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That only appears to be the case with the 21" Arachnid wheels. No change on the 19" Tempest.Well it looks like the range on the Model S refresh has been reduced to 375 miles for the LR and 350 for plaid. This is a pretty big change from 412 and 390.
Ah, yes sir/ma'am you are correct!That only appears to be the case with the 21" Arachnid wheels. No change on the 19" Tempest.
Yes, Tesla got the lawyers covering their claims, and yes, shame on customers like me for not knowing that the spec below in the Tesla Design Studio (ordering page) meant that S60 and S85D motor power was reachable while P85D would have required a 50% power boots to reach that number. In retrospect, it's absolutely clear, but only after buying stuff from Tesla and knowing that they will lawyer every claim to deliver the absolute least they can get away with.Even putting aside "real world" tests are testing something completely different than the EPA cycle (especially the combined cycle that people compare to), it has not been demonstrated that Tesla is the sole outlier. For example, you can look at Inside EV's 70mph testing, Tesla's certainly not the only one that gets below EPA:
EV Range Tests: Real-World Vs EPA
Tesla had also gone through EPA confirmatory testing, and EPA did not find problems with Tesla's numbers.
There's an in depth discussion here in the past, but your take is quite wrong.
The actual EU test standard (which forms the basis of the numbers that are on the EU certificate) is done using ECE R85, where the motor tests are done on a test bench and power supply (that can't drop more than 5% during the test).
[updated with *] P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"
Tesla did settle a lawsuit on this matter in Norway (which isn't in the EU, although they are part of Europe, and they tend to have the most consumer friendly courts), but they didn't lose or settle lawsuits related to this elsewhere, nor were they required to change any of their certificate numbers. Tesla had to settle on in Norway the basis of it being misleading to customers, but not on the test standards supposedly giving 463 hp. You can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, and if you have evidence of the certificates being deemed incorrect.
Tesla Settles with Angry P85D Owners in EV-Friendly Norway over Horsepower Ratings
Additional plaintiffs were added to original case in 2018, but no change in the overall effects:
Tesla receives another Model S P85D lawsuit in Norway
In terms of horsepower advertisement, there is not set standard that is required (unlike EPA figures) so anything goes really. I remember back then I looked it up in 2015 and 2016 Ram was still using SAE gross figures for their diesel trucks. This allows them to use a different intake, exhaust, fuel injection, ignition timing settings, and no engine driven accessories (even ones necessary for operation of the engine like oil, water pumps, and alternators), which gives a figure that can't necessarily be achieved in a stock vehicle, but is completely legal to use in advertising.
Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L
I hope so. I'll hang on to White Fang (2020 Raven Performance) and wait to see what happens.Ah, they'll never make a plaid plus. It'll be a plaid performance!
I didn't say you said Norway was in the EU, just mentioned that, given the EU motor power certificates Tesla uses for their defense may not necessarily be applicable to Norway, given they aren't in the EU (even though they still follow a lot of EU standards regardless).Yes, Tesla got the lawyers covering their claims, and yes, shame on customers like me for not knowing that the spec below in the Tesla Design Studio (ordering page) meant that S60 and S85D motor power was reachable while P85D would have required a 50% power boots to reach that number. In retrospect, it's absolutely clear, but only after buying stuff from Tesla and knowing that they will lawyer every claim to deliver the absolute least they can get away with.
View attachment 671310
I'm sure they can legally defend the EPA rating too, even if almost nobody ever reaches it. I also doubt Tesla re-certifies their cars with every single software update they push out too, so they could be pulling a VW there too, make the car less powerful for the test, more powerful later with newer software. I'm sure, much like the horsepower argument, their lawyers would be able to defend it in most courts (perhaps not in Norway, which I never said was in the EU btw - oh, and they just lost another lawsuit there over the 85KWh claim and later further nerfing of the batteries, $16K per car IIRC).
On this subject of EPA rated range, in my own 2021 Model 3 SR+, it's trivial to achieve EPA rated range (even the combined rating, much less the highway one). I just drive a mixed cycle (a mix of slower local roads with a little bit of highway). When I drive on the highway more, especially if it's uphill, then I'll get lower.I've owned 4 Model S, never managed to get the rated range, ever, not even when I tried driving calmly under the speed limit for a few days - I even tracked rated range with a go-pro, watched it go down, and it didn't agree with the energy consumption the car showed, there was some 700-1000W draw not accounted for, my best guess HVAC system or MCU (I did this on a 2013 Model S).
So yes, I agree with you that Tesla cars are absolutely capable of the EPA rated range, in some narrow scenario, perhaps with a specific software version. Just like all 2016+ Tesla's are Full Self Driving (autonomy level 5 as advertised between 2016-2019) capable.
Why are you so convinced we can't have both? You realize there are cars that cost $15k and also $1.5M, right?
$25k EVs with 100 miles of range will drive broad adoption of charging stations. $160k luxury cars with more performance and longer range will drive EV adoption among those who don't want to compromise anything vs. an ICE car.
By that logic, the Plaid shouldn't exist at all. Nobody NEEDS to go 0-60 in under 2 seconds. We're at the point where you're playing games with semantics. You clearly view all EV owners through your own personal lens and refuse to consider that perhaps different people have different criteria when picking a car. All good. You can have your $25k car with 200 miles of range and i'll hold out hope of one day being able to throw enough money at a company that I can have an EV with 500 miles of range.you can have both, but you do not need both. You do however need the 25K ev. Guess which one you don’t need?
I think your comment is very perceptive and true.because it goes directly against traditional franchise/dealership ICE car business model in some ways. Ex: Most of a dealerships profits arent from new car sales, its from maintenance and post-warranty repair work. Aging ice cars have so many things to repair, maintain, etc. Boom to the service dept bottom line. And those BMW/Benz Schedule A/Schdule B, etc regular maintnance visits? $$$. Thats if they find NOTHING additional to bill you for. It's a beautiful business model for them.
Now you toss in electric. Faster than AMG and //M and anything else. Far far fewer moving parts. HArdly anything at all to maintain. Thats a nightmare for car dealerships. Plus big oil companies have close partnerhips with ICE car makers. ("We recommend MObil 1 Oil only in your AMG") So as a dealer, you fight against it as long as you can.
By that logic, the Plaid shouldn't exist at all. Nobody NEEDS to go 0-60 in under 2 seconds.
Plaid+ is canceled. Range anxiety isn’t.There went the derailing. From plaid+ to range.
Range anxiety not needed. It’s good enough.Plaid+ is canceled. Range anxiety isn’t.
I'll cross my fingers and hope it has the Plaid+ range for $20k less...but not holding my breath.The price of the Model S Plaid just went up $10k to $130k. I wonder if people switching from a Plaid+ to a Plaid now will pay the new or old price.
View attachment 671441
Note: The Model X Plaid is still $120k.
The price of the Model S Plaid just went up $10k to $130k. I wonder if people switching from a Plaid+ to a Plaid now will pay the new or old price.
View attachment 671441
Note: The Model X Plaid is still $120k.