TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

Poll: AWD M3s software upgradable to performance edition some day?

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by TurnFast, Jul 21, 2018.

?

Will Tesla let AWD users unlock the full motor potential to performance version levels?

  1. Yes Tesla will offer a paid software upgrade to AWD users

    53 vote(s)
    27.6%
  2. No

    139 vote(s)
    72.4%
  1. Knightshade

    Knightshade Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    4,490
    Location:
    NC
    Except, again there's only one rear motor in the entire parts catalog across all LR model 3s

    So RWD, AWD, and P all get the exact same rear drive units.

    If one fails- all 3 get the exact same replacement drive unit.

    Ditto for the one and only part # for front motors in the catalog- same in AWD and P.

    So either there's no binning at all, or they started doing it and realized all motors are plenty good enough to go in any version of the car.
     
  2. AlanSubie4Life

    AlanSubie4Life Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2018
    Messages:
    1,908
    Location:
    San Diego
    Remember they can bin motors and throw away the rejects, and they're *still binning* (there is bin1, and then all the failures...). This is common production practice. And they can have one part number. And that would be completely consistent with what Elon said. (Though it would indeed have been a misleading tweet.) It is also possible they were actually putting a non-negligible number of rejects in some early AWD cars (some received passing motors too), and it's no longer needed since the process window has tightened. Also consistent with what Elon said.
     
  3. 127.0.0.0

    127.0.0.0 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2018
    Messages:
    166
    Location:
    California
    I am not sure if the hardware is any diffrent or not, but I have the P3D- and on the window sticker it said Performance Dual Motor I am not sure on Long range sticker says the same or just Dual Motor under the price breakdown on the right side.

    Because they seem to be stating specifically on the sticker that these are the Performance Dual Motors.
     
  4. Knightshade

    Knightshade Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    4,490
    Location:
    NC
    Then there would be a "production prior to X date" drive unit in the catalog for these "reject" motors they actually put into cars.

    Just like there is for the suspension parts they replaced with newer parts in December (and again in June) on RWD cars for example.

    But there's only 1 production rear drive unit PN, ever, for all LR models. Ditto front DU.

    That means it got the software flash to unlock more power and add the red underline. Same drive units though.
     
  5. AlanSubie4Life

    AlanSubie4Life Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2018
    Messages:
    1,908
    Location:
    San Diego
    #45 AlanSubie4Life, Nov 1, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
    I see. So for those suspension parts, the old part is in the catalog but it says "superseded by" part x?

    For the motors: I'm not sure that it requires a separate part number, as the screening was only made better as time went by. All units, even the first production units possibly, are 100% identical; they are just binned based on "output" or whatever metric that is relevant for reliability (ones that aren't a pass are discarded - that's binning), and the production limits have been tightened over time. The part number doesn't have to change - they've just made it better through screening (adjusting screening limits to be tighter over time) to avoid field failures/RMAs. It's different than a design change. Happens in production environments all the time. Since the less well screened motors ONLY ever went in certain vehicles (possibly RWD and AWD), it's ok.

    In any case I guess Elon wasn't lying in his tweet! Just playing up the Performance model! "Lot sorted for highest sigma output" just means they reject ALL parts which fall outside the production limit line - they don't go in any vehicle. There is I guess the question of "double the burn-in"...double the burn-in relative to what? Maybe double the burn-in relative to early production motors, just to make sure they can take future uncorking. Probably they found they could do this without limiting yields as manufacturing improved. But they can't go back and screen motors that have already shipped to early RWD & early AWD customers!

    You might say: But the RWD max output is the same as the performance, so it must be just as good as a Performance motor! Not necessarily - it just has less margin to failure with the as-of-today software limited max current. But Tesla knows such motors were screened sufficiently (perhaps not receiving quite the same screening or burn-in though with their early test programs) to sustain the existing software current limit. But to allow future uncorking of the Performance (this speculation would imply the Performance is not currently uncorked, otherwise Performance rear motor output would be higher than RWD right now), they started to set more aggressive screening limits for ALL motors (with minimal yield loss presumably). Now they can proceed with further uncorking on Performance line only, knowing that ALL motors installed (or installed in the future) in such vehicles will be able to take it. They cannot do the same for AWD or RWD vehicles because some have early motors (with the same part number), which were screened with a looser limit.

    * Edit - I suppose since even the original limit was good enough for RWD output, they could boost the AWD rear motor to the same level as the current Performance power limit....hmm. But I don't think they will - I think any increase in current & power probably increases probability of drive unit failure, so why would they take that on...

    No assumptions needed, the above is a completely standard production flow as a product matures and process control improves, but it's all speculation.
     
  6. Knightshade

    Knightshade Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    4,490
    Location:
    NC
    It did until today.

    Interestingly they appear to have removed a LOT of details today from the parts catalog.

    Before today the spring/shock info for example said stuff like "RWD mfg before 12/17/2017" and "RWD mfg after 12/17/2017 but before June X 2018" and "RWD mfg after June X 2018" (can't remember what X was)... and then listed the AWD/P parts without any date distinction

    Now it just lists several different parts all "RWD" without the date or any other info so you know which one you'd need when ordering a part based on MFG date.

    Likewise the rear drive unit used to say it was for ALL LR Model 3s (and there's another drive unit for the MR, which appears to be the same as what will go into the SR model)- but now it doesn't give details on the two so it's less obvious.

    And front DU just said for all AWD model 3s, now it says nothing (but still only the 1 part)


    Kind of annoying of a change.... I was able to grab the differences in drive units, shocks/springs, and sway bars (in another thread I posted) but I'm sure there's tons more interesting info on differences, or lack thereof, that they've removed details on now :(
     
  7. Jedi2155

    Jedi2155 Model 3 has Arrived.

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2018
    Messages:
    1,262
    Location:
    Diamond Bar, CA
    Here's an idea...they could pay for all the P3D+ refunds / P3D- upgrades by selling the software unlock to AWD owners for a low low price of $7,000.-$10,000.

    Why that instead of the original $11,000 delta from 53k vs. 63k?
    • P3D+ owners get their $5000 refund.
    • P3D- owners get their PUP upgrade OR $5000 refund bringing their net cost to $6000 (less than the new upgrade price)
    • New AWD to P3D- configuration owners get the upgrade the wanted originally but couldn't afford
      • At lower price than initially offered making it even more tempting
      • Still more than what P3D- owners effectively paid (if they chose the refund)
    This is a win win win situation to Tesla, and all owners IMO. Oh, and original P3D's should keep their FUSC ;)
     
    • Love x 1
  8. super20g

    super20g Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2018
    Messages:
    516
    Location:
    United States
    I thought the difference between the 3D and P3D- was 9K when I last checked? Then P3D- customers received (are receiving) 5K back making the difference only 4K? Perhaps I am mistaken. I would be interested in ~5K uncork, but 7-10K is just too rich for my blood for a 1 sec difference stoplight thrill here and there.
     
  9. Jedi2155

    Jedi2155 Model 3 has Arrived.

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2018
    Messages:
    1,262
    Location:
    Diamond Bar, CA
    Right now the price difference is $53k for LR AWD, the P3D always had a starting price of $64k. The price difference varied from $9k to 11k depending on when ordered your AWD ($4k to $6k).

    When I ordered my P3D- originally, it was $11,000 difference for 1s (I had a $4k AWD option).
     
  10. alsetym

    alsetym Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2018
    Messages:
    31
    Location:
    hamilton
    i thought elon had mentioned that the power electronics were different on the P cars. Would make sense to have components with higher temperature ratings in there.
     
  11. Jedi2155

    Jedi2155 Model 3 has Arrived.

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2018
    Messages:
    1,262
    Location:
    Diamond Bar, CA
    The power electronics across all Model 3's are high performance silicon carbide MOSFETs. Same design, same part number.

    He tweeted, that they were binned and had double the burn in. Whether not this actually happened is up for debate. As mentioned in this sample report, one of their main issues is heat dissipation just like any CPU. It has a thermal interface material (TIM etc.), heatsink etc.

    https://www.systemplus.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/SP18413-STM_SiC_Module_Tesla_Model_3_Inverter_sample-3.pdf
     
  12. AlanSubie4Life

    AlanSubie4Life Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2018
    Messages:
    1,908
    Location:
    San Diego
    Elon said: "AC induction front & switched reluctance, partial permanent magnet rear. Silicon Carbide inverters in both. Performance drive units are lot sorted for highest sigma output & get double the burn-in."

    The above statement does not preclude that AWD and RWD cars also receive the same sorted/double burn-in drive units, and so far all evidence suggests they do. (With exception I mention above that perhaps early motors primarily in RWD vehicles, and possibly some carryover to AWD, were screened less strictly.) "Lot sorting" can just mean that they discard (do not use in any vehicle) any motors that don't meet the required "highest sigma output".

    And the power electronics, SiC module, is included in the drive unit according to what I have seen. (Part list for rear motor unit indicates MOSFET, which is a SiC MOSFET).
     
  13. Knightshade

    Knightshade Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    4,490
    Location:
    NC

    The sway bars are different (per the parts catalog) the inverters are not (but might be for the MR/SR cars- they use a different drive unit in the rear than all the LR cars)

    As to the bars BTW-

    There's 2 different front bars- one is RWD and the bigger one is AWD (both P and non-P)...with the AWD bar being 1mm smaller than the RWD bar.

    Rear bar is stranger-

    There's still only 2 in the catalog... but the second one doesn't give its size and says "For AWD, Non-performance Vehicles"

    So either the P gets the same bar as RWD and the AWD Non-P gets its own (difference unknown) or...actually couldn't think of any "or"
     
  14. mike123abc

    mike123abc Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2018
    Messages:
    274
    Location:
    Norman, OK
    They will not sell a software unlock because it would hurt P sales. Sure all the AWD owners would love the thought of being able to unlock, but very few would actually get around to spending the money. They would just be happier knowing they could one day, but being human they would always find more important things right at this moment to spend the money on.

    It would however really hurt P sales since you could just go with AWD now and get the P later, and forever procrastinate spending the money. They need to get the P owners locked in when it is only a few dollars more per month on a car payment -- and they have the all important new car fever! Good luck getting a car loan to unlock P after buying your car...
     
    • Helpful x 1
    • Like x 1
  15. Jedi2155

    Jedi2155 Model 3 has Arrived.

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2018
    Messages:
    1,262
    Location:
    Diamond Bar, CA
    This is a very good point. Probably same as what Tesla experienced with the battery unlock. People tend to want to pay less for software unlocks than hardware upgrades for some reason.....
     
  16. Atari2600

    Atari2600 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2017
    Messages:
    447
    Location:
    Cincinnati
    Using that logic they should stop selling EAP unlocks after the fact.
     
    • Like x 1
  17. EricUSC

    EricUSC Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2016
    Messages:
    229
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    On August 31, Tesla tweeted that they are working on making an aftermarket Performance Upgrade Package. Perhaps Tesla will sell a software unlock for LR-AWD and an aftermarket Performance Upgrade Package for LR-AWD and P3D-.

    I wouldn't count on anything right now, but it's possible...
     
  18. MXWing

    MXWing Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2016
    Messages:
    6,384
    Location:
    USA
    I think the 7000 post purchase activation effective does that.

    Other than the insane, who is going to put 7000 on a 20% APR credit card with a 30 day grace period versus 5000 financed over 60/72 Months at 2.25%?
     
    • Like x 1
  19. Msjulie

    Msjulie Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,574
    Location:
    San Fran Bay Area
    Clearly there is NO P3D minus and never was, it's an AWD +

    Or Stealth Performance as I see it..

    I'll guess no one can prove or disprove binning..
     
    • Like x 1
    • Disagree x 1

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC