Petition: AWD to P3-

[Knightshade]

Fully agree here, in fact I think the suspension on the P is the weak spot. At this price point it should really come with an adaptive suspension with track tuning. Don't get me wrong it performs well but it could be so much better. One thing that GM does well is chassis engineering and suspension tuning.

If Tesla had offered a magnetic suspension on the P I'd have bought one... the lack (and at the time the nonexistence of track mode) made not spending (at the time) 10k more just to get to 60 1 second quicker an easy choice.

I am familiar with it and have modded many cars over the years. That said, most won't want to have that conversation with a service center and if they challenge you you have to lawyer up. Pay to play mentality when modding.

I've modded a lot of cars too- and there's only been one single time a dealer ever even suggested it would be a warranty issue, and as soon as I mentioned the name of the law, making him aware I knew about it, they never said another word to me.

I think we feel the car is not traction limited because of the how fast the traction control systems work on electric motors vs. ICE counterparts.

I can't speak for you- but I know it's not traction limited because of objective, measured, testing showing that adding traction to the car doesn't make it any quicker at accelerating.

A quick search showed folks have done this before and as expected without the nannies the car with its instant torque will roast the tires if you wanted to. I am not suggesting that this is a wise thing to do but the point is that the superior traction control system is what appears to be responsible for the traction and it is so good that it makes economy tires appear to perform much better than on an ICE car.

Ok, but 2 things-

1) Regardless of why it's not traction limited that doesn't change the fact stickier tires won't make it any quicker.

2) I'm not sure after just telling us changing your springs would leave you afraid of warranty denial you want to build an argument based on disabling basic safety systems in the car

 

[raptor5244]

Ok, but 2 things-

2) I'm not sure after just telling us changing your springs would leave you afraid of warranty denial you want to build an argument based on disabling basic safety systems in the car

I am not trying to win any debates here. Thanks for the conversation but I am just a fellow enthusiast that enjoys learning about our cars but you have turned it from a passionate discussion about the car to something else.

 

[davidada]

A power increase via a software unlock is nice and all but in order to make full use of the additional power it needs to be matched to the supporting hardware. Brakes, tires and suspension all should be upgraded to handle the extra power and provide safety. I would expect that if you add that 100hp/100lb ft of torque to an M3 with Primacy 18 inch tires traction control would kick in and prevent use of the extra torque anyway.

As a M3P owner the suspension and 4000lb+ weight are the weak spots for a true performance model. For a car this capable, it lacks that buttoned down suspension required to make use of all the power available. Straight line, with instant torque and AWD very few cars will be able to keep up with it, however, start throwing throwing this car into corners and you can tell there is a lot of room for improvement. This is fine for 95% of Model 3 owners since the majority of the performance will be used during short acceleration bursts during highway on-ramps but for folks that actually plan to track the car the aftermarket should be able to help.

The Performance model should have come with sport seats so you don't slide all over the place, adaptive shocks with drive modes, stiffer sway bars, bushings and more control over the AWD torque bias and traction control settings. Maybe in the M4P?

I agree with that ultimately you would have to do brakes , tires, suspension to take full advantage on track, however I don't think the added power to the LR AWD would cause any problems to everyday drivers wanting more off line and overtaking power. As you said even the performance version needs different hardware to fully exploit the power and the LR AWD could also be upgraded in this way.

 

[Sophias_dad]

When I was first configuring(May 2018, IIRC), P was a ~20k option and included all sorts of stuff I didn't really want, or at least didn't want to pay for. Not long after that, they added the - and + ideas, presumably when they saw the 20K P was going nowhere. I >probably< could have switched my order and reset the delivery clock, but I didn't really want to, and even 10K would have been a hard sell for 1 second better 0-60.

I'd still be pretty happy with a 3-4K P- upgrade, and I agree its a zero-cost, 100% profit for Tesla. Hopefully they'll have a bad quarter and need a profit infusion soon. The cost to Tesla would more likely be more difficult to measure.... the P3D- people who paid the $10k and then had other's cars upgraded for less would be unhappy.... its sorta like the AP/EAP/FSD thing a couple months back.

 

[Msjulie]

I have a Stealth Performance and I'm glad I was able to get the car that way.. You don't have to use all the extra zoom but nice that you can; the brakes are fine for street use and no brake/tire combo will keep you out of trouble if you drive like a moron..

I upgraded my brakes and my car did better on track than stock Performance (OEM big brake) cars regarding braking/overheating/etc and my car is still lighter and less likely to bend rims around town which is 99.9% of it's driving

There were other Performance cars there they did much better - ditched the 20's for some 18's and real race pads ..

@Sophias_dad hope Tesla does not have a bad quarter just so you can get a power upgrade but I'm not morally opposed to upgrades for folks as long as I can get a little more too?

Tesla Model 3 Performance shatters all-time EV lap record at Laguna Seca

It's been posted around, Model 3 breaking EV speed record at Laguna Seca (love that track)

 

[Watts_Up]

Are you saying for range purposes?
Appearance-wise the 18's don't really fill out the wheel wells on these cars,
which would not bode well for a Performance model.

The 20" are a magnet for potholes (See video at 14:10).
It seems to me 19" would be best mix of road comfort, weight, tread width, room for big brakes
I would certainly get wider tires, like 255/40/19, I find the 235 OEM to be too narrow, and prone to curb rash.

My question is why does the Performance model have the same width tire as the RWD and AWD?
I think the Performance model should have gone with a 19/20" 265 wide tire.
It would look more aggressive and offer more overall grip.

I was looking at Tesla Model 3 Performance shatters all-time EV lap record at Laguna Seca
and just looking at the picture, it seems to me that they are using staggered tires 255 front and 275 rear on 19"?

 

[raptor5244]

The 20" are a magnet for potholes (See video at 14:10).
It seems to me 19" would be best mix of road comfort, weight, tread width, room for big brakes
I would certainly get wider tires, like 255/40/19, I find the 235 OEM to be too narrow, and prone to curb rash.

Yeah, you definitely need to be careful with a 35 profile tire on any wheel for that matter. There are a lot of complaints on the Corvette forums about bent and crack wheels. Mainly because they are 335/30/20 in the rear and 275/35/19 in the front. If you hit a pothole with a 30/35 profile stiff run-flat tire something is gonna give and it usually winds up being the wheel in most cases.

I like the wider tires as well. I think a nice upgrade for the P model in the future is wider wheel tire package, maybe a staggered setup with 19" rears and 18"s up front. (Not sure if that matters with AWD?) They could also lower the car more and widen the fenders for a more aggressive stance like you see on BMW M cars. The P car needs more differentiation than the non P cars. That was my biggest gripe but I bought it anyway.

 

[Knightshade]

Yeah, you definitely need to be careful with a 35 profile tire on any wheel for that matter. There are a lot of complaints on the Corvette forums about bent and crack wheels. Mainly because they are 335/30/20 in the rear and 275/35/19 in the front. If you hit a pothole with a 30/35 profile stiff run-flat tire something is gonna give and it usually winds up being the wheel in most cases.

I like the wider tires as well. I think a nice upgrade for the P model in the future is wider wheel tire package, maybe a staggered setup with 19" rears and 18"s up front. (Not sure if that matters with AWD?) They could also lower the car more and widen the fenders for a more aggressive stance like you see on BMW M cars. The P car needs more differentiation than the non P cars. That was my biggest gripe but I bought it anyway.

In an AWD car, adding wider rims/tires to the rear will (generally speaking) induce understeer which isn't typically a desired condition on a performance vehicle- so square setups are preferred.

RWD guys sometimes can benefit from staggered though if otherwise traction limited in the rear

 

[raptor5244]

When I was first configuring(May 2018, IIRC), P was a ~20k option and included all sorts of stuff I didn't really want, or at least didn't want to pay for. Not long after that, they added the - and + ideas, presumably when they saw the 20K P was going nowhere. I >probably< could have switched my order and reset the delivery clock, but I didn't really want to, and even 10K would have been a hard sell for 1 second better 0-60.

Fully agree, it was too much for the hardware they were offering. I bought last month and was still on the fence between an AWD and P but they have them priced now where it was close enough for me to spring for the P. The AWD car I configured was $51,400 (Black car + 19s) and the 3P was $59,900. So, now we are talking $8500 delta. I still don't think the hardware they offer is worth that price delta but it is the only way to get the extra acceleration and track mode. In my mind, I figured $1-2k more for the brakes since if you really plan to track the car you will ditch them for something better anyway. $1-2k more for the wheels/tires, mainly the tires since the PS4s are pretty good. The trunk lid spoiler maybe $500 since it is carbon fiber. Pedals covers are cheap add-on.

So, Track Mode and any improvements they make to the tuning in the future will be pretty cool and worth a lot if you consider that normally folks have to pay a tuner to modify they car and void the warranty. And of course the main reason, the extra acceleration.

 

[JulienW]

Has Tesla agreed to swap my AWD for a Performance yet or do an upgrade? Surly this petition is going to be a 100% success and convince Tesla what a GREAT idea it is.

 

[lbowroom]

I think MPP is running 265s on 19 x 9.5 all around

 

[240W]

I like the idea.

But then it’d suck if the bean counters start charging for other stuff on future updates (like maybe viewing sentry clips in car, or enabling all cameras for tight parking, etc)

 

[240W]

In an AWD car, adding wider rims/tires to the rear will (generally speaking) induce understeer which isn't typically a desired condition on a performance vehicle- so square setups are preferred.

RWD guys sometimes can benefit from staggered though if otherwise traction limited in the rear

What’s your take on awd that comes staggered (f90 m5, gtr, etc)?
Is it because they’re more rear biased, is the 3 also?

 

[Knightshade]

What’s your take on awd that comes staggered (f90 m5, gtr, etc)?
Is it because they’re more rear biased, is the 3 also?

It's possible there's some engineering thought around rear bias in some cases, but my honest opinion why? It looks better.

Same reason car makers put functionally-inferior drilled rotors on cars instead of solid (better for street use) or slotted (better for track use).

 

[mswlogo]

Understood, but that doesn't mean it was a good idea and look how long it lasted. AFAIK there is no Track Mode option for the P-. We are talking about a car that can pull off 0-60 in 3.2 sec and 1/4 in 11.7s. Those times are on par with 650hp ZL1 Camaros, Corvettes, Challengers, etc. Putting that level of performance on a set of Michelin Primacy "Prius" tires is just silly talk.

P3- Does have Track Mode. I’ve yet to even try turning it on. I have since put 19” wheels on, but they are far from performance tires.

I think P3- now has the same top speed as P3+ as well.

I certainly wouldn’t mind the P3+ brakes, but I definitely do not want the 20” OEM wheels.

 

[Watts_Up]

Fully agree, it was too much for the hardware they were offering.
I bought last month and was still on the fence between an AWD and P but they have them priced now
where it was close enough for me to spring for the P.
The AWD car I configured was $51,400 (Black car + 19s) and the 3P was $59,900.
So, now we are talking $8500 delta.
I still don't think the hardware they offer is worth that price delta but it is the only way to get the extra acceleration and track mode.
In my mind, I figured $1-2k more for the brakes since if you really plan to track the car you will ditch them for something better anyway.
$1-2k more for the wheels/tires, mainly the tires since the PS4s are pretty good.
The trunk lid spoiler maybe $500 since it is carbon fiber. Pedals covers are cheap add-on.

So, Track Mode and any improvements they make to the tuning in the future will be pretty cool
and worth a lot if you consider that normally folks have to pay a tuner to modify
they car and void the warranty. And of course the main reason, the extra acceleration.

I liked the 19" wheels which are a good compromised about look and handling.
I wish they were available on the Performance version, so I ordered the AWD instead.
Note: This is a transition car, knowing that there will be a Model Y with a more practical hatchback.

 

[67King]

It's possible there's some engineering thought around rear bias in some cases, but my honest opinion why?

More overall grip. And when you increase the width at one end, it not the other, you increase the spring rate at that end. Example I went from square 245 to staggered 285/245 on my race car. Rear spring rate went from 500 to 800 (off of memory, now have a totally different setup and better dampers).

 

[dfwatt]

My point is as you make a car more powerful you are supposed to improve its braking, tire grip and beef up the suspension as necessary to make use of all that power. For street use I agree it will not make much difference because you can't/won't really reach the cars limits on the street anyway.

Agreed on the the aftermarket but potentially voiding the warranty on a car such as this is a scary proposition considering the battery cost, etc. , which is why a factory version is ideal for some. The brake pads that come with the MP3 are definitely street pads as they have no bite to them. Great for low noise and dust but not great for spirited driving.

As for the 0-60 stuff, if the times on Primacy tires are the same as the PS4s then the size and weight difference may be off-setting it somewhat but I have a hard time believing it. I think that the car is still traction control/software limited it still. The traction control system is tuned such that you think you are not traction limited but if we could turn it off we would quickly find out. We need a better understanding of how these traction control systems work with electric motors vs. ICE based cars.

As for overall tire performance, here was a quick test done between the 18s and the 19s on the Model 3 and it showed improvement in acceleration, braking and lateral grip.

Although it certainly seems improbable and counter-intuitive, the performance dual motor versions that came without the upgraded Brakes and Tires and were running on 18 in Michelin Primacy tires are actually just as fast if not a tiny bit faster in their 0 to 60 times as the regular performance versions. The difference in unsprung weight probably made them a tenth of a second quicker . This is simply because the dual motor performance car is not traction limited unless you put some kind of virtual bicycle tire on it. Even the Primacy is capable of 0.95 G's of straight line grip, and the most the car can generate is about .88 Gs at its power Peak. A lot of people who go to the drags with the car actually downgrade to the skinniest 18 in rims they can put on the car.

 

[raptor5244]

Although it certainly seems improbable and counter-intuitive, the performance dual motor versions that came without the upgraded Brakes and Tires and were running on 18 in Michelin Primacy tires are actually just as fast if not a tiny bit faster in their 0 to 60 times as the regular performance versions. The difference in unsprung weight probably made them a tenth of a second quicker . This is simply because the dual motor performance car is not traction limited unless you put some kind of virtual bicycle tire on it. Even the Primacy is capable of 0.95 G's of straight line grip, and the most the car can generate is about .88 Gs at its power Peak. A lot of people who go to the drags with the car actually downgrade to the skinniest 18 in rims they can put on the car.

Thanks. It appears that AWD combined with the advanced "digital" traction control systems are able to control the torque so well that they make ECO tires a non-issue for traction on this car. It is quite amazing actually that you can have over 450lb ft of instant torque and not even screech the tires.

When compared to traditional torque management systems on ICE cars where you have to retard timing and use other mechanical methods to control wheel slip the tires size and compound becomes so much more important to get traction.

 

[dfwatt]

The 20" are a magnet for potholes (See video at 14:10).
It seems to me 19" would be best mix of road comfort, weight, tread width, room for big brakes
I would certainly get wider tires, like 255/40/19, I find the 235 OEM to be too narrow, and prone to curb rash.

I was looking at Tesla Model 3 Performance shatters all-time EV lap record at Laguna Seca
and just looking at the picture, it seems to me that they are using staggered tires 255 front and 275 rear on 19"?

View attachment 426374

Those are 18x10.5 inch wheels front and rear, so those tires are way wider than 275. Probably 295 or 305.