Politics - Quarantine Thread

[Arthur Itis]

The country is made up of people. Which people do you prefer ?

The ones that are productive and responsible. What other type is there to prefer? We're kind of off-topic by going down this line of questioning. So let me try to get back to it:

I don't like subsidies of any kind. Not for anybody. I don't feel it's the governments job to hand out taxpayer dollars to specific causes or interests - to pick winners and losers. Let the free market do that as people are intelligent enough to know what's good for them (mostly). A low income family can't afford to buy an electric car any time soon so they won't benefit from their tax dollars being handed out to people who will. They are likely driving beat up used cars and probably will for some time to come - until Tesla or someone else starts selling an affordable EV.

Besides, it's too easy for them (Congress critters) to pile into a stock (or have their spouse buy in so they can claim 'it wasn't me!'), knowing they are going to be advocating for it. How many people get elected to Congress 'wealthy' and come out filthy rich?

 

[ucmndd]

I believe he is generally right, but don't believe that governments have NO role in subsidizing industries, technologies, and common good advancements for society. The "free market", left entirely to its own devices, will not hesitate for a second in making the planet completely uninhabitable.

Consumer-facing subsidies are particularly terrible, in that they promote gamesmanship and money-grabbing politics across the board. In this case, automakers simply raise prices in anticipation of or reaction to the tax credit (look at Tesla's price increases over the last year that more or less completely negate the effect of the proposed credit). The unions call in political favors to get anticompetitive special treatment. Consumers themselves play games with reservations, endless delivery deferrals, and order cancellations in anticipation of a windfall that may or may not come.

So yeah, I agree with Tesla - given the choice between an ill-conceived and politically biased consumer tax credit and no credit at all, we're better off with nothing. Subsidize clean energy transition in other more equitable ways.

 

[Mark2018s]

I believe he is generally right, but don't believe that governments have NO role in subsidizing industries, technologies, and common good advancements for society. The "free market", left entirely to its own devices, will not hesitate for a second in making the planet completely uninhabitable.

Consumer-facing subsidies are particularly terrible, in that they promote gamesmanship and money-grabbing politics across the board. In this case, automakers simply raise prices in anticipation of or reaction to the tax credit (look at Tesla's price increases over the last year that more or less completely negate the effect of the proposed credit). The unions call in political favors to get anticompetitive special treatment. Consumers themselves play games with reservations, endless delivery deferrals, and order cancellations in anticipation of a windfall that may or may not come.

So yeah, I agree with Tesla - given the choice between an ill-conceived and politically biased consumer tax credit and no credit at all, we're better off with nothing. Subsidize clean energy transition in other more equitable ways.

I prefer no subsidies at all.

Free market capitalism doesn't need help.

 

[SageBrush]

The ones that are productive and responsible.

Who decides ? You ? There is your personal agenda rearing its ugly head. So you send a representative that (presumably) acts to advance your agenda. Politics being what it is, your agenda rep horse-trades with other politicians to get some of what she wants, and in return agrees to some of what you do not want.

Is that the corruption you want to avoid ?

 

[ucmndd]

Free market capitalism doesn't need help.

Agreed with a major caveat - free market capitalism doesn't need any help, so long as it's acceptable to literally torch the planet in pursuit of profit. If the only goal is unfettered economic output, there's no better system.

If the goal is a sustainable society and long-term habitable planet, the free market is woefully incapable of addressing that on its own.

 

[Mark2018s]

Agreed with a major caveat - free market capitalism doesn't need any help, so long as it's acceptable to literally torch the planet in pursuit of profit. If the only goal is unfettered economic output, there's no better system.

If the goal is a sustainable society and long-term habitable planet, the free market is woefully incapable of addressing that on its own.

Not sure where the "acceptable to literally torch the planet in pursuit of profit" comes from....or how subsidies would prevent that. It seems to me that electric tech at this stage is not helping save the planet, wouldn't subsidizing it make it more destructive?

I dont believe EV should be forced on people...my brother hates EV cars...hes a motor guy, like a lot of people...should be a choice, just like getting a virus shot should be a choice and not mandated.

 

[rhumbliner]

Companies should rise and fall on their own merits. This use to be the American way.

While I share your dislike of subsidies, you have to admit subsidies are very much a part of the American way. The companies who built the transcontinental railroad received extensive subsidies, the oil companies still receive substantial subsidies, and of course farming receives massive subsidies. You may argue that some subsidies were/are necessary but you can’t argue that they haven’t been a part of our government from the start.

Railroads in the Late 19th Century | Rise of Industrial America, 1876-1900 | U.S. History Primary Source Timeline | Classroom Materials at the Library of Congress | Library of Congress

Beginning in the early 1870s, railroad construction in the United States increased dramatically.

www.loc.gov

Fossil Fuel Subsidies Top $450 Billion Annually, Study Says - Inside Climate News

The governments of the world’s 20 largest economies spend more than $450 billion annually subsidizing the fossil fuel industry, a new analysis has concluded, four times more than what they spend on renewable energy. The report by Oil Change International, a Washington-based advocacy...

insideclimatenews.org

Farmers Got Billions From Taxpayers In 2019, And Hardly Anyone Objected

Farmers got more than $22 billion in government payments in 2019 — and most of the money came through a program that Congress never approved. It's the highest level of farm subsidies in 14 years.

www.npr.org

 

[ucmndd]

I dont believe EV should be forced on people...my brother hates EV cars...hes a motor guy, like a lot of people...should be a choice, just like getting a virus shot should be a choice and not mandated.

I think it's best we leave it here as it appears we have fundamentally incompatible values systems.

I don't believe this American view of freedom (basically "I can do what I want, nobody else should have any say over anything I do whatsoever") is sustainable, moral, or ethical. I believe civilized society has the right and obligation to demand that people who wish to participate in and benefit from that society adhere to standards that protect shared resources and don't endanger others. If you want to opt out of those common good considerations, society should have no obligation to accommodate you, be it on our roads, in our places of business, etc.

This general attitude of human selfishness is precisely why the free market is completely incapable of addressing tragedy of the commons issues like climate change, clean air/water, and pandemics.

 

[Arthur Itis]

Who decides ? You ? There is your personal agenda rearing its ugly head. So you send a representative that (presumably) acts to advance your agenda. Politics being what it is, your agenda rep horse-trades with other politicians to get some of what she wants, and in return agrees to some of what you do not want.

Is that the corruption you want to avoid ?

If personal responsibility and productivity represent an agenda in America today then I guess we're kind of doomed.

I've answered enough questions that are off-topic and I've made my position clear on the issues.

 

[SageBrush]

If personal responsibility and productivity represent an agenda

Of course it does.

Is working for the government 'productive' ? How about gambling ? Day trading ? Prostitution ?
Is caring for a child born outside of marriage being personally responsible ?

You see in the world in black and white when it is nothing of the sort.

How old are you ??

 

[Arthur Itis]

Of course it does.

Is working for the government 'productive' ? How about gambling ? Day trading ? Prostitution ?
Is caring for a child born outside of marriage being personally responsible ?

You see in the world in black and white when it is nothing of the sort.

How old are you ??

Old enough to know when someone is trolling.

 

[SageBrush]

Old enough to know when someone is trolling.

I'm not trolling, I'm trying to encourage you to think a little deeper than slogans. If you find that impossible or objectionable, I recommend the libertarian party when you are old enough.

 

[Arthur Itis]

I'm not trolling, I'm trying to encourage you to think a little deeper than slogans. If you find that impossible or objectionable, I recommend the libertarian party when you are old enough.

Frankly, your condescending attitude has me rolling my eyes. I'm old enough already. What I am not, is some egotistical keyboard warrior assuming I know how other people should think when they get 'older'.

You clearly support the subsidies. I don't. Let's agree to disagree, since that is the mature thing to do.

 

[Mark2018s]

I think it's best we leave it here as it appears we have fundamentally incompatible values systems.

I don't believe this American view of freedom (basically "I can do what I want, nobody else should have any say over anything I do whatsoever") is sustainable, moral, or ethical. I believe civilized society has the right and obligation to demand that people who wish to participate in and benefit from that society adhere to standards that protect shared resources and don't endanger others. If you want to opt out of those common good considerations, society should have no obligation to accommodate you, be it on our roads, in our places of business, etc.

This general attitude of human selfishness is precisely why the free market is completely incapable of addressing tragedy of the commons issues like climate change, clean air/water, and pandemics.

That's fine...if you do not wish to discuss why you think a certain way, that's your prerogative.

As we fall farther into socialism, the country is suffering...I will continue to speak out for traditional values that made this country, whenever its appropriate.

 

[Llama.]

I sort of get where Elon is coming from; Tesla clearly doesn’t need any subsidies, but I don’t completely agree that they offer no value.

I think subsidising the EV charging infrastructure has some value, particularly in areas where the free market will leave gaps in provision. A bit like rural broadband infrastructure. I don’t think we can just leave it to Tesla and Electrify America to ensure equitable access across the country. Central govt definitely has a role in infrastructure planning.

Subsidising the purchase of EVs may have some value in accelerating the transition to clean energy. I think it is reasonable to incentivise people to ditch polluting ICE cars, but it needs to benefit those who need it the most and I’m not in favour of subsidies for luxury cars like Teslas. So I’d suggest any subsidies should be limited for cars costing under $30k.

 

[ucmndd]

That's fine...if you do not wish to discuss why you think a certain way, that's your prerogative.

As we fall farther into socialism, the country is suffering...I will continue to speak out for traditional values that made this country, whenever its appropriate.

I mean, I feel like I just explained pretty clearly why I think a certain way. I'm more saying I have no interest in trying to defend that or convince a stranger on the internet, who by all means appears to have diametrically opposed views, of the validity of my values. Particularly in a thread/forum/setting that isn't really on that topic.

 

[Firocity]

It’s not looking good for the bill with the inflation numbers and the GOP trickery of the revised CBO score. Manchin doesn’t seem like he wants to sign on. The crappy part is the inflation numbers that were out today don’t reflect the improvement we have seem in the last couple of weeks.

Biden says he will speak with Manchin next week

President Biden on Friday acknowledged that he wasn’t sure he could get Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) on board to pass his sweeping climate and social spending package but said he would be talking to …

thehill.com

Graham hopes to sway Manchin against Biden plan with new CBO report

Republicans are hoping to sway Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) into hitting pause on President Biden’s climate and social spending plan — or nixing it altogether — using a new Congressional B…

thehill.com

 

[nate704]

It’s not looking good for the bill with the inflation numbers and the GOP trickery of the revised CBO score. Manchin doesn’t seem like he wants to sign on. The crappy part is the inflation numbers that were out today don’t reflect the improvement we have seem in the last couple of weeks.

Are you talking about this kind of "improvement"?

 

[Firocity]

Are you talking about this kind of "improvement"?
View attachment 743021

It went down quite a bit more here in Texas, almost 25 cents a gallon less than a few weeks ago.

 

[doomsday997]

It’s not looking good for the bill with the inflation numbers and the GOP trickery of the revised CBO score. Manchin doesn’t seem like he wants to sign on. The crappy part is the inflation numbers that were out today don’t reflect the improvement we have seem in the last couple of weeks.

Biden says he will speak with Manchin next week

President Biden on Friday acknowledged that he wasn’t sure he could get Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) on board to pass his sweeping climate and social spending package but said he would be talking to …

thehill.com

Graham hopes to sway Manchin against Biden plan with new CBO report

Republicans are hoping to sway Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) into hitting pause on President Biden’s climate and social spending plan — or nixing it altogether — using a new Congressional B…

thehill.com

If manchin wants an excuse to flat out vote no, he definitely has one.