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Phantom Braking Discussion
- Thread starter chengka
- Start date
Thank you Stach. A nice demo. Now queue the goalpost move......
So far, yes, though I only have 1700 miles. I only use autopilot on the freeway, and I turned off stopping for red lights. It has been great and made driving much less stressful. I think that the radar-less cars are better in this case, since when I did test drives a year ago, I experienced phantom breaking, and it was bad. But so far it hasn't happened with my vision Y. My wife just took a 5 hour drive and used it the whole way, and my wife and computers don't get along
. Except for putting her in autopilot jail for the last half hour, she loved it.Go do a test drive, and ask for a new vehicle so you can test one without radar. What we did for our test drive is asked for a half hour for both of us, got on the freeway, and played with AP. Really strange and terrifying using AP at first...
What do you think the goal post is? You accused me of this before but I don’t think you know what my position is.
A truck/vehicle drifting into your lane doesn't sound like it should count as "phantom" braking. That's a legit safety concern where AP should back off or take other evasive action.
My car lets off the throttle (though not braking) from time to time as well. Yes, I think it's due to mapping info.
My car lets off the throttle (though not braking) from time to time as well. Yes, I think it's due to mapping info.
Semi-Trucks get close to the line all the time especially on some sections of I5 in WA where the lanes were narrowed. The average speed differential between semi-trucks and cars on I5 (where its 70 for cars) is 10mph to 15mph so that's how much braking it does so it can be a bit startling.
I would definitely count it as phantom braking because the trucks weren't over the line. If they were over the line I'd honk at the truck, and I'd blame them.
For maps related issue the degree is dependent on the maps error. In Tacoma there is a section it slows way down at (if you let it) because it thinks a turn is coming ahead.
With NoA I've had it totally freak out when it thinks its about to mix an exit where it would dramatically slow down. I can't say if that's been fixed or not as I haven't used it much in awhile.
Not me, I know how to drive - the car doesn't. At least not yet, and that's the point.
All I came in here for was to ask if people noticed a significant difference between phantom braking with basic AP vs FSD and all I find is a highly unproductive flame fest. Maybe as Mobyshake mentioned, those of you who do not experience phantom braking, what type of environment do you normally drive in? What settings are active/inactive? How are the roads, how are the drivers, lighting, etc? May be helpful for us to better understand root cause if there is a disparity.
All that said I agree with a previous poster, test drive if you can.
It doesn't matter how aware you are or not, phantom braking can be a make or break if you value cruise control. It is annoying, you don't always know when it's going to happen, and will take some muscle memory to learn (all overpasses, tunnels, transition b/w asphalt and concrete, lone construction cones along a closed exit, incorrect GPS data).
My interactions with Phantom Braking (unrecorded) have been on both divided and undivided highways, but all have been straight and not curvy. I do not consider a precautionary brake near aa rogue vehicle as a phantom event. I would categorize them into heavy braking events and light braking events downs.
At this point I have been trained to keep my foot closer to the pedal and am slowly getting accustomed to the mild braking events but haven't get engrained the reflex to hit the "save" button or the horn.
FWIW: Vision only MYLR, Blue, basic AP, reasonably clean windshield, I have all the driver assist features active except for lane departure warning.
Almost all events have been during daytime with clear weather, divided and undivided highways, medium traffic to low traffic and I am typically the slowest driver (at or +5 the speed limit).
Events have occurred on well maintained roads as well as roads with construction cones, or roads that have been patched. I haven't had events under an overpass/tunnel, and drive under a set of 5 frequently.
For me, I'm not positive. I have faith that Tesla will be able to resolve this. I took delivery in the beginning of June and immediately took it on a 3 hour road trip where there were probably 10 events there and back. I really appreciate AP and AS, but one of the other big reasons I purchased was to help myself by having my wife drive on road trips (I previously owned a manual). I can say with confidence that she has not and will not use AP or AS until the phantom braking goes away and I would not feel comfortable with her using them.
All that said I agree with a previous poster, test drive if you can.
It doesn't matter how aware you are or not, phantom braking can be a make or break if you value cruise control. It is annoying, you don't always know when it's going to happen, and will take some muscle memory to learn (all overpasses, tunnels, transition b/w asphalt and concrete, lone construction cones along a closed exit, incorrect GPS data).
My interactions with Phantom Braking (unrecorded) have been on both divided and undivided highways, but all have been straight and not curvy. I do not consider a precautionary brake near aa rogue vehicle as a phantom event. I would categorize them into heavy braking events and light braking events downs.
At this point I have been trained to keep my foot closer to the pedal and am slowly getting accustomed to the mild braking events but haven't get engrained the reflex to hit the "save" button or the horn.
FWIW: Vision only MYLR, Blue, basic AP, reasonably clean windshield, I have all the driver assist features active except for lane departure warning.
Almost all events have been during daytime with clear weather, divided and undivided highways, medium traffic to low traffic and I am typically the slowest driver (at or +5 the speed limit).
Events have occurred on well maintained roads as well as roads with construction cones, or roads that have been patched. I haven't had events under an overpass/tunnel, and drive under a set of 5 frequently.
Thanks for this! We did test drive a couple of times, and the mach-e once (really didn't like the Ford at all). Didn't experience any phantom braking during the 2 30-40min drives and loved the brief drive, the style and minimalistic interior...but it was locked in chill mode and unfortunately the closest SC is 1.5 hours away so not something I have time to do on a regular basis. We're having some serious discussions about cancelling this order...lot's I can do with ~$60k - especially if the car's not going to be enjoyable. I probably spend too much time on different sites; some are over the top love while others, like r/RealTesla are so full of hate and Neanderthals that try to sound intelligent it's sometimes hilarious. Anyway it's hard to get a true picture with all the biased noise and not a lot of owners in my area either. Because we're indecisive on this (and not smart enough to figure it out) - we're going to let fate decide, we've set a date and if we don't have it by then - sorry Elon, moving on.
I recall you posting that same incident. That's from ~10 months ago and who knows how many firmware versions past.
I regen "hard" on freeways all the time and it's not dangerous. I rarely use the brakes and just let off the throttle when taking exits.
I regen "hard" on freeways all the time and it's not dangerous. I rarely use the brakes and just let off the throttle when taking exits.
After several daytime and nighttime tests with AP/AS, I can report that 2021.4.18.10 is much improved wrt phantom braking. The same 40 minute drive on the stretch of I-97 between Baltimore and Annapolis previously produced between 1 and 3 phantom braking incidents per trip using SW 2021.4.18.1 - .3 has improved to zero incidents over the past week with .10.
I can confirm this is much better after a 2 hour round-trip to Connecticut yesterday on NoA. The three places I almost always had PB I got nothing. In addition, the only event I did have I managed to remember to tap the horn. I noticed that I was in the middle lane of a 3-lane highway and some road design genius had posted a 30 mph speed limit sign in between the highway and one of those loooong exits that follows the highway, so I THINK the AP computer read it is a speed limit sign for me and started to hard brake because I'm set to speed limit +5, and then it realized "oh *sugar* I'm on a highway with a 65MPH Speed Limit" and went right back up to a 70 preset and stopped braking. I didn't even have time to override it. I put the bug report in via voice, as usual.
I did get a nice honk from the guy behind me who was following too close and thought I had done a BTFO brake on him, but then at least he did BTFO until he could pass me and flip the bird. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I can also confirm it is much better with 18.10 from 18.3
I drive the same 175 miles every day of the week and get 1-2 hard phantom brakes and 15-20 light ones each day before 18.10 Now it is roughly 1/4th that so much improved but far from acceptable. Radar on my Corolla has ZERO issues for the previous 15 months so Tesla is still playing catch up on TACC. BTW, using AP or NoA makes no difference, it still phantom brakes no matter who is steering the car.
My next task is to gather video for all those that don't believe phantom braking happens in the new Tesla Vision. I have a new (June 12) M3LR and will be honking my horn a lot this week....
Well I honked my horn 5 times today for significant phantom braking (3 times I didn't honk with vehicles next to me). After looking at the USB Drive and Dashcam app, nothing saved. And yes I triple checked before driving that it is set to record on honking...and still is set to record. The Dashcam will save if done by the icons on the top of the screen, just not with my horn.
FWIW, drove my 1 month old vision only MY from Seattle to Portland and back on I5(-300 miles) with AP only ( all safety measures enabled but not FSD. 18.10 sw. part time cloudy, part time bright sunlight, light traffic, medium traffic, heavy traffic, trucks, motor homes, boat trailers etc., lots of overpasses. Was very apprehensive about phantom braking but only time any issue was in a construction zone that was just completed over the last week and momentarily car thought speed limit was 50mph instead of 60 but before I could react was back to 60. Was cut off a couple of times by trucks and slowed down appropriately. Overall was pleasantly surprised.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Actually that one is easy to explain. You just passed a 55mph speed limit sign right at the point it braked and you were going 65. It was overly aggressive and braked you to 47 mph, but it would seem the obvious trigger is the speed limit sign.
That's basically been my recent experience with my Radar+vision Model 3 with TACC. The only difference in my experience is the phantom braking ALWAYS occurs at least once on I5 going through Tacoma. In my case it seems to be attributed to a maps issue where it thinks a turn is up ahead, and slows down. This is with TACC only so there is no speed changes due to speed limit.
Cheburashka
Active Member
I solved some of my phantom braking issues by disabling traffic control (BETA). My drive has improved significantly since then. However in some places it seems like the car still brakes for no reason at all.
For those in the Bay Area, 17N right before the cats, my car has always slammed the brakes and still does to this day.
For those in the Bay Area, 17N right before the cats, my car has always slammed the brakes and still does to this day.
I will have to try that out, thanks for the suggestion.
For the most part, my phantom braking is when I am alone on the road. When I am in traffic it rarely has an issue...unfortunately 90% of my drive is very lonely.
I had two phantom braking incidents Wednesday; one daytime, one nighttime. The daytime event reduced speed only a few mph before resuming the set speed, and *may* have been caused by a car merging onto the highway two lanes to the right. The nightime incident appears to have been caused by the change in pavement, and resulted in heavy braking. The event occurred on the ICC in Maryland where the asphalt paving (dark grey) changes to concrete (light tan) on an overpass.
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