Plaid 21” rear tire woes - factory defect?

[Russell]

Again while I hate to come out of pocket, I did because I like the look of 21” wheels.

If you frequent the Model S Facebook groups you will also see people with other size wheels/tires having camber related wear. Though I have to admit the 21” tires seem to have the most complaints.

The sidewall delaminating does appear to be Michelin specific. Unfortunately the Michelins as of now are the best “performance” tire in the 21” sizes we need. I guess we could switch to Falkins but would be giving up quite a bit of dry and wet performance.

Regardless, after adding the rear adjustable camber arms it’s nice to now have complete control over the rear suspension setting no matter what wheel and tire package I choose. No matter how much I want to lower or not. And to be able to specify proper alignment settings for the ride height I primarily (forced or otherwise) drive in.

Negative Camber wear is one thing. The delaminating sidewall issue it totally another. It’s potentially a fatal result waiting to happen.

Get the camber arms and you can stop worrying about tread separation. With better alignment you will get better traction too.

 

[Awiner]

Get the camber arms and you can stop worrying about tread separation. With better alignment you will get better traction too.

Installed then a couple weeks ago. Really happy with the stability and handling as well.

 

[MFrunkerOG]

Of course they delaminate when you wear down the sidewall where all of the laminations are fused. Rub the end of a kit kat bar on the ground until the end wears off, and then be surprised when you see all the layers.

Great explanation Einstein
But that’s not what I’m saying!
What I’m saying is that the 2 other 21” owners I know who don’t have any delaminating issues on their stock 2021/2022 S cars have tires with a DOT plant code of 4M - that’s the Greenville, SC plant.

 

[Sam1]

Great explanation Einstein
But that’s not what I’m saying!
What I’m saying is that the 2 other 21” owners I know who don’t have any delaminating issues on their stock 2021/2022 S cars have tires with a DOT plant code of 4M - that’s the Greenville, SC plant.

Not sure why people are trying so hard to blame anything beyond the easiest and most probable cause.

As long as it's anyone's fault but Tesla's I suppose...

 

[MFrunkerOG]

Not sure why people are trying so hard to blame anything beyond the easiest and most probable cause.

As long as it's anyone's fault but Tesla's I suppose...

Yes! It’s never Tesla’s fault! I am proof of that. I replace every part I can before they can make their mistake .

It’s not their fault because I didn’t let them make that mistake!

 

[Russell]

Great explanation Einstein
But that’s not what I’m saying!
What I’m saying is that the 2 other 21” owners I know who don’t have any delaminating issues on their stock 2021/2022 S cars have tires with a DOT plant code of 4M - that’s the Greenville, SC plant.

What is their camber and toe set to?

 

[n2mb_racing]

Great explanation Einstein
But that’s not what I’m saying!
What I’m saying is that the 2 other 21” owners I know who don’t have any delaminating issues on their stock 2021/2022 S cars have tires with a DOT plant code of 4M - that’s the Greenville, SC plant.

I have revision T1 tires with plant code 4M. They have not delaminated (yet) with 10k miles on them. I do have a slow leak.

We could review the pictures in this thread to check the plant code.

 

[n2mb_racing]

Another Happy Plaid owner. 10K miles and the rear driver side is gone.

Here's a failed tire with plant code 4M.

 

[Sam1]

I have revision T1 tires with plant code 4M. They have not delaminated (yet) with 10k miles on them. I do have a slow leak.

We could review the pictures in this thread to check the plant code.

This entire witch hunt on "plant codes" is a futile effort.

The plants are tooled and set up to mass produce specific tire designs. They're not going to be manufacturing 11 ps4s tires in Wisconsin, 27 ps4s tires in New York, 47 ps4s tires in Oregon, etc. That would be one of the most financially ridiculous things a company could do. They will mass produce certain tires and/or certain sizes almost exclusively at one plant.

Without knowing where every location is that produces the ps4s & if those are tesla spec or open market or another oem design, it will do absolutely nothing to look at a manufacturing code and believe that a conclusion can be drawn from this half-data born from confirmation bias.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

Rear tire replacement update.

I am pleased to report that our rear OEM "T2" rear 21" Michelins were finally replaced, at Michelin's expense (Thank you Michelin) so it appears that they are taking far more interest in this matter of late.

A very careful "dunk tank" inspection (far better than the first one some months ago) revealed very tiny pinhole leaks on the inner sidewalls, on both tires, accounting for our 2 to 3 psi/week loss in air pressure. They were completely invisible to the naked eye, of course. (Note: another major difference with this "dunk tank" test was that this time the shop inflated the tires up to 50+ psi, something the first shop didn't bother with.)

My speculation is that with the Plaid's single motor for each rear wheel, the torque forces can be so great that the rear tires suffer microscopic internal tears with each heavy acceleration, which eventually results in tread separation or failure, which is sometimes, but not always, precipitated by a slow air pressure loss.

Important Note: Do NOT rely on loss of air pressure as an indicator of impending tire failure. Some here have had their tire tread come apart with NO pressure loss in advance.

That said, we did have the chronic pressure loss issue prior to any actual tread separation on either rear tire. Contributing to the non-delamination was not driving the car as much, and trying to drive gently (that's hard with a Plaid!) given the "ticking time bomb" nature of the Michelin 21" tire. It's been a number of months waiting for replacement tires--something to do with the nationwide backorder . . . .

In closing, please keep calling Michelin and filing claims--that will help keep the spotlight on this, hopefully leading to a recall, and a redesigned 21" tire for the Tesla MS OEM application, which is, apparently, presenting a far greater engineering demand than Michelin anticipated.

For us, Michelin stood up and provided really good warranty support, and that's something that's good to see. Michelin accepts claims at 866-866-6605 and here:

Contact us form

Enjoy peace of mind throughout the life of your tires when you shop car tires, truck tires & SUV tires online with Michelin today! Find a location!

www.michelinman.com

p.s. For reference, we, friends, and family, also have the Tesla OEM Pirelli 19" tires on several Palladium MS's, none with any pressure leakage, peculiar wear, or anything other than perfectly normal tire experiences.

 

[sonofagunn]

I'm not sure if this is helpful or not, but on my 2014 P85+ (with air suspension and large rear drive unit, 21" wheels), I had some Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires fail in the same manner (*not* Tesla OEM, but the Super Sports). The tread was worn down better across the tire than many of the other pics in this thread but it still seems like premature failure. I can't find the receipt but I've had these tires for approximately 2 years and 15,000 - 20,000 miles I think. I've only owned the car about 4 years and this is the second time I've had the rear tires fail in the same manner (first time was Tesla OEM Michelin Pilot Sports). Recently, the front tires failed in the same manner as well. They were also Tesla OEM Michelin Pilot Sports.

Having said that, I've had cars for 30+ years, currently have a 4 car family, and the only 3 times in my life that I've had tires fail in this manner have been the 3 times I've replaced tires on this Model S since I bought it used a few years ago. Every other time I've replaced tires, including on some sporty cars (and an infamous Ford Exploder/Rollover SUV) have had tires wear down evenly until they were visibly at the end of their tread life or catastrophically blown out by nails/debris/curbs.

I'm trying Falken Azenis FK510s now. We'll see if they fail the same way.

 

[Russell]

I'm not sure if this is helpful or not, but on my 2014 P85+ (with air suspension and large rear drive unit, 21" wheels), I had some Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires fail in the same manner (*not* Tesla OEM, but the Super Sports). The tread was worn down better across the tire than many of the other pics in this thread but it still seems like premature failure. I can't find the receipt but I've had these tires for approximately 2 years and 15,000 - 20,000 miles I think. I've only owned the car about 4 years and this is the second time I've had the rear tires fail in the same manner (first time was Tesla OEM Michelin Pilot Sports). Recently, the front tires failed in the same manner as well. They were also Tesla OEM Michelin Pilot Sports.
View attachment 908060
Having said that, I've had cars for 30+ years, currently have a 4 car family, and the only 3 times in my life that I've had tires fail in this manner have been the 3 times I've replaced tires on this Model S since I bought it used a few years ago. Every other time I've replaced tires, including on some sporty cars (and an infamous Ford Exploder/Rollover SUV) have had tires wear down evenly until they were visibly at the end of their tread life or catastrophically blown out by nails/debris/curbs.

I'm trying Falken Azenis FK510s now. We'll see if they fail the same way.

When was the last time you took your car in for an alignment? Can you post the printout?

 

[Russell]

<snip>

A very careful "dunk tank" inspection (far better than the first one some months ago) revealed very tiny pinhole leaks on the inner sidewalls, on both tires, accounting for our 2 to 3 psi/week loss in air pressure. They were completely invisible to the naked eye, of course. (Note: another major difference with this "dunk tank" test was that this time the shop inflated the tires up to 50+ psi, something the first shop didn't bother with.)

I called it 2 weeks ago.

I suspect the belts are separating from the rubber which is causing tiny perforations allowing the air to get out.

 

[Awiner]

I'm trying Falken Azenis FK510s now. We'll see if they fail the same way.

Please report back. I have talked to a couple that tired the Falkin on their Model S and they were not impressed. Wet performance they report was not good and dry performance lacked compared to the Michelin.

 

[Hapkomah67]

When you get your alignment done, post the before & after numbers.

I did my aligment after changing the tires. Numbers were with Tesla Specs before the aligment.

 

[Sam1]

I did my aligment after changing the tires. Numbers were with Tesla Specs before the aligment.

Why didn't they adjust the toe to even it out? Also guessing it was your driver's rear wearing out fast?

 

[Hapkomah67]

Why didn't they adjust the toe to even it out? Also guessing it was your driver's rear wearing out fast?

They said it is within the tesla spec.

 

[Sam1]

They said it is within the tesla spec.

Just because it's "within spec" doesn't mean they shouldn't spend 5 minutes adjusting it to be equal. A good shop will always try to get them close.

 

[mcvaughan]

Camber arms and lowering links going on as we speak. Will report back.

 

[Awiner]

They said it is within the tesla spec.

So close to the threshold of 0.00 that upon acceleration you likely will have a toe out (negative toe) condition. A 0.15 to 0.25 spec is recommend. Tesla specs are so wide it’s crazy.

Are you stock suspension? What height was this analyzed in?