Powerwall versus Givenergy batteries

[RedMod3]

I'm helping out a local club with advice in Givenergy and Tesla batteries. I've been told that Givenergy cannot balance the phases on a 3-phase supply and so if 1 phase has 2kW spare because of solar and the other two phases take 1kW each, then the customer would be billed 2kW with Givenergy whereas a Tesla PW would discharge at 2kw. Interesting challenges.

 

[MrT3]

Otherwise at night I'd look out the window for street lights

Doesn’t help if there is just one phase out, which your house is on.

 

[ACarneiro]

Doesn’t help if there is just one phase out, which your house is on.

Well, I would expect that to be a fairly niche scenario…

 

[MrT3]

Well, I would expect that to be a fairly niche scenario…

Not for my house/street

 

[elecTED]

Apologies, this isn't about Powerwall or Givenergy but has anyone dealt with the ESE Group re battery storage?

I believe they supply Pylontech Lithium Ion battery storage solutions.

They quoted me £6500 inc VAT for supply and install of a 7kWh (2 x 3.5kWh) battery solution.

We have a 7.2kW solar system and a Zappi charger but still generate a lot of excess energy that goes back to the grid on many days.

Typically we're drawing around 7 units of electricity from the grid each day (mostly evening/night time usage), so even with the above £6.5K system installed looking at 10 years+ payback (using today's 0.28kWh elec unit rate)n assuming the battery will provide say 80% of usage not provided by solar generation.

So on economic grounds only, unless electricity prices continue to increase significantly and remain high for years to come, I'm still not seeing a decent ROI (ie, less than 10 years) on battery storage solutions at current electricity prices.

Thoughts?

 

[MattM76]

Not a lot more to add other than I was quoted for a Givenergy inverter and 9kWh battery in July but it looks like I may have to accept a switch to Growatt as they just can't source the batteries right now. They said they had nothing for a month or so but are now getting 80% of orders from Givenergy so it may be picking up again.

 

[MattM76]

Apologies, this isn't about Powerwall or Givenergy but has anyone dealt with the ESE Group re battery storage?

I believe they supply Pylontech Lithium Ion battery storage solutions.

They quoted me £6500 inc VAT for supply and install of a 7kWh (2 x 3.5kWh) battery solution.

We have a 7.2kW solar system and a Zappi charger but still generate a lot of excess energy that goes back to the grid on many days.

Typically we're drawing around 7 units of electricity from the grid each day (mostly evening/night time usage), so even with the above £6.5K system installed looking at 10 years+ payback (using today's 0.28kWh elec unit rate)n assuming the battery will provide say 80% of usage not provided by solar generation.

So on economic grounds only, unless electricity prices continue to increase significantly and remain high for years to come, I'm still not seeing a decent ROI (ie, less than 10 years) on battery storage solutions at current electricity prices.

Thoughts?

It's hard to give specific advice but a 7kWh battery is on the small size. It'll be fine in summer but I still think you'd draw a bit from the grid in winter.

I know that Nigel (EV Puzzle - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5X6RyBSb7FiRJ6SOummZYw) went through a similar calculation and held out on a battery until recently. It might be worth checking out some of his videos.

While the ROI is a big part of the reason for batteries, there is some peace of mind knowing that you have a system that removes as much grid involvement as possible so you are protected a little from the buffeting winds of price fluctuations in the future.

 

[GRiLLA]

Apologies, this isn't about Powerwall or Givenergy but has anyone dealt with the ESE Group re battery storage?

I believe they supply Pylontech Lithium Ion battery storage solutions.

They quoted me £6500 inc VAT for supply and install of a 7kWh (2 x 3.5kWh) battery solution.

We have a 7.2kW solar system and a Zappi charger but still generate a lot of excess energy that goes back to the grid on many days.

Typically we're drawing around 7 units of electricity from the grid each day (mostly evening/night time usage), so even with the above £6.5K system installed looking at 10 years+ payback (using today's 0.28kWh elec unit rate)n assuming the battery will provide say 80% of usage not provided by solar generation.

So on economic grounds only, unless electricity prices continue to increase significantly and remain high for years to come, I'm still not seeing a decent ROI (ie, less than 10 years) on battery storage solutions at current electricity prices.

Thoughts?

Why is < 10 years your measure of a 'decent ROI'. What's the expected lifetime, and then what's the payback over that period compared to other things you could do with that money given the likely recession we are heading towards ?

These things are expensive purchases, but seem likely to make sizeable savings, something that has a 10 years break even has doubled in value over 20, so a 5% return, not an awful investment. If the price goes up then it could be an even bigger return, or if it goes down a smaller one, that's investing.

 

[Foucault]

Why is < 10 years your measure of a 'decent ROI'. What's the expected lifetime, and then what's the payback over that period compared to other things you could do with that money given the likely recession we are heading towards ?

These things are expensive purchases, but seem likely to make sizeable savings, something that has a 10 years break even has doubled in value over 20, so a 5% return, not an awful investment. If the price goes up then it could be an even bigger return, or if it goes down a smaller one, that's investing.

I think it’s because the expected lifetime of batteries is generally ten years, so you’d want shorter payback period than that. Obviously if they last longer than ten years then you’ll save even more. Of course some will be buying batteries for other reasons such as energy independence or to time shift and make more use of the energy they generate, so it isn’t always about ROI. You can pretty much make the same arguments about solar or electric cars in that some will look at it purely financially while others will do it for other reasons.

I must admit I don’t really understand why something has to have a payback period. For examole you could buy a new kitchen, TV or computer and assuming they aren’t part of your job, then they’d never have a return on investment. You buy they for the enjoyment they give. After all there’s no rational reason to buy a performance or plaid version of a Tesla but plenty do, me included!

 

[ACarneiro]

I’m pretty sure the warranty on the batteries is generally ten years.
I would expect the useful lifetime to be at least twice that!

 

[Rooster6655]

Typically we're drawing around 7 units of electricity from the grid each day (mostly evening/night time usage), so even with the above £6.5K system installed looking at 10 years+ payback (using today's 0.28kWh elec unit rate)n assuming the battery will provide say 80% of usage not provided by solar generation.

So on economic grounds only, unless electricity prices continue to increase significantly and remain high for years to come, I'm still not seeing a decent ROI (ie, less than 10 years) on battery storage solutions at current electricity prices.

I think the quote is a bit expensive tbh, the batteries seem to cost around £3k inc vat so £3.5k for the rest.

If you get the battery and charge it off peak (assuming no solar energy available) the saving you would get would be 28p-7.5p(night rate)=20.5p*7 = £1.43 a day so a 12 year payback period based on that £6.5k price. The batteries say 6000 life cycles which I assume would be minimum, if that was the case then in a 6000 cycle case you can expect a £2080 gain over the whole 6000 cycles (16.5 years).

If the initial investment is £6500 and the return on the investment is £2000 then that's around 31% over a 16.5 year period, which works out to be around 1.3% per year, of course many variables to consider especially over long periods.

 

[crashzero]

GivEnergy powerwall+gateway

Specs very similar, wonder hows price going to compare

 

[squarepeg77]

GivEnergy powerwall+gateway

Specs very similar, wonder hows price going to compare

That looks very interesting. I don’t see it on the Givenergy website yet. Where did you see this?

 

[browellm]

That looks very interesting. I don’t see it on the Givenergy website yet. Where did you see this?

I think they had this on display at the Solar and Storage Live exhibition.

 

[David T]

I'm waiting on a Gen 2 Givenergy 9.5kWh battery, ordered in June/July for £5,500 they are coming through now, but NOT being supplied with the necessary specific cables! I think your price is a bit high, though demand has probably increased since I ordered.

 

[Zilla91]

Does anyone know if the Givenergy app has any functionality to forecast solar generation and top up the battery appropriately overnight to the correct level?

 

[browellm]

Does anyone know if the Givenergy app has any functionality to forecast solar generation and top up the battery appropriately overnight to the correct level?

It's in development, but it's also possible to do it through third party integration with HA/Node Red etc.

 

[Zilla91]

Oooh, could you send over the docs for NodeRed please?

 

[94jdh]

Rumours of 7-8k for the kit (13.5kWh battery and inverter combo)

 

[browellm]

Oooh, could you send over the docs for NodeRed please?

Afraid I don't use NodeRed myself (HA here), but this fellow seems to have something going GitHub - cdevereu/GivEnergy