Plaid 21” rear tire woes - factory defect?

[TSLA Pilot]

Wait, wait, wait, I think the lights are coming on

Well, not really as my position is unchanged—I still hold Michelin’s tire design and construction as the Probable Cause here. Especially as there is near zero Pirelli OEM tire failure rate on the MS Plaid….

Tesla, however, sends a BIG check to Michelin every month—Tesla has influence and the average owner has none, besides a NHTSA defect input.

We should have been on a reinforced “T03” version of this tire over a year ago, and the T02 should be recalled, yet here we are….

 

[Kohley]

And yet NONE of this should be the concern of Tesla owners.

Chronic Michelin 21” tire delamination is a safety defect that Tesla and Michelin must get serious about, now.

Waiting until there are tire-failure induced accidents is simply insane.

Maybe all the negative camber in back keeps the car planted better around the corner, avoiding accidents? This could be a much safer strategy by Tesla with 1,000 HP car. The drawback is obviously faster tire wear. On any performance car, tire wear tends to be an issue much quicker, it has to be watched closely by the owner. IMHO, this isn't a Michelin issue.

I don't agree with the amount of camber from the factory or the toe out in back, I think it is way too much. I am just saying there might be other reasons Tesla sets the car up this way, it might be safer, and maybe faster lap times is important too from a sales perspective.

 

[bkcyk]

Maybe all the negative camber in back keeps the car planted better around the corner, avoiding accidents? This could be a much safer strategy by Tesla with 1,000 HP car. The drawback is obviously faster tire wear. On any performance car, tire wear tends to be an issue much quicker, it has to be watched closely by the owner. IMHO, this isn't a Michelin issue.

I don't agree with the amount of camber from the factory or the toe out in back, I think it is way too much. I am just saying there might be other reasons Tesla sets the car up this way, it might be safer, and maybe faster lap times is important too from a sales perspective.

Many cars come from the factory with alignment specs out of spec (e.g. transport caused), but have max perf tires that last a reasonable amount of miles. What is reasonable to me? 20K out of OEM PS4Ss. As a point of reference, I regularly net 20-25K miles on my other rides as I'm a huge fan of PS4Ss.

The crux of the problem for 2021+ Model S owners is the fact that Tesla's alignment spec range is so flippin' broad. We're talking -.75 to -2.75 rear camber... at MEDIUM height. When driving on low, those values go deeper into preposterous territory. Running an air suspension on a 1000+ hp vehicle exacerbates the problem since suspension height and resulting alignment values are always dynamically changing. This is a Tesla issue, not a Michelin issue.

So going back in circles here since some of y'all stubbornly remain obtuse, there is a pathway to solving the problem via the aftermarket. How you choose to address the problem is your decision alone.

 

[AAKEE]

Many cars come from the factory with alignment specs out of spec (e.g. transport caused), but have max perf tires that last a reasonable amount of miles. What is reasonable to me? 20K out of OEM PS4Ss. As a point of reference, I regularly net 20-25K miles on my other rides as I'm a huge fan of PS4Ss.

The crux of the problem for 2021+ Model S owners is the fact that Tesla's alignment spec range is so flippin' broad. We're talking -.75 to -2.75 rear camber... at MEDIUM height. When driving on low, those values go deeper into preposterous territory. Running an air suspension on a 1000+ hp vehicle exacerbates the problem since suspension height and resulting alignment values are always dynamically changing. This is a Tesla issue, not a Michelin issue.

Yes. As it seems, the out of spec toe on the S come from:
-Tesla throwing cars together, in a hurry.
-Teslas setting is in medium, but all highway driving is in low.

To make it worse Teslas specified values are very wide.

From the common knowledge of wheel alignment for racing etc. we know that high negative camber makes for good cornering.
Also, a suspension built to increase the negative camber will fold the wheel inside the wheel well/fender when the wheel goes up in bumps etc.
We also know the effects of toe in and out.
A way to cope with negative camber is to make sure the toe in is high enough to comenpsate for the high negatibe camber.

So going back in circles here since some of y'all stubbornly remain obtuse, there is a pathway to solving the problem via the aftermarket. How you choose to address the problem is your decision alone.

I decided not to initially change any parts as the front half shaft vibration might call for eventually change these, and if Tesla has any issues with the changed parts, the 300 km single drive to the nearest SC will mean hard work for me. (Already driven it five times within one year with my MSP and going therem xt tuesday again. So far I have killed 5 days of my life driving back and forth to the SC).
If needed, I will go for the n2itive.me links + lowering kit.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

Maybe all the negative camber in back keeps the car planted better around the corner, avoiding accidents? This could be a much safer strategy by Tesla with 1,000 HP car. The drawback is obviously faster tire wear. On any performance car, tire wear tends to be an issue much quicker, it has to be watched closely by the owner. IMHO, this isn't a Michelin issue.

I don't agree with the amount of camber from the factory or the toe out in back, I think it is way too much. I am just saying there might be other reasons Tesla sets the car up this way, it might be safer, and maybe faster lap times is important too from a sales perspective.

For the 87th time, THIS IS NOT A WEAR ISSUE!

Failed 21” OEM Michelin tires have PLENTY of tread left with even wear across the entire width of the tire.

The sidewall and tread come apart at the inner sidewall, an area that is nearly impossible to inspect.

Let’s stop blaming the customer please….

 

[bkcyk]

I decided not to initially change any parts as the front half shaft vibration might call for eventually change these, and if Tesla has any issues with the changed parts, the 300 km single drive to the nearest SC will mean hard work for me. (Already driven it five times within one year with my MSP and going therem xt tuesday again. So far I have killed 5 days of my life driving back and forth to the SC).
If needed, I will go for the n2itive.me links + lowering kit.

I strongly prefer to not modify my MSP because I don't want to deal with bush league Tesla Service Centers.

I installed the N2itive rear camber arms because swapping out $1300 tires every 5-7K miles is a nonstarter for me.

My MSP is my first and last Tesla because of the Tesla Service Center experience. Otherwise, my MSP has been the perfect daily driver in Los Angeles. It's an awesome ride.

Gl dude!

 

[TSLA Pilot]

Many cars come from the factory with alignment specs out of spec (e.g. transport caused), but have max perf tires that last a reasonable amount of miles. What is reasonable to me? 20K out of OEM PS4Ss. As a point of reference, I regularly net 20-25K miles on my other rides as I'm a huge fan of PS4Ss.

The crux of the problem for 2021+ Model S owners is the fact that Tesla's alignment spec range is so flippin' broad. We're talking -.75 to -2.75 rear camber... at MEDIUM height. When driving on low, those values go deeper into preposterous territory. Running an air suspension on a 1000+ hp vehicle exacerbates the problem since suspension height and resulting alignment values are always dynamically changing. This is a Tesla issue, not a Michelin issue.

So going back in circles here since some of y'all stubbornly remain obtuse, there is a pathway to solving the problem via the aftermarket. How you choose to address the problem is your decision alone.

Yes, of course it’s a “Tesla issue.”

That’s why it happens to all of the tires, except for the OTHER OEM TIRE (Pirelli) where we have a near-zero failure rate and yet we’re closing in on 100 friggin’ pages of OEM Michelin tire delaminations….

Odd, no?

 

[AAKEE]

I strongly prefer to not modify my MSP because I don't want to deal with bush league Tesla Service Centers.

I installed the N2itive rear camber arms because swapping out $1300 tires every 5-7K miles is a nonstarter for me.

My MSP is my first and last Tesla because of the Tesla Service Center experience. Otherwise, my MSP has been the perfect daily driver in Los Angeles. It's an awesome ride.

Gl dude!

My Alignment sucked from the delivery.

After alignment only, there is no issue.
I also know a few other MSP / 21” which seems to run without any rear tyre issues.
As no issue - no alignment data, but Im sure they got the cars with the needed toe in which compensates for the negative camber.

My M3P 2021, which I lowrred with H&R springs had similar negative camber (slightly more than 1.5 degrees).

Using a good setting with descebt toe in, there was no bad things happening to either the stock p Zero elect nor the PS4S (245/35-20) that I used adter the stock set was worn out.
Of course there was a slight higher wear on the inner side but the distribution of the difference was even over the tyre with and the tyres did hold up quite well.

 

[Kohley]

For the 87th time, THIS IS NOT A WEAR ISSUE!

Failed 21” OEM Michelin tires have PLENTY of tread left with even wear across the entire width of the tire.

The sidewall and tread come apart at the inner sidewall, an area that is nearly impossible to inspect.

Let’s stop blaming the customer please….

I'll spare you chapter, song and verse on this topic, this isn't a tire issue, and its not impossible to inspect. Who is blaming the customer? 1,000 HP cars with 21 inch tires and the lap times they cut with non race track brakes, present challenges for the manufacturer and the driver. Its not a Chevy Malibu. Like I said above, I think Tesla maybe was ok with tire wear to make the car safer at the limit by having a ton of negative camber, that might have saved lives already.

 

[Sam1]

For the 87th time, THIS IS NOT A WEAR ISSUE!

Failed 21” OEM Michelin tires have PLENTY of tread left with even wear across the entire width of the tire.

The sidewall and tread come apart at the inner sidewall, an area that is nearly impossible to inspect.

Let’s stop blaming the customer please….

Sure it is a wear issue.

for the 84th time, have you been able to find that singular case of someone who installed an aftermarket solution and had a proper alignment experiencing the same problem? I literally just want to see one.

Not a single person here is blaming owners, it's obviously the fault of tesla for both a bad alignment and the lack of ability to adjust the configuration.

 

[Decibelle]

Sure it is a wear issue.

for the 84th time, have you been able to find that singular case of someone who installed an aftermarket solution and had a proper alignment experiencing the same problem? I literally just want to see one.

Not a single person here is blaming owners, it's obviously the fault of tesla for both a bad alignment and the lack of ability to adjust the configuration.

What would you suggest I ask the alignment shop to set the rear Toe at on my 2015 to help minimize the wear on the inner sidewall (which was the reason I bought new tires)? I just bought a new set of rear tires and I don't have adjustable camber arms. I have 265/35R21 in the back.

 

[Sam1]

What would you suggest I ask the alignment shop to set the rear Toe at on my 2015 to help minimize the wear on the inner sidewall (which was the reason I bought new tires)? I just bought a new set of rear tires and I don't have adjustable camber arms. I have 265/35R21 in the back.

I'm not familiar with those setups, but would just stay on the upper end of whatever the recommended positive toe levels are for that model.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

So many here post that all that's needed is some 3rd party aftermarket suspension parts to cure this issue.

On what planet is it acceptable to be selling cars with tires that literally come apart, this on a 1,020 hp car, and that to supposedly prevent this, one must buy aftermarket parts (which then invalidate suspension warranty)?

This whole situation is patently absurd and Michelin AND Tesla need to fix it before someone gets hurt.

Since there have been next to zero failures of the OEM Pirelli tire, I'd suggest starting with a recall of the Michelin 21" OEM tire and then move up from there.

 

[Cobra281]

So I am taking delivery of a 2023 MS Plaid with Arachnids in a week or so. It currently has 13 miles on it.

My first stop should be an alignment shop? Any recommended ones in the SE Houston area?

 

[Sam1]

So many here post that all that's needed is some 3rd party aftermarket suspension parts to cure this issue.

On what planet is it acceptable to be selling cars with tires that literally come apart, this on a 1,020 hp car, and that to supposedly prevent this, one must buy aftermarket parts (which then invalidate suspension warranty)?

This whole situation is patently absurd and Michelin AND Tesla need to fix it before someone gets hurt.

Since there have been next to zero failures of the OEM Pirelli tire, I'd suggest starting with a recall of the Michelin 21" OEM tire and then move up from there.

Now the realization is slowly starting to creep into your completely misdirected anger. We just need to work on massaging out the rest of those nonsensical correlations you have.

What are the specifications of the OEM Pirelli tire that you speak of? Are they identical to the OEM Michelin tire, or is it a completely different product for different sized wheels, with a different profile, with a different sidewall height with less stiffness, and a different width?

 

[Sam1]

So I am taking delivery of a 2023 MS Plaid with Arachnids in a week or so. It currently has 13 miles on it.

My first stop should be an alignment shop? Any recommended ones in the SE Houston area?

Personal opinion is yes. Second suggestion is any race/performance shop in the area that has experience with Teslas. Not because Teslas are different, but because they may already be familiar with this specific issue.

Houston has a massive racing scene, you should be able to find a handful of good shops at a minimum.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

Now the realization is slowly starting to creep into your completely misdirected anger. We just need to work on massaging out the rest of those nonsensical correlations you have.

What are the specifications of the OEM Pirelli tire that you speak of? Are they identical to the OEM Michelin tire, or is it a completely different product for different sized wheels, with a different profile, with a different sidewall height with less stiffness, and a different width?

I’d posit that the requirement “tire should not come apart internally” is likely a specification for all MS OEM tires?

One OEM tire used on the MS (Pirelli) seems to meet that requirement quite handily.

The other (Michelin) has a thread closing in on 100 pages, with a LOT of photographs of tires with even wear across the entire tread face, but delamination on the inner sidewall tread junction….

 

[Sam1]

I’d posit that the requirement “tire should not come apart internally” is likely a specification for all MS OEM tires?

One OEM tire used on the MS (Pirelli) seems to meet that requirement quite handily.

The other (Michelin) has a thread closing in on 100 pages, with a LOT of photographs of tires with even wear across the entire tread face, but delamination on the inner sidewall tread junction….

You keep talking around everything everyone says that suggests your hypothesis may be wrong.

Why won't you just answer the questions directly?

Can you find a single instance of someone that has installed aftermarket solutions and had a proper alignment still having the same issue with OEM PS4S tires?

Are the OEM pirelli you continue to mention, the same exact size and specifications as the Michelin tires you're accusing of being faulty?

Have there been other brands and sizes of tires on different Teslas and different year models of the S, posted in this thread showing similar excess wear as the ones you continue to harp over?

 

[ohmman]

Moderator Note: Some posts moved away to Snippiness 2.0. Reminder that ad hominem attacks are not permitted at TMC since they do absolutely nothing to promote constructive conversation.

Some posts were moved away as part of a chain of responses to a snippy post, and were not snippy themselves. Apologies in advance to the authors of those posts - if there is anything you would like to repost in this thread, you can find text at the link to copy and paste.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

You keep talking around everything everyone says that suggests your hypothesis may be wrong.

Why won't you just answer the questions directly?

Can you find a single instance of someone that has installed aftermarket solutions and had a proper alignment still having the same issue with OEM PS4S tires?

Are the OEM pirelli you continue to mention, the same exact size and specifications as the Michelin tires you're accusing of being faulty?

Have there been other brands and sizes of tires on different Teslas and different year models of the S, posted in this thread showing similar excess wear as the ones you continue to harp over?

Sam1, you seem to have lost the point here.

The Pirelli tires appear to have a near-zero failure rate while mounted on exactly the same suspension.

The Michelins fail often, and at very low miles.

Point fingers wherever you’d like, but at the end of the day someone is going to get hurt unless Michelin and Tesla get to the bottom of this problem stat….