Porsche Taycan Vs Model S

[AlanSubie4Life]

I think because of the adjustment factor most other manufacturers take (range * .7)

Again, Tesla does this as well. For Model 3, they used 0.7032. Except for 2021, where they are now using 0.747 or so. (This explains a lot of the jump to the 353 rated miles from 322 rated miles.).

So for 2020 Model 3, that really doesn't explain the discrepancy here. I still think the Porsche did notably worse than I would expect in the test Porsche conducted for the EPA. There were software updates after that so I do wonder how the Porsche would do now (I haven't been following this at all).

Anyway, mostly the relative performance at freeway and city/mixed highway speeds explains part of it as discussed earlier. But I'm not sure it explains all of it.

But it doesn't really matter. Seems like realizable range is around 220-250miles at 80mph (depending on exact equipment), probably a little better than a Model 3 (I would call it similar). That's all I was trying to figure out - kind of where the Taycan ended up real world. Plenty of threads from other forums posted here now to figure it out!

 

[polyphonic54]

Interesting - EPA is hard to follow. They should stick with a single method rather than giving manufactuers any choice. It's a standardized test after all. The Porsche is so far off (second gear?, default sport settings?, sum of all drive modes?) that I consider it incompatible with the test all together. The 192-202 mile rating is 1/3 off the real range, yet they have to display that number first. Pretty unfair, tbh. I was talking with a friend who likes Porsches and he laughed off the car because the range was "only 200 miles."

They give EPA and AMCI (independent testing) ratings for all of their Taycan models which I think is very transparent of them. This test used specific highway and city routes in California, going up to 5 mph over the speed limit. They give individual number for city/highway. There used to be a little slider tool that allowed you to dial in a mixture of city, highway, and temperature to get an estimate.

When I was looking at buying my other EVs I considered Bjorn Nyland's 1000 km test (how long to get from A to B with ideal infrastructure), and the WLTP ratings for an absolute ideal number. They are very high, but in my experience they are more accurate from one car to another than EPA.

 

[PhantomX]

At the end of the day though, range is a key consideration when buyers are selecting their EV. And in many instance, the price delta between different range options is significant enough that a good percentage of people will select the lower price range option if they think that range is sufficient. If car only achieves 70% of the EPA range in real world, then it could leave a bad taste about the car and potentially about EV. I think this is where accurate representation of real world range is important. Also, I believe it's important to note that ICE cars are generally able to beat EPA numbers at highway speed, so it will surprise many ICE drivers as they switch to EV and see the inverse relationship to EPA estimate when driving at highway speed.

 

[mk677]

At the end of the day though, range is a key consideration when buyers are selecting their EV. And in many instance, the price delta between different range options is significant enough that a good percentage of people will select the lower price range option if they think that range is sufficient. If car only achieves 70% of the EPA range in real world, then it could leave a bad taste about the car and potentially about EV. I think this is where accurate representation of real world range is important. Also, I believe it's important to note that ICE cars are generally able to beat EPA numbers at highway speed, so it will surprise many ICE drivers as they switch to EV and see the inverse relationship to EPA estimate when driving at highway speed.

nobody has ever claimed that cars like the porsche taycan are popularly priced but there are many people who will pay the premium for either the reputation of the marque or the performance offered by the car.
I don't think that many beyond a few very cost conscious ICE buyers are overly concerned by the range of their ICE vehicles. if is fear of the unknown that generates range anxiety in new EV owners

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Taking One Lap of the Country in my Taycan Turbo - 10k miles in 6 weeks Cross-Country Journal

Forgot to ask when you were here: what camera are you using for all these great shots? Nothing better than early morning departures especially when the sky has a bit of a personality! Everything I’ve posted has been taken with an iphone (previous generation). I’m also carrying a Nikon...

www.taycanforum.com

Final comment on this Porsche data from me.... This last day of his trip was a good performance, 330Wh/mi, average speed of 53mph including all stops (not 62mph as the Porsche says). That average speed requires some fair amount of speed on the freeway, seems like about 70-75mph. He did 1043 miles in 19.5 hours (again, ignore what the Porsche says). Fairly similar to my I-5 trip of 1070 miles in 18.75 hours (I averaged about 57mph and most of the time I was driving 75-80 on the freeway).

So anyway I think we're in the ballpark of ~330Wh/mi around 70mph (260 miles) and ~380Wh/mi at 80mph (226 miles). Just very roughly. He had winter tires of some form on, since he drove across Canada mid-winter. So (again, this is getting repetitive!) looks fairly similar to Model 3 in range (it would do perhaps 270Wh/mi at 70mph and ~300Wh/mi at 80mph). Obviously it's key to distinguish which Model 3 is being compared (I think these numbers would be very reasonable for an AWD with Aero 18" wheels - I think I can nearly make them with my aftermarket 18" without aero covers in my Performance).

And it looks like ability to make big daily miles is very similar between the two vehicles, as you would expect from the above. The substantially higher average charge rate (primarily higher due to the very gradual taper, not the peak rate) of the Porsche is offset by its much higher consumption. I think Model 3 likely has a slight edge, assuming perfect charging networks in both cases.

And obviously these are not comparable vehicles, as has been pointed out. I know nothing about Model S, which is why I'm not bothering to compare it. It'll be interesting to see how the new Model S does though. I assume the larger capacities will have 250kW charging for a very wide SoC range, and it'll be interesting to see where it comes in on efficiency. My sense is it might fall a little bit short of Model 3 & the Porsche in terms of travel speed, but we'll see.

 

[PhantomX]

nobody has ever claimed that cars like the porsche taycan are popularly priced but there are many people who will pay the premium for either the reputation of the marque or the performance offered by the car.
I don't think that many beyond a few very cost conscious ICE buyers are overly concerned by the range of their ICE vehicles. if is fear of the unknown that generates range anxiety in new EV owners

Sorry, I didn't mean the Taycan price specifically. What I mean is price difference within a particular car model family. For example, Model 3 SR+ vs. LR has a fairly significant price difference, primarily for the extra range. Someone who can comfortably buy a SR+ may not want to stretch to buy the LR, especially if they see the SR+ range is adequate. For myself, I was debating between MR and LR, and went with MR since I thought 264 miles would give me at least 25 to 30% margin. However, My 90% charge is now at 200 miles, and I can't get better than 160 miles when driving carpool on So. Cal. freeways (which is 90% of my commute). I can charge at home, but I know a lot of people who don't necessary have that luxury given they live in condos. I would think they would be disappointed to have their 260 rated mile car getting only 160 miles in real world.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Sorry, I didn't mean the Taycan price specifically. What I mean is price difference within a particular car model family. For example, Model 3 SR+ vs. LR has a fairly significant price difference, primarily for the extra range. Someone who can comfortably buy a SR+ may not want to stretch to buy the LR, especially if they see the SR+ range is adequate. For myself, I was debating between MR and LR, and went with MR since I thought 264 miles would give me at least 25 to 30% margin. However, My 90% charge is now at 200 miles, and I can't get better than 160 miles when driving carpool on So. Cal. freeways (which is 90% of my commute). I can charge at home, but I know a lot of people who don't necessary have that luxury given they live in condos. I would think they would be disappointed to have their 260 rated mile car getting only 160 miles in real world.

The fairly common 10-15% capacity loss (it doesn't happen to everyone but it is quite common) of the Model 3 is a major consideration for prospective owners.

The Porsche has the advantage of holding around 7kWh in reserve (looks like they use about 86-97kWh now unlike the 84kWh that Google says). I assume that will be reduced as the battery capacity degrades. But it'll be interesting to see how this behaves for Porsche owners.

It really helps to start with 20% more capacity! (50% more capacity than the MR.) But again, the really key consideration is actually average charge rate, and efficiency, as far as travel is concerned (assuming you can make the distance between chargers of course). Capacity is correlated with charge rate though, so capacity is important.

 

[Needsdecaf]

So (again, this is getting repetitive!) looks fairly similar to Model 3 in range (it would do perhaps 270Wh/mi at 70mph and ~300Wh/mi at 80mph). Obviously it's key to distinguish which Model 3 is being compared (I think these numbers would be very reasonable for a AWD with Aero 18" wheels - I think I can nearly make them with my aftermarket 18" without aero covers in my Performance).

For a Model 3 Performance with 20" PS4S in standard size, this is a bit optimistic. I regularly drive from Houston to Dallas and back. My first leg is 160 miles, of which 155 miles is 65 MPH and 75 MPH posted highway. On that leg, I average about 74 MPH. My reference consumption depending on time of day and temperature is 315 to 330 Wh/Mile. The route is fairly elevation neutral with a net climb of about 300 feet going north (3000 feet climb, 2700 feet loss).

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

For a Model 3 Performance with 20" PS4S in standard size, this is a bit optimistic.

Yes, exactly as I said. Your reference consumption seems about right. I'd expect about 320Wh/mi at 80mph but I rarely travel long distances with my PS4S (they're much less durable than 18"), so I don't have a great feel for it. Generally speaking I think they add about 20Wh/mi above my Crossclimates. But it's tricky since I suspect the 20" wheels have better aero than my aftermarket 18".

The elevation gain adds about 3-4Wh/mi (1.8kWh/1000ft*300ft/160mi = 3.4Wh/mi).

The numbers I was quoting were for the AWD 18".

In any case, assuming no capacity loss (not a great assumption!), at that 320Wh/mi consumption your range is 236 miles if you don't want to go below 0%. Realistically you'll be stopping after 210 or 220 miles, tops (with about 10% of your battery capacity remaining, with 5-6% indicated remaining). Your actual max range at that consumption with no capacity loss is about 243 miles, but it would be super stressful.

 

[30seconds]

I still don't understand why we are comparing a $100,000+ Taycan to the Model 3

 

[PhantomX]

I still don't understand why we are comparing a $100,000+ Taycan to the Model 3

Obviously they are in 2 completely different class. However, Taycan raise an important question I have been asking myself. Why can't Model 3 meet or beat EPA range in real world when other EV can or come close to it?

 

[mk677]

I still don't understand why we are comparing a $100,000+ Taycan to the Model 3

correct, there is little comparison between the two cars. the model 3 is a great car at a great price, albeit being a bit bare boned. and the porsche is a car that is far better built car but you pay dearly for the evolution of the EV.

 

[kilpatds]

I don't understand the Taycan to Model 3 comparison from a size basis. The Taycan seems a far more straight forward Model S competitor. (I wish it were a Model 3 competitor: I both need and want a smaller vehicle than the Taycan/Model S)

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I still don't understand why we are comparing a $100,000+ Taycan to the Model 3

We are not really comparing them. We are just assessing the range vs. EPA of each. And I think we’ve learned a couple things which partially explain the differences.
1) Scale factor (for 2021 Model 3)
2) Possible software update for Porsche post test (unconfirmed - though it is explicitly mentioned in a CARB document)
3) Range mode etc on Porsche (unknown impact)
4) Relative performance at low speeds vs. high speed of each vehicle (seemingly paradoxically, less penalty for Porsche at high speed, even though it has more drag than the Model S at speed). Looked at this for Model S. Haven’t actually looked and plotted the curves for Model 3.
5) Maybe Porsche sand-bagged the dyno coefficients for some reason (totally speculative). Or that software update was key...

Etc.

Anyway it is not really a head-to-head comparison that is the point here.

The only thing I have been comparing head to head is travel time, which seems relevant because in the end for a road trip, a car is a car (yeah I know, not really, lol). It’s just one relevant metric that is important for EVs. But yeah, totally different market segments. Just a curiosity more than anything else.

 

[BlindPass]

nobody has ever claimed that cars like the porsche taycan are popularly priced but there are many people who will pay the premium for either the reputation of the marque or the performance offered by the car.

I don't think that many beyond a few very cost conscious ICE buyers are overly concerned by the range of their ICE vehicles. if is fear of the unknown that generates range anxiety in new EV owners

Right on. Lol at overblown range anxiety. I’m surprised this ignorance exists on TMC. You would think EV owners and fans would understand. But I suppose they’re more Tesla fans than they are EV fans.

Nearly all experienced Tesla owners that have real-world tested the Taycan will be impressed. It’s a much better car, without losing much in range function. Perhaps not worth the extra cost for getting that brand and drive quality, but that’s true for Tesla MS too. It is a great car for a vast majority of miles driven by a sedan.

 

[MXLRplus]

Right on. Lol at overblown range anxiety. I’m surprised this ignorance exists on TMC. You would think EV owners and fans would understand. But I suppose they’re more Tesla fans than they are EV fans.

Nearly all experienced Tesla owners that have real-world tested the Taycan will be impressed. It’s a much better car, without losing much in range function. Perhaps not worth the extra cost for getting that brand and drive quality, but that’s true for Tesla MS too. It is a great car for a vast majority of miles driven by a sedan.

The Taycan Turbo S is hand's down the best of the breed at this point. It has supercar performance, is comfy, well equipped, and actually handles like a sports car. But the one I drove would sticker at ~$185k. Is it $100k better than a Model S or an I-Pace HSE or FE? No and no.

I might buy a Taycan at some future point, but I'd rather have a lighter sports car and an electric supertruck with the same money.

 

[BlindPass]

The Taycan Turbo S is hand's down the best of the breed at this point. It has supercar performance, is comfy, well equipped, and actually handles like a sports car. But the one I drove would sticker at ~$185k. Is it $100k better than a Model S or an I-Pace HSE or FE? No and no.

I might buy a Taycan at some future point, but I'd rather have a lighter sports car and an electric supertruck with the same money.

Yes, the main issue with the Taycan isn’t inherent to EV. It’s the same issue as with any top trim level Porsche. I’ve always enjoyed the drive of their top trims, but have passed because you can get the normal trim plus another good car instead. In 2013 we instead got a MS over something like a high end Porsche, but the equitable cost of the MS represented more value. The (EV) torque and tech was best on the market, and better than any trim of any badge at the time.

Ive waited for the new S, Lucid, Audi, and Rivian offerings before going with the Taycan, but they have a lot to live up to. I can’t get that test drive out of my mind.

A Rivian plus MS would be a better combination than Turbo s, but damn if that thing wasn’t amazing, in a sedan no less. But the Lucid and Tesla tri motor variants may be even better for not much more? I don’t know though, new manufacturers will have a hard time getting the drive quality that good imo

 

[mk677]

Yes, the main issue with the Taycan isn’t inherent to EV. It’s the same issue as with any top trim level Porsche. I’ve always enjoyed the drive of their top trims, but have passed because you can get the normal trim plus another good car instead. In 2013 we instead got a MS over something like a high end Porsche, but the equitable cost of the MS represented more value. The EV torque and tech was best on the market, and better than any trim of any badge at the time.

Ive waited for the new S, Lucid, Audi, and Rivian offerings before going with the Taycan, but they have a lot to live up to. I can’t get that test drive out of my mind.

the lucid appears to be more like an updated models S, the audi is just a "dumbed" down porsche, missing just a few things that render it an audi and I cannot comment about the rivian.
Porsches have always have a premium price versus other sporty cars but you do "taste" the money that you spent to acquire one of the best sports cars available without entering 7 figure land.

 

[BlindPass]

the lucid appears to be more like an updated models S, the audi is just a "dumbed" down porsche, missing just a few things that render it an audi and I cannot comment about the rivian.
Porsches have always have a premium price versus other sporty cars but you do "taste" the money that you spent to acquire one of the best sports cars available without entering 7 figure land.

Likely all true- and anticipated- but one needs to drive them to see if the “step down” is worth the savings.

Put this way, I was torn on whether to get the Taycan I tested over a S, knowing it was paying a lot more for what ultimately still just one “similar” car. I was hoping the new options would swing things against even contemplating spending that much more for a modest upgrade. Having an improved MS and a worthy EV SUV/truck for the same price as the Turbo S would help me forget the excellent drive of the latter.

If one is burdened enough to be unconstrained by value, then they already have a Taycan turbo s, and are adding on to the hangar to make room for the Rivian and Roadster 2.0 Founder edition.

 

[XLR82XS]

The Taycan Turbo S is hand's down the best of the breed at this point. It has supercar performance, is comfy, well equipped, and actually handles like a sports car. But the one I drove would sticker at ~$185k. Is it $100k better than a Model S or an I-Pace HSE or FE? No and no.

I might buy a Taycan at some future point, but I'd rather have a lighter sports car and an electric supertruck with the same money.

I ordered a Taycan 2 weeks ago. Took advantage of the single motor variant and my spec is lower than the cost of a new Model S. No question Porsche over Tesla and now at ~$100K it made the decision way easier.