Performance of P85D with Ludicrous upgrade review

[DillyBop]

Tesla 'Performance Mode' Easter Egg Lets You Toggle Between Vehicles

As mentioned earlier, the P90D will let you go back to P90D. But the P85D won't let you go back to P85D.

 

[sorka]

And I won't debate the ethics of it either.

How about "this is a good deal for a performance upgrade, unless you want to jeopardize existing power train warranty coverage."

That should cover it.

You mention 90's era vehicles and EPROMs. This is 2016 and what you're describing today, going outside of a stock calibration, can be detected by many manufacturers, even if the car is flashed back to stock before bringing it back in following a mishap.

The bottom line here, is that anyone these days modifying a stock vehicle for performance, especially to the degree of improving 0-60 times by this level, is running a significant risk of having a power train warranty claim denied, and furthermore, now more than ever before, is at greater risk of having either the modification or evidence of it detected.

This isn't the 90's. And to be fair, the cars you're referring to are long since out of warranty.

But if we're talking today's vehicles, desiel or gasoline, (and presumably we are, and if we're not, then why stop at 90's era vehicles, why not bring up 60's era muscle cars too?) you mod them for power, you significantly risk having a power train warranty claim denied.

You are of course free to argue this if you wish. However it is my hope that anyone out there with a late model performance car, or truck, regardless of make or model, Duramax, Vette, Viper, Mustang, Hellcat, I don't care whether it's a renown tuner like Katech, Lingenfelter, you name it, (my background is in GM vehicles primarily) intending to modify it for performance, especially if it involves an alteration or alterations in the stock calibration, i.e. a tune, goes in knowing that doing so jeopardizes the factory power train warranty.

People have gone so far as swapping out entire ECMs to avoid detection and still been detected.

Now the Tuner may offer a limited warranty on his work. But good luck if you get caught in the middle between him and the manufacturer, one blaming the other for the mishap, should you have to make a claim.

The above said, on the chance that I have overlooked something here, perhaps you can point to the current vehicle which can have it's 0-60 performance improved from 3.1 seconds down to 2.9 seconds without risking significant portions of any existing warranty coverage.

My point was this part of your statement below:

That's because in addition to what one would "pay" in terms of the modifications necessary to obtain such an improvement, one would also "pay", the loss of a powertrain warranty.

....yes but they wouldn't be paying $5K for the same power. They'd be paying a lot less for that power but without a warranty.

The point is that if you're not paying for a factory upgrade, it's often relatively cheap to add lots of power to cars even if you technically void the warranty. It's expensive to have this provided by the factory where it doesn't void the warranty. That's why $5K is not that expensive but if this were an aftermarket mode, it would be outrageously expensive.

 

[LegalCounsel]

And I won't debate the ethics of it either.

How about "this is a good deal for a performance upgrade, unless you want to jeopardize existing power train warranty coverage."

That should cover it.

You mention 90's era vehicles and EPROMs. This is 2016 and what you're describing today, going outside of a stock calibration, can be detected by many manufacturers, even if the car is flashed back to stock before bringing it back in following a mishap.

The bottom line here, is that anyone these days modifying a stock vehicle for performance, especially to the degree of improving 0-60 times by this level, is running a significant risk of having a power train warranty claim denied, and furthermore, now more than ever before, is at greater risk of having either the modification or evidence of it detected.

This isn't the 90's. And to be fair, the cars you're referring to are long since out of warranty.

But if we're talking today's vehicles, desiel or gasoline, (and presumably we are, and if we're not, then why stop at 90's era vehicles, why not bring up 60's era muscle cars too?) you mod them for power, you significantly risk having a power train warranty claim denied.

You are of course free to argue this if you wish. However it is my hope that anyone out there with a late model performance car, or truck, regardless of make or model, Duramax, Vette, Viper, Mustang, Hellcat, I don't care whether it's a renown tuner like Katech, Lingenfelter, you name it, (my background is in GM vehicles primarily) intending to modify it for performance, especially if it involves an alteration or alterations in the stock calibration, i.e. a tune, goes in knowing that doing so jeopardizes the factory power train warranty.

People have gone so far as swapping out entire ECMs to avoid detection and still been detected.

Now the Tuner may offer a limited warranty on his work. But good luck if you get caught in the middle between him and the manufacturer, one blaming the other for the mishap, should you have to make a claim.

The above said, on the chance that I have overlooked something here, perhaps you can point to the current vehicle which can have it's 0-60 performance improved from 3.1 seconds down to 2.9 seconds without risking significant portions of any existing warranty coverage.

The Porsche Panamera Turbo could be upgraded with the factory "S Powerkit", adding approx. 50 hp. This did not affect the warranty, as Porsche offered this upgrade as an official aftermarket upgrade option. However, the cost was over 18 000 euros in Germany (over 20 000 USD)! Compared to this, the Ludicrous upgrade for the P85D is "affordable"...

 

[P85DEE]

My point was this part of your statement below:



....yes but they wouldn't be paying $5K for the same power. They'd be paying a lot less for that power but without a warranty.

The point is that if you're not paying for a factory upgrade, it's often relatively cheap to add lots of power to cars even if you technically void the warranty. It's expensive to have this provided by the factory where it doesn't void the warranty. That's why $5K is not that expensive but if this were an aftermarket mode, it would be outrageously expensive.

I think that we are in agreement here more than we are in disagreement.

The game has changed a lot, and over the last few years even, when it comes to mods and power train warranty.

As I believe that you have experience in the GT-R, this point is hardly lost on you.

Because power train warranty is, at least to me, more important now than it has perhaps ever been in automotive history considering the complexity and expense of repair of today's vehicles, this was why I put the word "pay" in quotes.

It is indeed "cheap" in terms of cash outlay to cover the modification. A cheap wet nitrous kit will add significant power.

But at what "cost"?

My point was it will "cost" the peace of mind and yes, the potential real ability to have a safety net to cover potential expensive issues following the mod.

A "price" which one may or may not be able to avoid depending upon comfort level when it comes to risk exposure.

Whatever that is worth to one, well it would have to be taken into account in the overall "cost" of the modifications necessary to reach a given level of performance.

How much is losing your warranty worth to you?

The answer to that is going to vary amongst owners of any vehicle.

Now, how much will losing your warranty cost you?

The answer to that is difficult to know until you need it. But count on it "costing" you something should you need it.

It's like fire insurance. You don't need it unless you have a fire.

But you probably aren't going to cancel it if you have it, and assume the risk of covering any fire damage should you incur it.

You probably won't start doing things to your house exposing it to increased fire risk, if you know that doing such would result in your insurance company might not honor a claim should your actions result in a fire.

You pay for that peace of mind.

In addition to what I mean, there is another important point.

You paid for a manufacturer's power train warranty. It was figured into the price of your car.

Now that money is wasted because the mod has rendered the power train coverage agreement null should a failure occur as a result of your mod.

The Porsche Panamera Turbo could be upgraded with the factory "S Powerkit", adding approx. 50 hp. This did not affect the warranty, as Porsche offered this upgrade as .....

Thanks for the info. It is yet another reason why Ludicrous is a bargain.

 

[P85DEE]

My post should have read:

"You probably won't start doing things to your house exposing it to increased fire risk, if you know that doing such would result in your insurance company not honoring a claim should your actions result in a fire."

And


"You pay for that peace of mind...

And you also pay for the privilege of having your losses covered to a degree, in the event that the worst happens."

 

[bhzmark]

Tales of road play with vettes and BMW Ms and other reports and reviews with ludi enabled would be both more interesting, more on topic and more helpful to those contemplating the investment. Any such reports?

And any more pre and post time slip comparisons?

 

[CraZ8]

Tales of road play with vettes and BMW Ms and other reports and reviews with ludi enabled would be both more interesting, more on topic and more helpful to those contemplating the investment. Any such reports?

And any more pre and post time slip comparisons?

I would love to add my two cents how the ludicrous upgrade would do against various exotics. I raced against quite a few with insane mode at one of my car club events at a private runway last fall. It looks like my upgrade will be about 3 weeks late for spring event. I did win against a few ferraris and lambos but lost to some moded GTRs and a 911 turbo S with just insane mode

 

[P85DEE]

Tales of road play with vettes and BMW Ms and other reports and reviews with ludi enabled would be both more interesting, more on topic and more helpful to those contemplating the investment. Any such reports?

And any more pre and post time slip comparisons?

If you're into that sort of thing, this guy puts up a few good videos.

Here you go.

 

[LegalCounsel]

Thanks P85DEE for the videos.

However, why are there no videos of a P85D Insane vs. P85D Ludicrous drag race or P85D Ludicrous vs. P90D Ludicrous (there are only videos of P85D Insane vs. P90DL)? Such videos would be highly appreciated to show the true difference (if any) in the real world. I have only seen one very short poor-quality video of a P85D vs. P85DL launch from traffic lights on youtube.

Test driving a P90DL convinced me to sign up for the Ludicrous upgrade for my P85D, because the difference was definitely noticeable, since the head-snapping blackout-inspiring "insane" acceleration in 0-30 mph was still present at 50 mph on the P90DL, whereas on the P85D the power and acceleration clearly fades away after 30 mph. But reading these P85DL reviews seems to give a mixed and perhaps a little disappointing picture. Is the P85DL then noticeably slower than the P90DL so that my test drive of the P90DL gave too rosy expectations regarding the Ludicrous upgrade?

 

[lolachampcar]

Quantitatively speaking, the L upgrade allows both motor's peak torque to continue for just a tad longer in addition to allowing continuous draw to increase from roughly 1350 amps to 1500 amps. I doubt most would recognize that very slight increase in the amount of time you initially have full motor torque but everyone sees/feels the extra pull above 30 mph.

For me, the real argument for L was that it increased the single most impressive feature of a BeV drive train which is the ability to point and shoot at any time while driving. I seldom if ever launch the car in normal driving while I routinely fit in ever shrinking holes in traffic. The L update significantly increases the car's ability to find and occupy those holes. It was not "game changing" for me but well worth the money.

 

[MarcG]

However, why are there no videos of a P85D Insane vs. P85D Ludicrous drag race or P85D Ludicrous vs. P90D Ludicrous (there are only videos of P85D Insane vs. P90DL)?

This isn't a drag race, but I posted a video a while back highlighting the differences between P85D insane and P85D ludicrous at highway speeds, which is really where the difference is felt:

 

[P85DEE]

Thanks P85DEE for the videos.

However, why are there no videos of a P85D Insane vs. P85D Ludicrous drag race or P85D Ludicrous vs. P90D Ludicrous (there are only videos of P85D Insane vs. P90DL)? Such videos would be highly appreciated to show the true difference (if any) in the real world. I have only seen one very short poor-quality video of a P85D vs. P85DL launch from traffic lights on youtube.

Test driving a P90DL convinced me to sign up for the Ludicrous upgrade for my P85D, because the difference was definitely noticeable, since the head-snapping blackout-inspiring "insane" acceleration in 0-30 mph was still present at 50 mph on the P90DL, whereas on the P85D the power and acceleration clearly fades away after 30 mph. But reading these P85DL reviews seems to give a mixed and perhaps a little disappointing picture. Is the P85DL then noticeably slower than the P90DL so that my test drive of the P90DL gave too rosy expectations regarding the Ludicrous upgrade?

I've driven both a P90D with Ludicrous and of course my own P85D Ludicrous.

For me, there is no discernible difference between the two.

I've also seen no evidence in here, including thus far recorded 1/8 mile track times that there is much practical difference between the two.

However OTOH, I notice, and especially above 30mph or so, a significant difference between Insane and Ludicrous. Both in my own car vs when it was Inssne, and when it was Insane and driven back to back against a P90D Ludicrous.

Much better acceleration from a 30-40mph roll, all the way up to better acceleration and pedal response at a 50+ mph roll than what I had with Insane.

I said it in my initial evaluation. When people think of Ludicrous the tendency is to think of the launch.

That's a strong point, but IMO, not really the strongest point of improvement with Ludicrous.

It's the roll in performance improvements with Ludicrous vs Insane which makes it quite worth it for me.

 

[lolachampcar]

There is a minor benefit in the 90 over the 85 in that the 90's voltage does not sag quite so much as the 85 under the same current draw giving the 90 a very slight power advantage. I doubt much of anyone could feel the difference; I know I can not.

 

[BobM]

Excellent report, LolaChampCar.

 

[sorka]

I think that we are in agreement here more than we are in disagreement.

The game has changed a lot, and over the last few years even, when it comes to mods and power train warranty.

As I believe that you have experience in the GT-R, this point is hardly lost on you.

Because power train warranty is, at least to me, more important now than it has perhaps ever been in automotive history considering the complexity and expense of repair of today's vehicles, this was why I put the word "pay" in quotes.

It is indeed "cheap" in terms of cash outlay to cover the modification. A cheap wet nitrous kit will add significant power.

But at what "cost"?

My point was it will "cost" the peace of mind and yes, the potential real ability to have a safety net to cover potential expensive issues following the mod.

Warranty is more important to me now too than it used to be. I'm done with the tuner world. Way too much time and money with the occasional failure due to overbuild or improper balancing of power train mods. Heck, the tools alone were a fortune when you consider that I have a most of the specialized tools and diagnostic equipment found in most shops. Heck I have a Nissan Consult 1 and 3(the running on a Panasonic Toughbook), fuel pressure gauges, leakdown tester, snap-on digital torque wrenches, fiberoptic borescope, and every imaginable tool and adapter for getting into the oddest nooks and crannies(please nobody figure out where I live

When I no longer have gas cars in the future, half of it will be completely useless. Although things like cam and crank seal pullers will come in handy as long as I need to do my own timing belts.

 

[LuckyLuke]

I'm not sure if it has to do with my recent (March) Ludi upgrade, but since then I have been noticing some vibration at half to full pedal.
Brought it to the service center, they diagnosed it as a RH Driveshaft and "Jackshaft" problem. They replaced it under warranty, and the problem is gone.

I wonder if this problem was caused by the extra stress on the gearing and driveshafts?
Please note I regularly use the benefits and joy the Ludi upgrade brings (although not so often from standstill, I mostly play at moderate to highway speeds)

 

[LegalCounsel]

Thanks MarcG for the video. Would love to see a side-by-side drag race video DragTimes-style...

Thanks P85DEE and Lolachampcar for your input.

 

[James Anders]

Very in-depth testing here. Forgive me if this was posted but does anyone have 0-60 (or any acceleration) numbers for P90DL at very low SOC?

In other words, we know at it's best it does under 3 seconds...what about at it's worst?

 

[sorka]

There is a minor benefit in the 90 over the 85 in that the 90's voltage does not sag quite so much as the 85 under the same current draw giving the 90 a very slight power advantage. I doubt much of anyone could feel the difference; I know I can not.

How do we know this? What's the highest measured KW in the P90DL? We've seen 456 on a P85DL. Why does the 90 voltage sag less. It should sag more. Silicon added to the anode increases capacity at the expense of increasing internal resistance.

 

[lolachampcar]

It came straight off the CAN bus data logging comparison of a P85DL and P90DL with nearly identical states of charge. The 90 drooped slightly less with both providing almost identical 1500ish amps. Plots are in the thread.

The CAN bus messages seemed not to be affected by anode composition :0