Phantom Braking

[FastEddieB]

How often do you slow down for something that ends up not being worth slowing down, per week, while manually driving?

We’ve had our Model 3 for a week.

Anyone equating phantom braking with “slowing down” has not experienced it.

‘Nuff said.

 

[2101Guy]

The cake may be a lie, but phantom braking is real. Happens to us in our car. Wife refuses to use cruise control because she finds the car's behavior terrifying under those conditions. Won't even consider enabling non-FSD autosteer. She has concluded it's better for her to control the car herself. I'm a little more willing to keep trying the features out, but I can't argue with her point of view.

several Tesla stans in this thread, will blame your wife....the customer. Will claim "its all in her mind" and that there is no such thing as PB because some guy allegedly used some device that didnt record 4g of gravity during PB, therefore, PB isnt a thing.

 

[VanGuy]

That's actually pretty discouraging. An automated factory is a MUCH simpler environment. Geofenced, in an area designed specifically for automation, with no human drivers, only "trained" pedestrians, no kids, dogs, deer, potholes, weather, shadows that move with the sun, or any of a hundred other variables. And it still took them 30 years? Yikes! I hope it doesn't take Tesla 30 years to get this right.

I work for a company that has a fleet of autonomous haul trucks carrying thousands of tonnes of aggregate per day. It's heavily geofenced, however, the vehicles operate autonomously and at a very high rate of production. It's a very controlled environment. But they are doing it as good or better than the humans were.

I have no clue how long it'll take FSD to work EVERYWHERE. And if that's your bar then well, have fun living in a fantasy world.

That said, FSD will definitely start working in some areas soon. And then as the depth of knowledge and edge-cases for each trouble area start getting worked out, it'll work in a wider range of situations/environments.

This is just absurd how everyone is looking at something as world-changing like autonomous vehicles and being just straight up "yes/no" on the topic.

 

[sleepydoc]

I work for a company that has a fleet of autonomous haul trucks carrying thousands of tonnes of aggregate per day. It's heavily geofenced, however, the vehicles operate autonomously and at a very high rate of production. It's a very controlled environment. But they are doing it as good or better than the humans were.

That’s key - they’ve standardized the environment and removed variability.

I have no clue how long it'll take FSD to work EVERYWHERE. And if that's your bar then well, have fun living in a fantasy world.

That said, FSD will definitely start working in some areas soon. And then as the depth of knowledge and edge-cases for each trouble area start getting worked out, it'll work in a wider range of situations/environments.

This is just absurd how everyone is looking at something as world-changing like autonomous vehicles and being just straight up "yes/no" on the topic.

For one, I think it’s hard to think of autonomous driving when the car can’t even keep a steady speed on an unobstructed road, but I think the “yes/no,” all or nothing view comes from statements and predictions Elon has made.

Speed issues aside, Autopilot actually works quite well on the freeways as long as the conditions. I’m not sure what the failure rate is but I’d be willing to guess it’s quite low. I think you’re right, it will be a gradual evolution - Just look at the evolution of FSD so far. I’m still wondering if Tesla‘s approach with no radar or lidar will succeed.

 

[2101Guy]

I work for a company that has a fleet of autonomous haul trucks carrying thousands of tonnes of aggregate per day. It's heavily geofenced, however, the vehicles operate autonomously and at a very high rate of production. It's a very controlled environment. But they are doing it as good or better than the humans were.

I have no clue how long it'll take FSD to work EVERYWHERE. And if that's your bar then well, have fun living in a fantasy world.

That said, FSD will definitely start working in some areas soon. And then as the depth of knowledge and edge-cases for each trouble area start getting worked out, it'll work in a wider range of situations/environments.

This is just absurd how everyone is looking at something as world-changing like autonomous vehicles and being just straight up "yes/no" on the topic.

I dont think its straight up "yes/no", but if the bar that has been set is "NYC to LA with zero human input by 2019", then that's setting an expectation to your customers that the technology on their cars today, will work in either all conditions or a geofenced area that covers the roads and conditions between NYC and LA, no?

 

[2101Guy]

And I agree that AP works VERY well on most open highways with minimal or no overpasses and no trees casting shadows. Like a wide open highway in the Nevada area, for example. I'd say it almost is perfect in that condition.

 

[Bouba]

A geofenced area might work just so they can say they developed it on schedule...but I think the only way it will work is by advancements in artificial intelligence and it will learn from the huge amount of data that gets sent to them. And when it works on American roads all we can hope for is that the computer is smart enough to drive in foreign countries. But I’ve been in plenty of places where humans can’t cross roads and nobody gives way ever or obeys any rules...good luck with that Tesla

 

[sleepydoc]

A geofenced area might work just so they can say they developed it on schedule...but I think the only way it will work is by advancements in artificial intelligence and it will learn from the huge amount of data that gets sent to them. And when it works on American roads all we can hope for is that the computer is smart enough to drive in foreign countries. But I’ve been in plenty of places where humans can’t cross roads and nobody gives way ever or obeys any rules...good luck with that Tesla

You mean Italy?

 

[Bouba]

You mean Italy?

I was thinking more 3rd world but Italy will do

 

[Bouba]

Anyhow, convoys are about to descend onto Paris, inspired by events in Canada. So I was thinking, rather than the ultimate goal being a robotaxis...why not just allow your car to go off and protest by itself

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

My issue with PB is that people erroneously claim it's unsafe. They're conflating a feeling of frustration with real danger.

.2g decel is not going to cause anyone driving in a safe and responsible manner to be even remotely at risk of hitting you.

Yea, it's gonna be annoying.

Drive shotgun with a new driver and tell me you're comfortable with their choices of when to accelerate/decelerate. Hell, tell me the last taxi/uber you took didn't make you mildly uncomfortable with a few decisions.

We don't know what percentage of the Tesla Vision PB is <.21g decel.

What we do know is on the poll there was 68 Tesla vision people who claimed the pb is very aggressive, and 30 Tesla vision people who claimed the pb does not feel aggressive. On the same poll the radar people were split 50/50 on whether it was aggressive.

On this poll I selected "I have a radar car and the phantom braking does not feel aggressive", and that was correct before FSD Beta.

With FSD Beta 10.3.1 I would have selected frightening
With FSD Beta 10.9 I would likely select does not feel aggressive.

It's really one of those things that depends on recent memory of it. When I answer a question like that I don't know what percentage of pb is aggressive versus non-aggressive.

It's also dependent on how a person drives.

For example lets say I'm about to pass a semi at differential of 5mph, and suddenly the car decides to slow because it incorrectly locks onto it. That slow down is likely not that remarkable aside form being annoying. But, lets say the speed differential is 10 or 15mph. That slow down is going to be a lot more aggressive.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Anyhow, convoys are about to descend onto Paris, inspired by events in Canada. So I was thinking, rather than the ultimate goal being a robotaxis...why not just allow your car to go off and protest by itself

It's a strange world when Canadians protest before the French.

But, yeah I would absolutely expect a French autonomous car to only work 75% of the time because the other 25% it's protesting.

 

[VanGuy]

That’s key - they’ve standardized the environment and removed variability.

For one, I think it’s hard to think of autonomous driving when the car can’t even keep a steady speed on an unobstructed road, but I think the “yes/no,” all or nothing view comes from statements and predictions Elon has made.

Speed issues aside, Autopilot actually works quite well on the freeways as long as the conditions. I’m not sure what the failure rate is but I’d be willing to guess it’s quite low. I think you’re right, it will be a gradual evolution - Just look at the evolution of FSD so far. I’m still wondering if Tesla‘s approach with no radar or lidar will succeed.

I disobey the manual most times I drive. I use AP all the time in the city. I pay attention and have my hands at the ready but it drives through intersections, tight spots, open road, dusk, dawn, night, rain...whatever. It's been effectively flawless. In my experience. I use it on the highways as well. 2 lane, lots of shadows. I do however see that it doesn't know the right speed. And the times I have felt it slow down "out of nowhere" is in fact not out of nowhere, it's because there's a discrepancy in the speed it's going and the detected speed of the road and it'll adjust faster than I would. And based on the way many people describe their "phantom braking", this is my personal take on what is happening. But every single time it has slowed down on me it's due to a speed limit mismatch.

If your car is engaging AEB, that's a wholly different story. But again, and as others have said here, that's a completely separate event, and if that were happening we'd be seeing COUNTLESS videos of it.

So I am not here disagreeing with the fact that people experience the car slowing down on them. I just don't think it's as mysterious as everyone is making it out to be. It's also not as much of a safety risk as people are blowing it up to be.

I'm prepared to eat my proverbial hat and if it starts happening and causing accidents or it's even just using the actual brakes for these types of events.

 

[VanGuy]

I dont think its straight up "yes/no", but if the bar that has been set is "NYC to LA with zero human input by 2019", then that's setting an expectation to your customers that the technology on their cars today, will work in either all conditions or a geofenced area that covers the roads and conditions between NYC and LA, no?

The funny part about that is that it's really not all that complicated to do intercity drives.

If you edit that to add a bit of detail...like include the neighborhood in LA and the Neighborhood in NYC, that could take on every part of the FSD difficulty spectrum.

The guy knows how to use his words and he knows when to speak in true absolutes vs "absolutes". And I am pretty sure a Tesla did drive cross country by itself, no? Might be misremembering, was maybe just AP or NOA?

I guess people can make whatever decision they want based on whatever details they want. But at no point in anything you actually sign for the car does it do anything but state very clearly where the lines are with the technology. If people are making critical life-safety decisions based on tweets, well...have fun drinking horse de-wormer or quitting your job role as a wage-slave via text and posting it for internet points.

 

[AndreP]

The funny part about that is that it's really not all that complicated to do intercity drives.

If you edit that to add a bit of detail...like include the neighborhood in LA and the Neighborhood in NYC, that could take on every part of the FSD difficulty spectrum.

The guy knows how to use his words and he knows when to speak in true absolutes vs "absolutes". And I am pretty sure a Tesla did drive cross country by itself, no? Might be misremembering, was maybe just AP or NOA?

I guess people can make whatever decision they want based on whatever details they want. But at no point in anything you actually sign for the car does it do anything but state very clearly where the lines are with the technology. If people are making critical life-safety decisions based on tweets, well...have fun drinking horse de-wormer or quitting your job role as a wage-slave via text and posting it for internet points.

Wait, you think a Tesla drove itself across the country?

How did it charge itself?

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Wait, you think a Tesla drove itself across the country?

How did it charge itself?

During its drive it traveled to the future where there are snake chargers, and then it traveled back to its original timeline.

Duh.

On a serious note I am kinda bummed that Tesla hasn't even introduced a snake charger pilot program. Some superchargers have a handicap spot where you're supposed to use it last. It would be cool if at least that spot had a snake charger.

Or maybe Tesla now plans on having a Tesla bot at a Supercharger location to watch over the spot, and to plug cars in.

 

[Jim1921]

I purchased a 2022 Model 3 in December. My driving, until today, has been mainly around town. Today I had a 170 mile trip, with 80 miles of the trip on a 2 lane highway. During the 80 mile stretch, I had 3 incidents with phantom breaking. Two of these occurred with AC and one with AP. During one incident, someone was tailgating me and almost collided with the back of the car when the emergency brakes kicked in. I won’t be using AC or AP on two lane roads until this is fixed.

 

[enemji]

Would you mind posting a video?

There’s a big difference between manufacturing and driving: variability. By definition, manufacturing strives for uniformity - uniform starting materials, uniform processes and uniform final products. This is where machines excel, doing the same process over and over.

Driving is often the antithesis of that. The weather changes, roads change, traffic changes, even the abilities of the car can change. The area of driving that has been most successfully automated - highway driving is the area with the least variability.

Comparing a manufacturing plant to driving completely misses a multitude of critical differences.

I totally agree with you, and that was the premise and learning that came about, about tolerances and deviations, what is to be acceptable and what is to be not. The human factory ran on the pride of making everything perfect, and to their personal satisfaction. The automated system did not and was not designed to be that but designed to be reliable and acceptable within the tolerances of the application the equipment and parts were designed for.
The autopilot is similar. Everytime I hear you (and others like you) express that the autopilot did something that you wouldn’t have in the same circumstances. That is also why I asked you if you ever had a chauffeur drivern car. For 25 years of my life, I was fortunate enough to have a personal chauffeur driven vehicle for my daily work. Did the chauffeur drive the way I would have? No. But then I learnt I am not there to sit and analyze his driving skills. I have that chauffeur drivern vehicle so that I can even make my commute more productive. As long as the chauffeur did not drive like a drunken driver and/or did not cause any accidents, I learnt to accept his driving and focus on my work.

I hope this perspective helps.

 

[dan031970]

I made this mistake when my Model 3 was new.

An experienced user here pointed out to me that the manual states AP is only to be used on interstates and highways...where all the traffic is going in the same direction and there are no cross streets.

Using AP on a road with opposing traffic and cross streets is dangerous.

You don't likely live in an area where 2 lane non-divided highways are the only available roads.
I am learning that purchasing my model Y was a mistake as it lacks a usable cruise control on 2 lane highways with on coming traffic. I have had my model Y for 2 weeks.

I have neighbor with a M3P built before the change to the vision system. He has no problem on the same roads I drive with the same daily commute that I have.

I have contacted Tesla service and they say my car is functioning normally and I should wait for a firmware update.

Right now I am leaning toward selling the car once I get the title in the mail. I otherwise love the car, but I paid a lot for a car that is lacking such a basic feature that has been commonplace since the 1980s.

 

[LastGas]

Try to google “Tesla phantom braking” and educate yourself.

Or you could just take your Tesla out on the road with FSD or FSD Beta enabled. Duh. The phenomenon is anything but rare.