Porsche Mission E

[gg_got_a_tesla]

Porsche annnounces BEV version of 911 - "Mission E"

The video above mentions Inductive Charging too but, that'd be double-digit kW at best, I suppose.

Another brief walkaround video here:

Porsche's Mission E previews an all-electric, Tesla-fighting Panamera video - CNET

 

[perkiset]

I disagree that it will be any easier for VW to build a network than it was Tesla. This is because of a point mentioned quite a ways above - hardly anyone needs charging where dealerships are. They are specifically placed where traffic is high for people to come purchase something, not in strategically located interstate travel locations. At first, I was frustrated that there was not one here in downtown Phoenix. Then I realized, that I only use them when road tripping and on the way out or the way back into town ... Casa Grande, Cordes Lakes, Wickenburg ... Buckeye ... Quartzsite. None of those locations, BTW, have a Porsche or VW dealership. But they do have Carl's Jr. LOL

 

[Stoneymonster]

They might have delivered that many but many thousands more had reservations that were made without knowledge of the Supercharger network.

Fair enough. I guess there's no real way to know what the effect would have been on sales.

 

[mumojem]

Porsche Mission E - 602 Wh/km - what's going on here?

Hell of on EV, no doubt, just wonder why it shows 602 wh/km efficiency?!?

This translates to 60 kWh/100 km! Could be under heavy acceleration, but why would they show it?

 

[dirkhh]

965 Wh/mile - wow. But this is clearly just a rendering, so the artist may not have realized what they were putting there...

 

[dsm363]

Fair enough. I guess there's no real way to know what the effect would have been on sales.

I would think knowledge of the Supercharger only helped sales. I doubt anyone canceled their order after finding out about the network.

I seriously doubt Porsche is willing to build out an entire network. They'll likely stick a few at dealerships and call it a day much like Nissan. Nissan has done more but not for intercity travel.

 

[Mr X]

Highly doubt that's an accurate reading.

 

[gnxs]

Looks like the speedo is at zero, so yea, a mere rendering. I wouldn't take much away from it.

 

[Spidy]

Tesla Model S P85 driving 200 km/h, 125 mph for 12 minutes on German autobahn - YouTube

The autobahn stretch was 40 km which I covered in 12 minutes averaging 200 km/h or 125 mph. Consumption was 520 Wh/km (840 Wh/mi).

Considering that 250km/h is the top speed of most luxury cars and Porsche cars often even go 300km/h on the Autobahn this does not seem unrealistic at all.

 

[Spidy]

People here seem to focus a lot on the US. Europe and especially Germany is much smaller and there are already plans supported by the Germany government and EU to roll out more fast charging infrastructure.

 

[RobStark]

People here seem to focus a lot on the US. Europe and especially Germany is much smaller and there are already plans supported by the Germany government and EU to roll out more fast charging infrastructure.

The European Union(not including Norway,Switzerland,Belarus,Ukraine etc) is over 10M square kilometers.

The US is just over 9M square kilometers.

Europe is not much smaller. Yes, Germany is roughly the size of Wisconsin.

Plans are just plans. Germany has plans to have 1 million electric vehicles on German roads by 2020.

That is never going to happen.

Governments tend to plan for minimum required not for easy convenience.

Therefore government charging stations tend to have one or two actual chargers whereas Tesla has 4-12. Government generally don't provide financing to repair chargers. Therefore they tend to go months out of order whereas Tesla chargers are repaired within 2 business days.

Even when a single Tesla charger is out of order others are still available. Germans may be better than French,Italians, and Spaniards at keeping chargers in working order but what European wants a car that you can use reliably in only one country?

Europeans tend to focus too much on Europe.

Chinese tend to focus too much on China.

It is the nature of people to care about themselves and their neighbors first.

 

[stopcrazypp]

To be fair, Germany and the EU does have a mandate to force CCS adoption. However, CCS is still at CHAdeMO speeds (50kW) right now. It'll take a while to have 100kW chargers much less higher power than that.

 

[LMB]

(LMB spouse)

(See item 3 first; it's not been addressed yet.)

1) I am in the "800 volts does not effect charge time" camp. You could split the current Model S cells up into two 42.5 kWh 400 volt batteries and put them in series. You'd use half the charge current at twice the voltage and the C rate wouldn't change.

2) Effectively the Mission E claims to be charging at around 3.2 C. Current lithium ion chemistries can do this, but the lifetime (number of charge cycles) is drastically reduced. The Model S charges at around 1.3 C max.

3) Unfortunately, 800 volts versus 400 volts is a winning marketing strategy. Consumers won't engage the underlying physics, but they know that 800 is bigger than 400. This is why the Pentium 4 was such a success: higher clock rates even though less throughput than slower competing architectures.

4) 800 volts does allow you to get twice as much energy through the existing connector contacts. This might become an issue if batteries had significantly higher capacities. As someone mentioned up-thread, this could be addressed with a series-parallel switch in the contactor.

5) For FlasherZ, I thought that national electrical code requirements become much more restrictive above 600 volts, but I'm not a code guru. I think the latest codebook has some EV-charger rules; maybe they address this specifically.

 

[Chris TX]

(LMB spouse)

(See item 3 first; it's not been addressed yet.)

1) I am in the "800 volts does not effect charge time" camp. You could split the current Model S cells up into two 42.5 kWh 400 volt batteries and put them in series. You'd use half the charge current at twice the voltage and the C rate wouldn't change.

2) Effectively the Mission E claims to be charging at around 3.2 C. Current lithium ion chemistries can do this, but the lifetime (number of charge cycles) is drastically reduced. The Model S charges at around 1.3 C max.

3) Unfortunately, 800 volts versus 400 volts is a winning marketing strategy. Consumers won't engage the underlying physics, but they know that 800 is bigger than 400. This is why the Pentium 4 was such a success: higher clock rates even though less throughput than slower competing architectures.

4) 800 volts does allow you to get twice as much energy through the existing connector contacts. This might become an issue if batteries had significantly higher capacities. As someone mentioned up-thread, this could be addressed with a series-parallel switch in the contactor.

5) For FlasherZ, I thought that national electrical code requirements become much more restrictive above 600 volts, but I'm not a code guru. I think the latest codebook has some EV-charger rules; maybe they address this specifically.

They are taking advantage of the upcoming IEC standard (which has only recently started work and is far away from becoming a ratified standard).

 

[apacheguy]

2) Effectively the Mission E claims to be charging at around 3.2 C. Current lithium ion chemistries can do this, but the lifetime (number of charge cycles) is drastically reduced. The Model S charges at around 1.3 C max.

3) Unfortunately, 800 volts versus 400 volts is a winning marketing strategy. Consumers won't engage the underlying physics, but they know that 800 is bigger than 400. This is why the Pentium 4 was such a success: higher clock rates even though less throughput than slower competing architectures.

Actually, the 60 kWh pack charges at 1.8 C. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the production version of the E will charge at considerably less than 3 C and there is no way it's going to fill up in 15 minutes in the real world. Maybe they can demonstrate it on a prototype, but it's going to require infrastructure that doesn't exist and it's also going to kill their batteries in the process.

Re 3): I bet that 8/10 Model S owners don't know that the 85 kWh variant has a 400 nominal V. kWh still wins over V in terms of public perception.

 

[MartinAustin]

On the 800 vs. 400 thing... I do not think there is anything that Tesla's engineers did not consider when adopting 400V operation. They already had just got done with 2,500 Roadsters and were now developing a new platform that would have high-wattage DC chargers all over the world in addition to 19.2kW AC charging capability. Add to that the Performance invertor, battery heating/cooling, operating limits after charging and after starting up in super-cold weather, etc., etc., and you get the idea that Tesla have a comprehensive package. Tesla took into consideration all the parts they would need for this entire system, all the voltages and currents, what would be running where, what fuses would be needed where and so on. 400V is the number that is the best number for this complex system.

By comparison, Porsche has NOTHING right now. Well, of course I am ignoring the nine hundred and eighteen Porsche 918s that have been sold... not many of which are being used as daily drivers and none of which are being used to get around the country on electric power alpong. All Porsche has right now are the words "800 Volts" which is one of the specs of a concept car... not a production car. We know they have not put together a complete system. Who knows if the 2019 production car will continue with 800V. Why would there be chargers at dealerships? (who came up with this idea, Porsche or someone on TMC ?) That stinks. Most people hate dealers and wouldn't want to have to go to them to charge up. Porsche is a low-volume, upscale marque and hardly has any dealers, compared to, say, Ford. Only putting chargers at Porsche dealerships would limit the number of chargers! And dealerships are only in large population centers - not between cities. Good luck finding a dealership in between Dallas Forth Worth and Albuquerque.

800 volts versus 400 volts is a winning marketing strategy. Consumers won't engage the underlying physics, but they know that 800 is bigger than 400.

Don't worry about this. Tesla has 10 years of experience behind them and at least 4 more years before this Porsche comes out. The public has 4 more years of learning about BEVs, and what matters about BEVs, before Porsche can sell Car #1. Do you really think they're going to be convinced that 800V is better? By the time the Model X has been out 4 years, and the Model 3 cars have been out 2 years, a lot more people will know that wattages are important, and also, that the peak wattage of a charging session only occurs at the start, and only if you have an empty battery. All brands of cars charge up at the same wattage at the end of their charging session. And so on.

Even if 800V were a winning strategy, which it isn't, how many Tesla sales do you think Porsche will take away with that thing? I can tell you, the Tesla owners who love taking their Model S to IKEA will not buy the Porsche Mission E. People who love taking 3 kids in the back won't buy it. People doing road trips with a lot of luggage won't buy it. Porsche like being a statement-of-wealth brand, and clearly signalled this with the Mission E, which is so deficient in so many areas of practicality. They don't mind if they are not ultimately practical because wealthy people have multiple vehicles for different tasks. DO NOT WORRY ABOUT THIS CAR OR 800V.

And then ultimately, even if Porsche do take a few sales away from Tesla, Porsche are still selling BEVs, and moving us towards an era where no cars spurt out carbon into the atmosphere.

p.s. this was TMC post #1000 for me

 

[Spidy]

I can tell you, the Tesla owners who love taking their Model S to IKEA will not buy the Porsche Mission E. People who love taking 3 kids in the back won't buy it. People doing road trips with a lot of luggage won't buy it.

And exactly the same can be said about the next Tesla Roadster, which will be the car the Porsche competes against.

 

[WarpedOne]

Uhmmm, that makes it 2020-2007?
Better late then never ...
I just hope they actually manage to beat it.

 

[Just a Reader]

...Porsche is a low-volume, upscale marque and hardly has any dealers, compared to, say, Ford. Only putting chargers at Porsche dealerships would limit the number of chargers! And dealerships are only in large population centers - not between cities. Good luck finding a dealership in between Dallas Forth Worth and Albuquerque...

Your view is very much centered on the US. You can take it for granted that Porsche will not go this alone but will have VW backing it up. In Europe VW will put chargers wherever it wants and they are also well represented in other global markets.

 

[lolachampcar]

Just,
I think not. It is easy to talk about doing something. Tesla is actually doing it.
The above said, I'll gladly take it all back when VW begins building and supporting ANYTHING remotely close to the SC network.