Plaid 21” rear tire woes - factory defect?

[Sam1]

This guy is running the T0 spec winters with stock suspension and no abnormal wear. He's made a few posts through the thread Plaid 21” rear tire woes - factory defect?.

And I cannot find a single instance of the T0 spec Goodyear All-seasons failing either.

I have plenty of experience. I know tire wear patterns. This is not normal. If you had a fraction of the experience as you claim, you would realize that camber wear tends to manifest differently -- gradual shoulder wear until the tread is worn down. Not perfectly even wear until the tread separates. You would also realize that poor alignment manifests on *all* tires, not just low profile tires.

That's a photo of a single tire at 4,000 miles per the details. No one (that I have seen) is seeing tire failure at 4,000 miles. It's usually 10,000 miles +/-. I'm well aware of hayseed's post and knew there were none in this thread that show the same mileage on the same car showing the wear on the same side. I can post a photo of Goodyears, PS4S, and Pirelli, all on the OEM 21" wheels on my plaid at different mileages, and pre/post alignments or other suspension changes and make random assertions from them at different stages of use. Secondly, you have to take into consideration the conditions that the tires are driven in, is winter time more wet than summer when he's driving? Because damp roads will let the tire slide with less friction, causing less wear.

I'm surprised someone claiming to have a doctorate degree is using both confirmation bias broad generalities as basis and validation of an opinion.

 

[Sam1]

Not sure how you would expect me to know that when I'm just giving you representative samples (the bottom one being an actual Model S with the T0 PS4S I believe). We do know that many model S have the failure pattern in the lower pic, while pretty much every other car with bad camber has a failure pattern more similar to the top pic.

Now if your contention is that the issue is more dynamic alignment changes under power (which still would not explain the 19s not showing the issue), then the proper fix would be replacing whichever bushing is causing a problem with a ball joint or something along those lines, rather than compromise the static alignment in an effort to keep things where you want them under power.



I have no doubt that many Model S' come with a poor alignment from the factory. I just have a doubt that it's only the 21" models or that the same alignment can cause catastrophic failures on the Michelins but have pretty much normal wear on everything else.

Now googling around a bit, it does seem like inner wear is actually a bit more widespread on the PS4S (even non-Tesla) than I expected. So perhaps it's just a weakness of the tire and the weight + power + alignment are exacerbating it.

This is an i4

View attachment 1001892


Mustang
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911 Carrera T
View attachment 1001894

There are other examples out there

I'm not even going to reply to this with a slew of [insert whatever brand here] tires that have failed due to improper alignments, because we don't have the information from any of the images that would allow us to draw a reasonable conclusion and there are thousands upon thousands of images to sort through showing failures.

 

[Hayseed_MS]

I forgot what the original question was... Do not really care which side this information ends up on - just stating my experience. But since I was dragged back into this dumpster fire, here is my experience.

Those were my winter tires. Taken off last spring with a total of approx. 10k miles on them. Wear is even across tread. If I remember correctly, tread is at 6/32 all around. I will see if I can take pics but they are in a closet at my office. Put the GY T marked A/S on for this winter. Driven in all climates (90F to -5F) mostly dry, clear highways but some snow covered roads. They had a good run around. Loved them - if not so squishy in warmth, I would run all year round regardless of fast wear.

Currently running GY. Have approx. 10k on the GY tires. Even Wear across tread. When they were mounted, alignment was set to L-Camber -1.6, L-Toe 0.19, R-Camber -1.9, R-Toe 0.19. If I remember correctly last alignment was close to this as well. Tesla always does this alignment for me.

Have 99k miles on the car so have used several of the PS4S. Most lost to road debris. Wear on all sets was even across.

Ran 20" square for a bit. Same experience. Will not run the 19's.

I am not experiencing this inner wear to any extent but I would also gamble that I am not driving in the same way as people like @Sam1 so I am probably more of an anecdote than evidence.

 

[Sam1]

I forgot what the original question was... Do not really care which side this information ends up on - just stating my experience. But since I was dragged back into this dumpster fire, here is my experience.

Those were my winter tires. Taken off last spring with a total of approx. 10k miles on them. Wear is even across tread. If I remember correctly, tread is at 6/32 all around. I will see if I can take pics but they are in a closet at my office. Put the GY T marked A/S on for this winter. Driven in all climates (90F to -5F) mostly dry, clear highways but some snow covered roads. They had a good run around. Loved them - if not so squishy in warmth, I would run all year round regardless of fast wear.

Currently running GY. Have approx. 10k on the GY tires. Even Wear across tread. When they were mounted, alignment was set to L-Camber -1.6, L-Toe 0.19, R-Camber -1.9, R-Toe 0.19. If I remember correctly last alignment was close to this as well. Tesla always does this alignment for me.

Have 99k miles on the car so have used several of the PS4S. Most lost to road debris. Wear on all sets was even across.

Ran 20" square for a bit. Same experience. Will not run the 19's.

I am not experiencing this inner wear to any extent but I would also gamble that I am not driving in the same way as people like @Sam1 so I am probably more of an anecdote than evidence.

Thanks for the follow up!

 

[terranx]

I'm not even going to reply to this with a slew of [insert whatever brand here] tires that have failed due to improper alignments, because we don't have the information from any of the images that would allow us to draw a reasonable conclusion and there are thousands upon thousands of images to sort through showing failures.

Those are all PS4S with verfied proper alignments in those respective threads

 

[terranx]

That's a photo of a single tire at 4,000 miles per the details. No one (that I have seen) is seeing tire failure at 4,000 miles. It's usually 10,000 miles +/-. I'm well aware of hayseed's post and knew there were none in this thread that show the same mileage on the same car showing the wear on the same side. I can post a photo of Goodyears, PS4S, and Pirelli, all on the OEM 21" wheels on my plaid at different mileages, and pre/post alignments or other suspension changes and make random assertions from them at different stages of use. Secondly, you have to take into consideration the conditions that the tires are driven in, is winter time more wet than summer when he's driving? Because damp roads will let the tire slide with less friction, causing less wear.

So you agree that it's only the Michelins showing the wear on the inner edge?

I'm surprised someone claiming to have a doctorate degree is using both confirmation bias broad generalities as basis and validation of an opinion.

Confrimation bias would be me agreeing with you because you had some alignments done and believe that is 100% proof that that is the only problem present. When evaluating the available evidence, there isn't enough to reach any sort of conclusion. I remain unconvinced that the problem is purely alignment and that there isn't some sort of defect with the Michelins.

Show me 1 single example of a factory Model S with any other tires failing in the same manner. Just one.

 

[Sam1]

So you agree that it's only the Michelins showing the wear on the inner edge?



Confrimation bias would be me agreeing with you because you had some alignments done and believe that is 100% proof that that is the only problem present. When evaluating the available evidence, there isn't enough to reach any sort of conclusion. I remain unconvinced that the problem is purely alignment and that there isn't some sort of defect with the Michelins.

Show me 1 single example of a factory Model S with any other tires failing in the same manner. Just one.

On hayseed's post we have information, and that's a single instance, so I could be wrong there

As for the rest, I'm not engaging, because you are more focused on winning a debate that having correct information.

I should've stayed punched out from the conversation when I said I would because this discussion has produced absolutely nothing beneficial. You're right, everyone else is wrong, and I hope you have a great holiday!

 

[terranx]

On hayseed's post we have information, and that's a single instance, so I could be wrong there

As for the rest, I'm not engaging, because you are more focused on winning a debate that having correct information.

I should've stayed punched out from the conversation when I said I would because this discussion has produced absolutely nothing beneficial. You're right, everyone else is wrong, and I hope you have a great holiday!

I would like to have the correct information. Car enthusiast forums unfortunately have a tendency for everyone to rally around the first plausible sounding explanation for a problem, which is exactly what I see here. From my perspective you’re more focused on proving your hypothesis is correct and accusing others of the very same logical fallacies you’re committing. And from what I can see, you’ve been doing that well before I started participating in the thread. Just brow beating anyone who suggests it might be a problem with the tires and not purely a function of alignment.

Merry Christmas / Happy holidays to you as well

 

[Hayseed_MS]

@Sam1 and @terranx now kiss under the mistletoe...

 

[emailforbrett]

Get the adjustable rear arms. Adjust the CAMBER to the recommended amount from the vendor (NOT Tesla) in the LOW suspension setting and your tires will have no issues.

 

[PR0FESSOR]

@Sam1 - Would you mind taking a look at my post alignment numbers and let me know what, if anything, you would change? I am having the Tesla track package installed on the 28th of December, and will need to have an alignment checked after Tesla monkeys with my car. This car is a daily driver that does high speed runs at our local airport; I do not do any track competitions in it.

Thanks so much!

Joe

 

[Sam1]

@Sam1 - Would you mind taking a look at my post alignment numbers and let me know what, if anything, you would change? I am having the Tesla track package installed on the 28th of December, and will need to have an alignment checked after Tesla monkeys with my car. This car is a daily driver that does high speed runs at our local airport; I do not do any track competitions in it.

Thanks so much!

Joe

Those numbers look good for straight line racing. What I would check on though is to see if there's a good shop close to you that can shift your front subframe over or massage it out to equal the camber since it's about half a degree off between the sides. Not sure if the place you go to will do that or not, but a lot of performance shops familiar with Teslas will.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

That's tricky question. If you have official response that your vehicle inspected and alignment conforms specs, then you can state it's Michelin issues.
T2 on tires says that tires designed for tesla, to be precise to Tesla S. If Tesla says alignments is fine, Micheline should say the same, but obviously they cannot do that.
It's not fair game, but Michelin pays for Tesla's bullshit.

Disagree.

If this WAS/IS a Tesla-specific design or alignment spec problem, why would Michelin continue to sell their T2-Tesla Specific OEM tires to Tesla for the Model S . . . .

Frankly, it just VERY much appears that we need a newly designed, "T3" Tesla-OEM specific 21" tire for the Plaid's 1,020 horsepower and massive torque: one might think it just causes the rear tires to delaminate at the inner sidewall, judging by the dozens of photographs of this, but what do I know?

(Especially since there are effectively zero Pirelli tire failures in this same manner for the 19" OEM Plaid tire.)

 

[KOL2000]

This is all on Tesla. Same exact issue on my 2013 P+ with 21 inch wheels which had only like 400 hp (and back then the service centers had the EXACT same excuse for needing new rear tires every 6-8k miles). Installing N2itive links completely solves the issue my wear is normal now.

There is nothing on this forum or anywhere else I could find that implicates the tire company for this. it is a defect that needs a recall which unfortunately cannot be solved with a OTA software fix

 

[NeuroRad]

Disagree.

If this WAS/IS a Tesla-specific design or alignment spec problem, why would Michelin continue to sell their T2-Tesla Specific OEM tires to Tesla for the Model S . . . .

Frankly, it just VERY much appears that we need a newly designed, "T3" Tesla-OEM specific 21" tire for the Plaid's 1,020 horsepower and massive torque: one might think it just causes the rear tires to delaminate at the inner sidewall, judging by the dozens of photographs of this, but what do I know?

(Especially since there are effectively zero Pirelli tire failures in this same manner for the 19" OEM Plaid tire.)

Michelin or Tesla, which u think is going to build a more sound product?

 

[lbowroom]

This is all on Tesla. Same exact issue on my 2013 P+ with 21 inch wheels which had only like 400 hp (and back then the service centers had the EXACT same excuse for needing new rear tires every 6-8k miles). Installing N2itive links completely solves the issue my wear is normal now.

There is nothing on this forum or anywhere else I could find that implicates the tire company for this. it is a defect that needs a recall which unfortunately cannot be solved with a OTA software fix

If you read a little bit more you’ll find the simple “too much camber” which led your 2013 to wear increasingly more as you got to the inside of the tire is not the “same” issue the refresh has.

Refresh problem is combination of camber and toe, which flexes out. This is what causes the tire to split. At stock height, it can mostly be mitigated with toe in adjustment.

 

[PR0FESSOR]

I would like to note, as @Sam1 suggested, my toe settings were completely out, and the left tire, which had the worst wear, also had the worst toe-out. I am happy that I purchased the adjustable camber arms so that I can dial-in camber, however, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the toe-out played a role in my tire wear. Tesla owns this fully in my opinion. I sure wish I had an alignment done as soon as I purchased my Model S Plaid in April of this year. I could have saved myself some grief, I think.

Joe

 

[Sam1]

I would like to note, as @Sam1 suggested, my toe settings were completely out, and the left tire, which had the worst wear, also had the worst toe-out. I am happy that I purchased the adjustable camber arms so that I can dial-in camber, however, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the toe-out played a role in my tire wear. Tesla owns this fully in my opinion. I sure wish I had an alignment done as soon as I purchased my Model S Plaid in April of this year. I could have saved myself some grief, I think.

Joe

I don't know anything about manufacturing processes, but do have a working knowledge of mechanical engineering and metallurgy associated with a side gig I have in combat robotics, so your previous explanation of how they rely on alignment by design off the factory line makes perfect sense on why some of the cars are messed up from the start. Tesla manufacturing generally isn't well-known for it's precision.

 

[signalbobby]

I filed a NHTSA report, filed a Michelin tire warranty claim, and contacted Tesla service via my Tesla app. I will report back once I hear something from Michelin or Tesla.

Joe

Nothing will happen here.

 

[signalbobby]

After having problems with both MSP and MXP rear tire problems, i can say definitively you need to get adjustable rear camber arms. Zero them out and have very little toe in. A reputable alignment shop can help you. Both MSP and MXP with the N2itive arms you need to go +7mm to get to close to zero. Rear wear has been where it should be. Phenomenal.

TARTAN SX-P2 2021+ Tesla Model S/X PLAID & Long Range Forged Adjustable Rear Upper Camber Arms