Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register
  • Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
  • The final cut of TMC Podcast #34 is available now with topics timestamped. We covered Tesla's rollercoaster prices, Toyota pushing junk science, Mike's new Model 3, Optimizing track mode for snow driving, FSD V11 apparently coming by the end of this week, and more. You can watch and check out the chat replay on YouTube.

Powerwall versus Givenergy batteries

I'm helping out a local club with advice in Givenergy and Tesla batteries. I've been told that Givenergy cannot balance the phases on a 3-phase supply and so if 1 phase has 2kW spare because of solar and the other two phases take 1kW each, then the customer would be billed 2kW with Givenergy whereas a Tesla PW would discharge at 2kw. Interesting challenges.
 
Apologies, this isn't about Powerwall or Givenergy but has anyone dealt with the ESE Group re battery storage?

I believe they supply Pylontech Lithium Ion battery storage solutions.

They quoted me £6500 inc VAT for supply and install of a 7kWh (2 x 3.5kWh) battery solution.

We have a 7.2kW solar system and a Zappi charger but still generate a lot of excess energy that goes back to the grid on many days.

Typically we're drawing around 7 units of electricity from the grid each day (mostly evening/night time usage), so even with the above £6.5K system installed looking at 10 years+ payback (using today's 0.28kWh elec unit rate)n assuming the battery will provide say 80% of usage not provided by solar generation.

So on economic grounds only, unless electricity prices continue to increase significantly and remain high for years to come, I'm still not seeing a decent ROI (ie, less than 10 years) on battery storage solutions at current electricity prices.

Thoughts?
 
Not a lot more to add other than I was quoted for a Givenergy inverter and 9kWh battery in July but it looks like I may have to accept a switch to Growatt as they just can't source the batteries right now. They said they had nothing for a month or so but are now getting 80% of orders from Givenergy so it may be picking up again.
 
Apologies, this isn't about Powerwall or Givenergy but has anyone dealt with the ESE Group re battery storage?

I believe they supply Pylontech Lithium Ion battery storage solutions.

They quoted me £6500 inc VAT for supply and install of a 7kWh (2 x 3.5kWh) battery solution.

We have a 7.2kW solar system and a Zappi charger but still generate a lot of excess energy that goes back to the grid on many days.

Typically we're drawing around 7 units of electricity from the grid each day (mostly evening/night time usage), so even with the above £6.5K system installed looking at 10 years+ payback (using today's 0.28kWh elec unit rate)n assuming the battery will provide say 80% of usage not provided by solar generation.

So on economic grounds only, unless electricity prices continue to increase significantly and remain high for years to come, I'm still not seeing a decent ROI (ie, less than 10 years) on battery storage solutions at current electricity prices.

Thoughts?
It's hard to give specific advice but a 7kWh battery is on the small size. It'll be fine in summer but I still think you'd draw a bit from the grid in winter.

I know that Nigel (EV Puzzle - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5X6RyBSb7FiRJ6SOummZYw) went through a similar calculation and held out on a battery until recently. It might be worth checking out some of his videos.

While the ROI is a big part of the reason for batteries, there is some peace of mind knowing that you have a system that removes as much grid involvement as possible so you are protected a little from the buffeting winds of price fluctuations in the future.
 

GRiLLA

Active Member
Jul 5, 2020
2,261
2,535
UK
Apologies, this isn't about Powerwall or Givenergy but has anyone dealt with the ESE Group re battery storage?

I believe they supply Pylontech Lithium Ion battery storage solutions.

They quoted me £6500 inc VAT for supply and install of a 7kWh (2 x 3.5kWh) battery solution.

We have a 7.2kW solar system and a Zappi charger but still generate a lot of excess energy that goes back to the grid on many days.

Typically we're drawing around 7 units of electricity from the grid each day (mostly evening/night time usage), so even with the above £6.5K system installed looking at 10 years+ payback (using today's 0.28kWh elec unit rate)n assuming the battery will provide say 80% of usage not provided by solar generation.

So on economic grounds only, unless electricity prices continue to increase significantly and remain high for years to come, I'm still not seeing a decent ROI (ie, less than 10 years) on battery storage solutions at current electricity prices.

Thoughts?
Why is < 10 years your measure of a 'decent ROI'. What's the expected lifetime, and then what's the payback over that period compared to other things you could do with that money given the likely recession we are heading towards ?

These things are expensive purchases, but seem likely to make sizeable savings, something that has a 10 years break even has doubled in value over 20, so a 5% return, not an awful investment. If the price goes up then it could be an even bigger return, or if it goes down a smaller one, that's investing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Garry TheBiz
Why is < 10 years your measure of a 'decent ROI'. What's the expected lifetime, and then what's the payback over that period compared to other things you could do with that money given the likely recession we are heading towards ?

These things are expensive purchases, but seem likely to make sizeable savings, something that has a 10 years break even has doubled in value over 20, so a 5% return, not an awful investment. If the price goes up then it could be an even bigger return, or if it goes down a smaller one, that's investing.
I think it’s because the expected lifetime of batteries is generally ten years, so you’d want shorter payback period than that. Obviously if they last longer than ten years then you’ll save even more. Of course some will be buying batteries for other reasons such as energy independence or to time shift and make more use of the energy they generate, so it isn’t always about ROI. You can pretty much make the same arguments about solar or electric cars in that some will look at it purely financially while others will do it for other reasons.

I must admit I don’t really understand why something has to have a payback period. For examole you could buy a new kitchen, TV or computer and assuming they aren’t part of your job, then they’d never have a return on investment. You buy they for the enjoyment they give. After all there’s no rational reason to buy a performance or plaid version of a Tesla but plenty do, me included!
 

Rooster6655

Active Member
May 3, 2019
2,053
832
UK
Typically we're drawing around 7 units of electricity from the grid each day (mostly evening/night time usage), so even with the above £6.5K system installed looking at 10 years+ payback (using today's 0.28kWh elec unit rate)n assuming the battery will provide say 80% of usage not provided by solar generation.

So on economic grounds only, unless electricity prices continue to increase significantly and remain high for years to come, I'm still not seeing a decent ROI (ie, less than 10 years) on battery storage solutions at current electricity prices.
I think the quote is a bit expensive tbh, the batteries seem to cost around £3k inc vat so £3.5k for the rest.

If you get the battery and charge it off peak (assuming no solar energy available) the saving you would get would be 28p-7.5p(night rate)=20.5p*7 = £1.43 a day so a 12 year payback period based on that £6.5k price. The batteries say 6000 life cycles which I assume would be minimum, if that was the case then in a 6000 cycle case you can expect a £2080 gain over the whole 6000 cycles (16.5 years).

If the initial investment is £6500 and the return on the investment is £2000 then that's around 31% over a 16.5 year period, which works out to be around 1.3% per year, of course many variables to consider especially over long periods.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: elecTED
GivEnergy powerwall+gateway

Specs very similar, wonder hows price going to compare
 

Attachments

  • 2872D87E-7C91-4EA4-B801-99D55AA28F8F.jpeg
    2872D87E-7C91-4EA4-B801-99D55AA28F8F.jpeg
    52.8 KB · Views: 58
  • 794B0C85-9539-4D23-9203-5237481CDB80.jpeg
    794B0C85-9539-4D23-9203-5237481CDB80.jpeg
    293.4 KB · Views: 48
  • 8541C5CD-A536-41B3-827C-3A24D89ABF04.jpeg
    8541C5CD-A536-41B3-827C-3A24D89ABF04.jpeg
    160 KB · Views: 49

About Us

Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.

Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


SUPPORT TMC
Top