Phantom Braking

[johnnycnote]

My son's new Tesla doesn't have FSD Beta and I've actually missed it the 3 or 4 times I've driven his car. For me, FSD Beta works more often than not. Is it perfect? Not by any means and it's def not ready for your average consumer, but it's capabilities impress me every time I get behind the wheel

 

[rjpjnk]

What I want is simple, dumb cruise control. Give me the option to skip the “enhancements.”

That would be useful but I doubt Tesla would ever allow it because it would be confusing to the driver to know whether or not he can expect the car to brake.

 

[johnnycnote]

That would be useful but I doubt Tesla would ever allow it because it would be confusing to the driver to know whether or not he can expect the car to brake.

Exit 161 here!

 

[SalisburySam]

That would be useful but I doubt Tesla would ever allow it because it would be confusing to the driver to know whether or not he can expect the car to brake.

I think it more likely to never be offered because it is anathema to the robotaxi mission/dream/fantasy/silliness. I think most drivers could handle the option just fine; even I can manage to drive both with and without FSD.

 

[Birillo]

I experience unexpected slowdowns when using TACC very frequently. Last month I put in a service request with Tesla. They asked for timestamps of the events so the next time I went on the highway I gave them 2 examples and the hour/minute they occurred. Once they had that they acknowledged that it was a problem, and that they are working on a solution that will be implemented via OTA update and that the new software is currently undergoing validation. They gave a timeline of end of October.

 

[Mark II]

I experience unexpected slowdowns when using TACC very frequently. Last month I put in a service request with Tesla. They asked for timestamps of the events so the next time I went on the highway I gave them 2 examples and the hour/minute they occurred. Once they had that they acknowledged that it was a problem, and that they are working on a solution that will be implemented via OTA update and that the new software is currently undergoing validation. They gave a timeline of end of October.

October of which year?

 

[sleepydoc]

I experience unexpected slowdowns when using TACC very frequently. Last month I put in a service request with Tesla. They asked for timestamps of the events so the next time I went on the highway I gave them 2 examples and the hour/minute they occurred. Once they had that they acknowledged that it was a problem, and that they are working on a solution that will be implemented via OTA update and that the new software is currently undergoing validation. They gave a timeline of end of October.

Odd that Tesla can admit they have a problem but many people here on TMC refuse to admit it!

 

[Knightshade]

Odd that Tesla can admit they have a problem but many people here on TMC refuse to admit it!

Tesla isn't "admitting" anything.... This isn't even Tesla, it's level 1 tech support.

"It'll be fixed in a later OTA" is what techs say to shut up customers when they can't find any problem to fix.

Occasional PB happens in every brand of car-- it's not a "problem" so much as an inherent known limitation. Which, again, every car maker in their manual tells you in the manual might happen

Remember when you told us Subaru said no such thing and I had to link you to the page in your own cars owners manual where they do?



Anyway same thing has been the standard in IT/tech for generations... "It'll be fixed later in a software patch"... "That'll be added later in new firmware".... The guy saying it has no info or insight into future updates, he's a level 1 tech support dude who wants you to go away, not the guy who writes software for Tesla.

 

[Dewg]

Odd that Tesla can admit they have a problem but many people here on TMC refuse to admit it!

Who's refusing? There may be a small handful of people that don't experience PBs, but the majority of people do experience PBs. It's the degree of PBs that's the issue. Some people complain of PBs and their videos show a drop of speed by a couple MPH. Others show what look like AEB events, with drops in the dozens of MPH. I personally still get occasional 1-3 MPH drops.

 

[Mark II]

Tesla isn't admitting anything.... "It'll be fixed in a later OTA" is what techs say to shut up customers when they can't find any problem.

Same thing has been the standard in IT/tech for generations... "It'll be fixed later in a software patch"... "That'll be added later in new firmware".... The guy saying it has no info or insight into future updates, he's a level 1 tech support dude who wants you to go away, not the guy who writes software for Tesla.

It helps if you read the whole paragraph instead of cherry picking the stuff that supports your argument. Personally I interpret "they acknowledged that it was a problem" as admission.

 

[Knightshade]

It helps if you read the whole paragraph instead of cherry picking the stuff that supports your argument. Personally I interpret "they acknowledged that it was a problem" as admission.

If you pretend "rando L1 tech at a service center" is "Tesla" sure.

That's not remotely a reasonable thing to pretend, but you do you.


If IT isn't your thing- ever been to a hotel and heard some Karen complaining about how poor the hot tea selection was at breakfast when checking out? Whatever min-wage desk clerk she's yelling at says 'Yes we are sorry for this thing that I TOTALLY AGREE IS A PROBLEM and I assure you it'll be addressed in the future!" and then forgets whatever she said the moment she leaves because he can't actually do anything about whatever it was.

Same thing here.

 

[drtimhill]

Who's refusing? There may be a small handful of people that don't experience PBs, but the majority of people do experience PBs. It's the degree of PBs that's the issue. Some people complain of PBs and their videos show a drop of speed by a couple MPH. Others show what look like AEB events, with drops in the dozens of MPH. I personally still get occasional 1-3 MPH drops.

First off, yes I agree that "PB" is an all-embracing fuzzy term for anything that involves the car slowing when the driver doesnt expect it too. My suspicion is that the few who see really major events assume that all the other posters here see the same severity, and conclude that its a huge problem.

However, I'm a bit concerned about "the majority of people do experience PBs". On what do you base this? Do you have access to an unbiased survey with a clear definition of PB and a decent random cross-section of Tesla drivers?

 

[sleepydoc]

First off, yes I agree that "PB" is an all-embracing fuzzy term for anything that involves the car slowing when the driver doesnt expect it too. My suspicion is that the few who see really major events assume that all the other posters here see the same severity, and conclude that its a huge problem.

However, I'm a bit concerned about "the majority of people do experience PBs". On what do you base this? Do you have access to an unbiased survey with a clear definition of PB and a decent random cross-section of Tesla drivers?

It’s difficult/impossible to say for sure and I dont’ know if such a survey exists but from the other Tesla drivers I’ve spoken to I feel comfortable saying ‘the majority.’ I’ve posted before about the wide variability that seems to exist in frequency and severity of PB events. Is that simply from people interpreting things differently or is it true variability? I think it’s probalby a bit of both.

 

[Dewg]

First off, yes I agree that "PB" is an all-embracing fuzzy term for anything that involves the car slowing when the driver doesnt expect it too. My suspicion is that the few who see really major events assume that all the other posters here see the same severity, and conclude that its a huge problem.

However, I'm a bit concerned about "the majority of people do experience PBs". On what do you base this? Do you have access to an unbiased survey with a clear definition of PB and a decent random cross-section of Tesla drivers?

Nearly every video I watch on YouTube, and I get recommended quite a few shows at least a little PB from time to time, some even more dramatic. Even the 0 intervention videos have a little PB'ing - sometimes they try to hide it with speed ups during their video, but I watch their speed during those and I see it drop a few MPH from time to time. Even if it's probable - such as the driver saying it could have been for a pedestrian on the sidewalk...

 

[drtimhill]

Nearly every video I watch on YouTube, and I get recommended quite a few shows at least a little PB from time to time, some even more dramatic. Even the 0 intervention videos have a little PB'ing - sometimes they try to hide it with speed ups during their video, but I watch their speed during those and I see it drop a few MPH from time to time. Even if it's probable - such as the driver saying it could have been for a pedestrian on the sidewalk...

So, your basic answer is "no", you dont know its a majority. I would hardly call ANY set of YouTube videos an unbiased sample. Most driving related videos YouTube randomly throws at me seem to be Russian drivers crashing. It would certainly be an error to assume "the majority of Russians are bad drivers" based on such flimsy evidence.

 

[Dewg]

So, your basic answer is "no", you dont know its a majority. I would hardly call ANY set of YouTube videos an unbiased sample. Most driving related videos YouTube randomly throws at me seem to be Russian drivers crashing. It would certainly be an error to assume "the majority of Russians are bad drivers" based on such flimsy evidence.

For a fact, no.

 

[drtimhill]

It’s difficult/impossible to say for sure and I dont’ know if such a survey exists but from the other Tesla drivers I’ve spoken to I feel comfortable saying ‘the majority.’ I’ve posted before about the wide variability that seems to exist in frequency and severity of PB events. Is that simply from people interpreting things differently or is it true variability? I think it’s probalby a bit of both.

You are certainly free to argue that PB may be a significant issue, or perhaps even a serious one, based on anecdotal evidence alone. But "majority" is a very different claim. What you are literally saying is that at least 50% of all Tesla drivers have significant serious PB events. And to Knightshades point, if that IS the case, do you not think there would be rampant well documented issues of crashes? We're talking several hundred thousand drivers now, if this is truly a "majority" problem.

A week or so ago I asked in this thread for someone to point to some video evidence on YouTube. Apart from the usual "there is LOTS of it, just go search for yourself" deflection, all we have so far is (a) a car spinning out of lane on a very wet highway, with no audio or screen views to even indicate it was a PB event at all, and (b) a car on the freeway with AP engaged slowing from 65 to 61mph. To me, that's not exactly convincing evidence for a "majority" of people having "dangerous" PB events.

As I have said before, I'm not saying PB isnt a thing, but so far I dont see any actual statistically significant evidence that it aligns with some of the more dramatic claims of "deadly", "frequently" and "frightening" that have been made here and in other related threads.

I believe you mentioned you are in the medical field, and we have both recently seen what can happen when hysteria and bias (and worse) take the place of unbiased evidence-based rational thinking. Covid caused by cell-phone towers! Worming medicine for horses a miracle cure! Masks? Fake News!!! Let's not go down THAT path again.

 

[CyberGus]

I've watched hours of FSDb videos (DirtyTesla et al) and haven't noticed any PB events (although there's plenty of other shenanigans, lol). I chalk it up to the beta stack, and that the driving is on city streets with endless non-phantom obstacles.

 

[Dewg]

I've watched hours of FSDb videos (DirtyTesla et al) and haven't noticed any PB events (although there's plenty of other shenanigans, lol). I chalk it up to the beta stack, and that the driving is on city streets with endless non-phantom obstacles.

I'd say let's agree that PB is an unexpected braking event that drops the speed by at least a third in a short period of time. However, few here would agree with that. Even a drop of 2 MPH is classified by many as a PB, and unacceptable.

 

[CyberGus]

I'd say let's agree that PB is an unexpected braking event that drops the speed by at least a third in a short period of time. However, few here would agree with that. Even a drop of 2 MPH is classified by many as a PB, and unacceptable.

If a drop of 2 MPH is the biggest worry, then may I recommend the video tutorial "How To Survive First-World Problems in Three Easy Steps"