavity (there's very little clearance between the bottom of the inverter and the cover, so the more distance we can put between the two, the better).
Unfortunately we can't completely fix the design flaws of the Large Drive Unit, but we try to mitigate them as much as possible, and attempt to bulletproof it against future damage as much as we can. As others have mentioned, our current price to do the rebuild on a Model S (assuming the motor isn't catastrophically damaged) is $4,750 if the car is sent to us. If you wanted to pull the Drive Unit yourself (or have another local shop pull it for you) and ship the just the Drive Unit to us on a pallet, then the cost goes down significantly. It's a lot of labor to remove and install as the whole rear subframe has to be removed...
Thanks again for another informative post.
A question out of my own lack of knowledge on this topic: Do these drain lines defeat the characteristics of the DU's being sealed units? I suppose you are drilling holes in sealed area?
sump pump... impressive haha. Further confirmation of "get coolant out of where it shouldn't be like the inverter electronics"
Another question: You said more lower mileage DUs has more leaks than higher mileage DUs. This suggest leak might be more likely while parked? I believe coolant circulates in the car while parked for battery thermal management. Do you know if that circulation is valved off to the DU? If not, there would be pressure on the seal while its static (rotor not turning) which might be another seal failure mode. In any case, thinking about that seal while parked instead of rotor turning might yield some additional failure explanations.
DU has breather holes (car differentials have breather hole to reduce sudden air pressure increase (cause seal leaks) when parts starts to move. Furthermore, when sealing various air path connected chambers in this DU to prevent coolant intrusion, air pressure equalization need to be considered and perhaps modified. I skipped over all that detail in my simplistic diagram) so its not completely sealed. I also believe the leak is minute (its not gallons that exit the cooling system suddenly, if so, we'd get a warning from onboard sensors) but unfortunately stays inside the DU and accumulates over time where coolant shouldn't be. Amount of collateral damage likely depends on amount leak build-up.
I think the failure is likely the following... minute seal leak maybe inevitable (need more statistics to make educated guess on how soon and depends on the seal AND shaft surface preparation the seal mates to) Gradually accumulates. Eventually enough to wash out the bearing grease on outer rotor bearing... This is probably when we start hearing initial noises and likely faint (probably drowned out by radio and wind noise), then gets louder as bearing wear. Accumulated coolant eventually may wash grease out of other bearing (rotor is spinning at 10k RPM so its a washing machine in there). Eventually enough coolant gets into inverter chamber and maybe starts shorting out electronics when it gets high enough. Just a guess based on the DU's mechanical structure.
Thanks for explaining. I was concerned about the possibility that the drainage holes would also introduce moisture intake and damage/corrode the electronics inside. But as you have explained, the system is not airtight sealed. Interesting.
ajbessinger
Owner of QC Charge #2 (Portland OR)
There are a few other things that can happen too... And depending on how severe the leak is, it may never start to make noise before the car starts to have isolation faults or other electro-mechanical problems.
The thing that will cause noise is not so much lack of grease in the bearing (at least short term), but rather rust forming on the bearing races, which are still steel (only the balls are ceramic). So if it's a slow leak, the bearing races will start to rust given enough time, but if it's a more major leak, coolant may get to the more sensitive components before the bearing ever makes any noticeable level of noise. Additionally, if enough coolant soaks into the windings, it can soak into the resin and create isolation issues between the AC side and the case (ground). If it gets to that point, it usually can't be dried out enough on a reasonable timetable to be able to be put back into service. I've seen this happen on numerous occasions... Yet another reason why it's important to check the speed sensor to catch a leak early.
I wouldn't necessarily say that its "mostly" low mileage D.U.s that I see seal issues with, it just seems prevalent to me that many of those cars that are not driven often seem to have issues. With enough wear even on a frequently driven car, it will still leak at some point, but generally they seem to of course last for more miles, but also a longer period of time. I don't think it has anything to do with pressure. If anything, some pressure may even be a good thing, as that would push the seal lip into the shaft. The cooling system in these cars though has so little pressure that it's not really even a factor to consider (maybe 2-3psi at the most). I suspect that the issue with the lower mileage ones potentially has to do with the seal somehow "sticking" to the rotor, and then getting damaged whenever the car is next moved and it gets broken loose, over enough cycles, maybe that creates accelerated wear. Not really sure as that's purely a speculative theory...
And yes, you are correct, the drive unit is not totally sealed. There are pressure differential vents in the gearbox, as well as the inverter cavity (which is normally open to the motor cavity via the 3 phase pass-through). Our kit does open up more areas to the outside, but they are all pretty well protected by the plastic under-body cover. The benefits of the drains far outweighs the tiny risk of external exposure. If you were to park the car in a foot of water, that could cause issues (but you shouldn't be doing that anyways...).
In terms of coolant getting into the inverter cavity, it doesn't take much, maybe 1/16", to come into contact with the wires that connect to the motherboard. Once coolant comes into contact with those wires, it can start to wick it's way up into the connectors and create corrosion on the pins and wires, which will short out the control board. It'll also start to evaporate and condense like a terrarium inside, which creates a buildup of dried up coolant residue and corrosion all over the inside of the cover (see attached pictures).
Attachments
Setup a website on rebuild build info directory on this LDU. Info is already on various forums and website services as an index directory. @vanR did majority of the contribution.
Gradually filing it up but lots of useful pointers already.
Tesla LDU (google.com)
Gradually filing it up but lots of useful pointers already.
Tesla LDU (google.com)
Pulled my perfectly working 2013 MS85 LDU with 30k on reman revQ. Got coolant leak in the inverter Still need to open the motor side and gear box to see the damage level.
Whats interesting is just like post #248's pic, no evidence of a coolant trail coming from the motor side. Makes me wonder if the leak is inside the inverter's coolant channels.
Anyway, play by play tear down is on a tear down thread here
teslamotorsclub.com
Lots of inverter coolant intrusion pics here
teslamotorsclub.com
Still need to open the motor side and gear box to see the damage level.Whats interesting is just like post #248's pic, no evidence of a coolant trail coming from the motor side. Makes me wonder if the leak is inside the inverter's coolant channels.
Anyway, play by play tear down is on a tear down thread here
DIY Tesla Drive Unit Repair
Check the youtube channel I started about DIY repair of the Tesla Large Drive Unit (DU). This may benefit those who like to fix their car themselves, epecially if it's out of warranty. Here is the link: https://youtube.com/channel/UCIHg1trfQQTYIA88w-ZcCdw Background: The DU in my 2012 Toyota...
teslamotorsclub.com
Lots of inverter coolant intrusion pics here
DIY Tesla Drive Unit Repair
Check the youtube channel I started about DIY repair of the Tesla Large Drive Unit (DU). This may benefit those who like to fix their car themselves, epecially if it's out of warranty. Here is the link: https://youtube.com/channel/UCIHg1trfQQTYIA88w-ZcCdw Background: The DU in my 2012 Toyota...
teslamotorsclub.com