Performance vs. Non-Performance & an extra $10K

[cinergi]

Personally, I enjoy G-forces. I enjoy driving nice cars. I just enjoy driving. I get the new car itch every 2-3 years. I value it enough to sacrifice other things in life. Now, I wouldn't know this if I hadn't been slowly stepping up the performance of the cars I buy every iteration. I think I knew it once I'd driven a Grand Prix GTP (supercharged V6).
Add to that the Roadster. Sure, driving the STi was fast. But it was loud, jerky, clumsy, and took skill/concentration. The Roadster gives me the opportunity to enjoy *smooth* acceleration frequently without working at it or making a racket, or smelling up the place, etc. I do it all the time. More than I did before (because it's so easy). And I love it. That's why I'm going with the performance Model S. Yes, I could use the $10k elsewhere, but I'll use the performance aspect *all the time* and I'll enjoy the thrill of doing it.
Do you like roller coaster rides? G-forces? ...

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

Todd, as you've seen from my poll thread, I had a different decision to make: vanilla 85 vs 60.

My wife and I are fortunate enough to get the Perf itself if we wanted to but... we chose the 60 over the vanilla 85 for all of the following reasons (some of which apply to the vanilla 85 vs Perf given the similar price jump there too):

- We decided to invest in Tesla's future in a different way; we recently bought into TSLA to the tune of that $10k. And, that's (hopefully) a good appreciating asset.

- We believed that the 60 pack with the options we chose (Tech Pkg, Air Suspension and Leather) offered us the most bang for the buck and gets us into a Model S that'd be great to drive with a range that's on par with the current Roadster and has been proven to be adequate for most folks in the real world. I'd make a crude comparison to a WiFi-only 32GB iPad - offering just enough storage and network connectivity to make it practical and relatively affordable.

- At the end of the day, it's just a car for us. We didn't want to sink too much money into it when we could funnel it towards possibly a house move, more college savings for our son and such.

- And, yes, if the wife's not too thrilled about the expense, one'd arguably regret it and not really enjoy the car anymore. It's just not worth it. I went down the path of debating with my wife over the purported merits of 85 vs 60 and she made sure that I got my priorities straight


Other thoughts:

- As many have said, unless you are a serious driver flooring it often and practically every time you drive (and maybe, by even taking it to the race track), you may not really miss the delta. I don't anticipate seeing the difference between the 0-60 5.9 sec for the 60 pack vs the 5.6 sec for the 85 that I sort of experienced during my test drive at Fremont. Agreed that the gulf is wider from 5.6 sec to 4.4 sec but, how badly do you need it?!

- TCO is, in all likelihood, going to be higher with the Perf. If you really push it, you are risking safety (no price can be put on that) and traffic violations (with consequent fines and insurance increases). The 21" rubber would need replacing more often too and is not an insignificant expense.

- Not that you said so explicitly, but, if you are looking at the Perf as a way to be the real cool kid on the block with that super car, IMHO, you'd be getting that already with the vanilla Model S.

- Speaking of EVangelism (as Chad mentioned above), if anything, you could blow folks away with the vanilla 85 and then, surprise them by telling them that a "Perf version" exists that's out of this world! Upsell would work given such a strong baseline.

 

[Jeeps17]

I have also been struggling with this dilemma, and am currently leaning more towards the Perf (Canadian pricing pending...).

I have 4 young children, and need a car that is polyvalent in what it can do, from a daily driver for myself to a family hauler for short-medium haul trips. As it stands now, the model S with rear-facing seats is the only sedan on the market that can carry my entire family (all the kids require child seats or booster seats, and are currently relocated using a minivan, our other vehicle).

As well, I will definitively not buy a high-performance sports car in the foreseable future (i.e. Porsche 911 variant, Aston, etc...), although I also enjoy driving nice cars and the rush of acceleration while dodging Montreal potholes. Such a purchase of a third vehicle makes little sense for me, and it would be an insta-veto from the wife in any case.

So the S Perf offers the best of all worlds for my specific situation, and for me the price delta is more than worth it (my perfect S would have AWD, but since I may get an X when the minivan dies that is less of a concern).

As an aside, a friend of mine collects vintage / exotic cars, and he was rather impressed when I told him of the performance to price delta when moving from the regular to perf S. He could not think of another car offering this kind of boost in performance (0-60) for such a (relatively) small increase in price.

My (soon to be phased out) 0.02$ CDN.

 

[Citizen-T]

My (soon to be phased out) 0.02$ CDN.

Good for you Canadians. I wish the U.S. would do the same.

 

[efusco]

Well, I did specify that getting perf was only for people that easily have the money to spare. A lot of them would indeed be happy to spend $10k they won't miss on bragging rights.

However, that wasn't my point. I don't want passengers to say "Wow, Chad got an awesome car". My point--why I used "doubters" rather than "friends"--was that I want my passengers to say "Holy *&%!, I had no idea what EVs are like; I want one!" In my experience, telling people how fast an EV can be does not do any good; you have to take them for a ride in a fast EV to convince them that EVs are something they would like to own. The more you blow them away viscerally, the more likely they are to take action and get themselves off petroleum.

That's part of the reason why I bought a Roadster. I didn't need a $100k sports car, and would never spend that on a gas car; but it sure has made a uniquely effective outreach tool. Plus getting a perf increases Tesla's margins (and increases future customer willingness to pay for the brand) and helps them get to the point where they can build cheaper cars so more people will be able to buy them. Clearly nobody needs a perf so nobody should stretch to get one; but if you won't miss the money, everybody wins when you get a perf.

If I had the extra $10 grand, this is the exact reasoning I would use...and is pretty much the rationale I'll use anyway. Unfortunately I'll have to let people drive my non-Perf and say Holy Sh*t...then break the news to them that they're driving the "Slow" version!!

 

[rcc]

I have also been struggling with this dilemma, and am currently leaning more towards the Perf (Canadian pricing pending...).

I have 4 young children, and need a car that is polyvalent in what it can do, from a daily driver for myself to a family hauler for short-medium haul trips. As it stands now, the model S with rear-facing seats is the only sedan on the market that can carry my entire family (all the kids require child seats or booster seats, and are currently relocated using a minivan, our other vehicle).

As well, I will definitively not buy a high-performance sports car in the foreseable future (i.e. Porsche 911 variant, Aston, etc...), although I also enjoy driving nice cars and the rush of acceleration while dodging Montreal potholes. Such a purchase of a third vehicle makes little sense for me, and it would be an insta-veto from the wife in any case.

So the S Perf offers the best of all worlds for my specific situation, and for me the price delta is more than worth it (my perfect S would have AWD, but since I may get an X when the minivan dies that is less of a concern).

As an aside, a friend of mine collects vintage / exotic cars, and he was rather impressed when I told him of the performance to price delta when moving from the regular to perf S. He could not think of another car offering this kind of boost in performance (0-60) for such a (relatively) small increase in price.

My (soon to be phased out) 0.02$ CDN.

That's pretty much right where I am. The 85KwH battery is a must-have for us because I want to be able to use the car for some longer family day trips. The gas savings really add up there.

If I can get past spending $90K on a car, the incremental bump for that added performance looks really attractive.

 

[Arnold Panz]

- We decided to invest in Tesla's future in a different way; we recently bought into TSLA to the tune of that $10k. And, that's (hopefully) a good appreciating asset.

...

- At the end of the day, it's just a car for us. We didn't want to sink too much money into it when we could funnel it towards possibly a house move, more college savings for our son and such.

gg makes another good point, which is that cars are a terrible "investment", even Tesla's. Other than truly vintage cars, all cars (even Roadsters) are inevitably going to be worth less after you've driven them unless you plan on holding the car for 30+ years, and even at that there's no guarantee it will ever be worth more than you paid.

Instead, you can take the $10k, but some Tesla stock and see what it's worth in a few years. As others have noted, unless you're a lead foot and/or feel the need to really impressive your friends and other EV doubters, you're better off saving yourself the $10k. I had a discussion with a VERY skeptical friend this weekend, and when he asked me the stats on the car and I told him 4.4 and 5.6, he couldn't believe it. He has a Jaguar XJ and thought there was NO WAY that an EV could go as fast as it does. The 5.6 amazed him, let alone the 4.4.

I should also add that not only do you have to replace the 21" tires more frequently, but my Tesla rep who helped me configure my car told me that those tires are incredibly expensive compared to the 19" tires. So the cost of ownership of the Performance is going to be more than the cost of ownership of the regular S, which is also a factor when considering how much to pay up front.

 

[brianman]

For me, the beige headliner is a bigger reason not to get the black interior since it clashes very visibly.

My eyes (and memory) tell me the headliner is cream/light-gray/white not beige. Further, Design Studio renderings show the headliner perfectly matching the Signature white interior seats and seat belt.

Note that in recent vehicles (@ Get Amped), the non-black seat belts have disappeared. I don't know if that means they are gone for production vehicles or not.

 

[brianman]

- At the end of the day, it's just a car for us.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but your forum handle suggests otherwise.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but your forum handle suggests otherwise.

Yes, I do want a Tesla - have been that way for ~4 years since the Roadster was unveiled But, I'm trying to keep things in perspective by terming it as "just a car"!

 

[Todd Burch]

I should also add that not only do you have to replace the 21" tires more frequently, but my Tesla rep who helped me configure my car told me that those tires are incredibly expensive compared to the 19" tires. So the cost of ownership of the Performance is going to be more than the cost of ownership of the regular S, which is also a factor when considering how much to pay up front.

The difference is about $400 a set based on prices at TireRack.com right now.

 

[Arnold Panz]

The difference is about $400 a set based on prices at TireRack.com right now.

Right, but you need to multiply that by the number of times you have to change the 21" versus the 19". Assuming 10k miles for the 21" and 20k miles for the 21", that's an $800 difference for each 20k miles. I'm only going based on what the Tesla rep told me. I know others on other threads here say that the 21" tires will get much better mileage than that, but I was told to expect to change them every 10-12k miles, and the 19" are more traditional and would last 20k miles.

 

[Todd Burch]

Right, but you need to multiply that by the number of times you have to change the 21" versus the 19". Assuming 10k miles for the 21" and 20k miles for the 21", that's an $800 difference for each 20k miles. I'm only going based on what the Tesla rep told me. I know others on other threads here say that the 21" tires will get much better mileage than that, but I was told to expect to change them every 10-12k miles, and the 19" are more traditional and would last 20k miles.

Agree...but from what I've heard, those are both pretty pessimistic mileage estimates unless you're flooring it all the time and taking the car to the track. The 21" treadwear rating is only about 23% less than the 19" (340 vs. 440). I'd expect closer to 30K miles on the 19s, of course depending on driving habits. This implies about 23,000 miles on the 21s. If you drive 15,000 miles a year, you'd change the 19s every two years and the 21s every 1.5 years.

Edit to make the math clearer: Over 6 years, you'd go through 3 sets of 19s ($1836) or 4 sets of 21s($3952). That's a difference of about $352 more per year. Not chump change, but I'm not sure I'd consider that "incredibly expensive". compared to 19s. I guess it depends on your perspective.

 

[Trnsl8r]

Because that's how they started out advertising this thing- $49k (after tax incentive). Hooked us all. I wouldn't have looked twice if they started out talking $80k+. Now I'm toying with $89K vs $100K. How did I get here. Who doped my drink?!

:-D Ha! Exactly my situation too.

And to the OP (I haven't read this whole thread, sorry), I'm almost in your situation, but have kids... and will probably be the secondary driver... so no performance for me. But for you, heck yes.

 

[jkirkebo]

I should also add that not only do you have to replace the 21" tires more frequently, but my Tesla rep who helped me configure my car told me that those tires are incredibly expensive compared to the 19" tires.

Incredibly expensive ? Well, they cost $247 at TireRack: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Continental&tireModel=ExtremeContact+DW&partnum=435YR1ECDWXL&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes

People have reported finding them as low as $206.

 

[Arnold Panz]

Incredibly expensive ? Well, they cost $247 at TireRack: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Continental&tireModel=ExtremeContact+DW&partnum=435YR1ECDWXL&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes

People have reported finding them as low as $206.

Well, I'm definitely going to come here for advice when it's time to buy my tires -- I think the rep told me each tire was at least $500! This makes me feel a lot better about not downgrading to the 19" rims, which I was only considering because I envisioned spending $2500 every six months for new tires!

 

[jkirkebo]

Well, I'm definitely going to come here for advice when it's time to buy my tires -- I think the rep told me each tire was at least $500! This makes me feel a lot better about not downgrading to the 19" rims, which I was only considering because I envisioned spending $2500 every six months for new tires!

You can of course spend >$500 if you want to
The Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 are $574 each: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Pilot+Sport+PS2&partnum=435ZR1PS2XL&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes

 

[rcc]

The price increase on 21" vs 19" Continental DW's is only about $120 which isn't bad at all ($988 vs $864). And the tirewear rating is the same.

The problem is there are so few tires available on Tirerack and many of them are not so good and/or really really expensive. The Continentals for example are nice tires but you can get a better 19" tire for not much more money. A set of 19" Bridgestone Potenza S-04's (Max Perf Summer) which are awesome tires will set you back $924. But probably wear down faster.

So if you like the 21" Continental's, you're probably ok. If not, you may be hosed.

Personally, I'm seriously thinking of ordering the Perf with the 19" wheels for the sake of better pothole safety and more and likely cheaper tire selection. But we'll see.

 

[pete8314]

This is a great thread, all food for thought, and validation that there's a lot of us with the same conundrum.

One of the potential reasons for me going to the P85 (over the S85) is resale value, but I'm not sure there's any evidence, at all, to support that theory. I know that almost any car is a bad investment. Buying it new makes it even worse. My current car I bought at a year old, when I get rid of it next May for the Model S, I will have lost around $10k on it, or, 25% of the value. That's after 3.5 years, which I think is pretty good.

I intend to keep the Model S for 5 years (that's long for me, normally 3yrs is the maximum for my boredom threashold). It seems that for this car segment, you should expect to lose ~20% in the first year, then 15% for the next few years, which means that (with my preferred options) an S85 would be worth 48.3k (price new: $98k with tax, pre-rebate) , and a P85 $52.8k (price new: $107k with tax, pre-rebate), so, in theory, you lose $4k more on the MSP.

But, this make a bunch of very generic assumptions. Maybe the P85 is regarded as the more despirable model, so retains it's value better? Maybe, in fact, the S85 is regarded by the marketplace as the bargain. What happens if, in year 3, Mercedes brings out an E-Class based on Tesla technology? Will that hurt Tesla's value? Will the GenIII undermine the Model S value, at least for the relatively 'plain' V1 models. It goes on and on, there's so many unknowns in the next few years that could have a very dramatic impact on the residual values. And this doesn't even consider advances in battery technology.

So, this is my main issue at the moment. I accept that cars depreciate, but I'm concerned that the Model S could be worse than other cars in this segment. Or maybe better. ?!?!?

 

[ckessel]

So, this is my main issue at the moment. I accept that cars depreciate, but I'm concerned that the Model S could be worse than other cars in this segment. Or maybe better. ?!?!?

In one interview, Elon felt depreciation would be better in an EV, though I think he was talking a much longer term than 3 years.