Phantom Braking

[Dewg]

The problem exists across all ADAS to varying degrees, the question is to what degree in what brand/model and how many of those vehicles are on the road? How many complaints are being filed to regulators? What changed in the 2021+ Tesla models that created such a massive uptick in complaints and why are things getting worse rather than better? What is Tesla currently doing to address this?

In the Hyundai/Genesis examples above, it sounds like the occurrences are so rare that people are able to pick out what mileage and where the incident happened. Flip to the Tesla Phantom Braking investigation and the NHTSA says people complain it "often happens repeatedly in a single drive cycle" and seemingly at random.


I don't know if people want a lawsuit and some payout, I imagine people want the problem fixed and to have functioning cruise control. Action in the legal system leading to a response from regulators can most definitely be a tool for pushing companies to spend money fixing issues that otherwise might be neglected in lieu of putting resources towards things that bring in more $$$ revenue and profit rather than just increase costs.

I think the biggest issue is inconsistency. There are many people who've seen a definite improvement in PBs over time. I had bad PBs early on when I bought my Y in early 2021. I had the classic radar problems, PBs at overpasses and large freeway signs. Once vision took over, things improved a little, and then started improving dramatically after I was accepted into FSD Beta.

Not sure why some people are having PBs get worse as updates roll out. Camera hardware problems? Calibration problems? Software corruption? Excess cache clogging the OS?

 

[AndrewZ]

I think the biggest issue is inconsistency. There are many people who've seen a definite improvement in PBs over time. I had bad PBs early on when I bought my Y in early 2021. I had the classic radar problems, PBs at overpasses and large freeway signs. Once vision took over, things improved a little, and then started improving dramatically after I was accepted into FSD Beta.

Not sure why some people are having PBs get worse as updates roll out. Camera hardware problems? Calibration problems? Software corruption? Excess cache clogging the OS?

FSD Beta is key to recognizing the deferred FSD revenue Tesla has collected over the years, so it might not be surprising that things are better on that development stream. Outside of pleasing current owners and perhaps getting more repeat sales as a result, Tesla gains $0 for fixing this issue in Autopilot and will incur costs along the way.

In terms of the causes, that's a great thing for the regulators to dig into and they are requesting an insane amount of data from Tesla in the investigation that should help shed some light -- unfortunately we'll likely never see it as Tesla will claim confidentiality across the board

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2022/INIM-PE22002-87085.pdf

 

[2101Guy]

another factor may be..expectations. A Hyundai owner may not really have that high of expectations from their automated driver assist type systems.
Example: when Ive rented Nissans for work, and use the lane keep system? The thing bounces from left to right, right to left within the lane. Add to that, Nissan doesnt really make wild proclomations about their systems. How magical they are/will be/can be. So expectations are low, and I assumed the cars systems were meeting (low) expectations of what it does.

On the other hand, if Nissan touted themselves as being able to go across country with no driver, is basically level 5, will be totally complete by end of this year, will serve as driverless uber service...

Then my expectations may be a bit higher/different.....and thus, I might be inclined to consider the issues not normal, and I might file complaints too

 

[Mark II]

Yes, I do. In fact I quoted it directly to you:

" the Tesla AP / TACC is defective."

Seems pretty specific.


Are you also ignoring the dozens of other people who made similar claims- often with other "I owned brand X and it worked great so clearly it's Teslas problem" claims- which were routinely debunked by posting links of whatever Brand X was having PB reports?

Yes, the Tesla AP / TACC is defective. That does not mean others are not also defective.

 

[2101Guy]

8:08 mark
For those who SWEAR Phantom Braking is not real/people are making it up

 

[2101Guy]

with this version "you will notice MORE phantom braking..."

 

[clydeiii]

He…doesn’t say that? Around 8m he seems to be talking about old behavior, but I’m not going to watch whole vid to understand full context.Also at 8:08 it slows down 1mph..? Is that really PB?!

 

[sleepydoc]

Yes, the Tesla AP / TACC is defective. That does not mean others are not also defective.

@Knightshade seems to have severe problems with his/her logic. "no one has died so therefore it's not dangerous" "Hyundai has problems so therefore Tesla doesn't have problems"

One confounding issue I've brought up before is that of terminology. Tesla seems to have (at least) two issues: unprovoked AEB activations and unprovoked slowing/braking while on TACC/AP/FSD. Both of these get lumped under the moniker 'Phantom Braking' but they are different in frequency and severity. When looking at other automakers, I haven't been able to discern whether their issues are with false AEB activations or phantom braking with adaptive cruise systems. The impression I get is it's the former but I haven't confirmed that.

Regardless, based on conversations I've had with other Tesla owners, owners of other cars with adaptive cruise and my own experiences with other adaptive cruise systems, I'm convinced that even if the other systems have occasional episodes, they are orders of magnitude more common in Teslas.

 

[sleepydoc]

He…doesn’t say that? Around 8m he seems to be talking about old behavior, but I’m not going to watch whole vid to understand full context.Also at 8:08 it slows down 1mph..? Is that really PB?!

yeah, I noticed that too. pretty poor example.

 

[Knightshade]

.

@Knightshade seems to have severe problems with his/her logic. "no one has died so therefore it's not dangerous" "Hyundai has problems so therefore Tesla doesn't have problems"

You seem to have a severe problem with truth as I said neither.

I DID point out no one has even had an accident. At all.

So the claim it's dangerous seems contrary to all actual evidence.

Again I find it incredibly hard to buy you work in the sciences in any capacity, let alone as an MD, given your complete resistance to basing your views on actual facts and data.

 

[2101Guy]

He…doesn’t say that? Around 8m he seems to be talking about old behavior, but I’m not going to watch whole vid to understand full context.Also at 8:08 it slows down 1mph..? Is that really PB?!

8:21 "you will notice MORE phantom braking" is what I hear.

Just prior to that he references the shadows on the road as the culprit. Clear as day is what I hear him say.

 

[clydeiii]

8:21 "you will notice MORE phantom braking" is what I hear.

Just prior to that he references the shadows on the road as the culprit. Clear as day is what I hear him say.

At 7:50 starts talking about what it would do, presumably on older versions. That is the context of 8:21.

 

[clydeiii]

8:21 "you will notice MORE phantom braking" is what I hear.

Just prior to that he references the shadows on the road as the culprit. Clear as day is what I hear him say.

But also I don’t expect them to fully solve PB in the nearterm, it’s a really hard problem.

 

[2101Guy]

At 7:50 starts talking about what it would do, presumably on older versions. That is the context of 8:21.

Listen again. Correct, he is saying how it USED to behave when other cars were coming the opposite direction. How it USED to behave in relation to those cars.



But listen very closely at 8:07 he says "if you SEE (not saw..SEE) shadows like that? It WILL(not used to...WILL..present tense) brake sometimes...it WILL think that there is a car in front..."

 

[Dewg]

Listen again. Correct, he is saying how it USED to behave when other cars were coming the opposite direction. How it USED to behave in relation to those cars.



But listen very closely at 8:07 he says "if you SEE (not saw..SEE) shadows like that? It WILL(not used to...WILL..present tense) brake sometimes...it WILL think that there is a car in front..."

I totally heard that, and get what you're saying. However, it's ironic that he says it and points to the road while his car does NOT phantom brake.

 

[rjpjnk]

I think the biggest issue is inconsistency. There are many people who've seen a definite improvement in PBs over time. I had bad PBs early on when I bought my Y in early 2021. I had the classic radar problems, PBs at overpasses and large freeway signs. Once vision took over, things improved a little, and then started improving dramatically after I was accepted into FSD Beta.

Not sure why some people are having PBs get worse as updates roll out. Camera hardware problems? Calibration problems? Software corruption? Excess cache clogging the OS?

My PB is a little worse now than usual. Perhaps worst ever. Not sure why. It does seem to go up and down over the 15 mos I’ve owned it. I think the car has mood swings.

 

[2101Guy]

I totally heard that, and get what you're saying. However, it's ironic that he says it and points to the road while his car does NOT phantom brake.

I interpreted it as the shadows cast on the road, and what reminded him at the specific time. That he still encounters PB due to shadows cast on the road.

Or who knows. Maybe he is a tsla short who was 100% lying in his video, and the software he was using now (and going forward..no regressions) eliminates phantom braking and he made the whole thing up. Same with the poster just above this post. MOst likely a person who is lying and is shorting the stock.
yeah..thats it.

 

[Dewg]

I interpreted it as the shadows cast on the road, and what reminded him at the specific time. That he still encounters PB due to shadows cast on the road.

Or who knows. Maybe he is a tsla short who was 100% lying in his video, and the software he was using now (and going forward..no regressions) eliminates phantom braking and he made the whole thing up. Same with the poster just above this post. MOst likely a person who is lying and is shorting the stock.
yeah..thats it.

Or he did experience PBs as he described, and was indicating where they would occur. It was just ironic that they didn't occur as he mentioned them. Would have been more impactful if he had a PB while he was describing what causes them for him.

But if you want to call him a liar, go right ahead.

 

[clydeiii]

Listen again. Correct, he is saying how it USED to behave when other cars were coming the opposite direction. How it USED to behave in relation to those cars.



But listen very closely at 8:07 he says "if you SEE (not saw..SEE) shadows like that? It WILL(not used to...WILL..present tense) brake sometimes...it WILL think that there is a car in front..."

Yeah but he isn’t the most eloquent or accurate speaker and this is his first drive on this version so clearly he must be talking about past versions.

 

[drtimhill]

“The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) received enough complaints about phantom braking to launch a formal investigation in 2022. Coupled with a filing to initiate a class action lawsuit”

oh well, if there is a class action then it MUST be true! As for NHTSA, they more or less have to investigate once they get a certain number of complaints.

Go read my post again:

"I'm not saying these dont exist, nor am I saying PB doesnt exist. What I am saying is that if, as is claimed in this thread, PB is a massive and extreme problem, there should by now be a vast accumulation of clear, unequivocal evidence."

A bunch of people complaining isnt evidence (except evidence of a bunch of people complaining).