Price drop on car - Resetting the price on FSD - Anyone else feeling this is highly disingenuous on Tesla's part?

[EV forever]

Hello OP,

My understanding is that as long as you order the same model within a certain timeframe you don't lose your deposit. You may want to check with your Sales Advisor.

Yes, you are correct. We allowed the order to get cancelled automatically fully expecting to lose the deposit. A Tesla sales advisor called us a couple of days later to ask why we were cancelling and to tell us about inventory cars meeting our specifications with significant price drop - we explained that we wanted to wait for HW4. She immediately stated that they had no timeline for HW4, but they would hold our deposit for use when we were ready to place the order. That was nice of them to do so.

Also, Tesla is definitely cleaning out current inventory for both Model X and Model S - there is no option on the configurator to place a new order. The 'order' button directly takes you to inventory vehicles only. Hopefully, there is no price increase when the order option opens up again, but it is a risk we are willing to take.

Nope, no birds were shot, no accidents occurred, no nasty looks from passerbys, no horns were blown. And my passenger didn't really realize that I had it on.

I'm not saying that it is this way all the time, but this was an example that it can be this way some of the time. You are not guaranteed to die if you turn it on.

Most of the time people freak out if the car does something that they wouldn't do. Same type of thing occurs when driving with other people. Same thing happens when teaching kids how to drive. I've found that in most cases, all you have to do is just give it a chance and it will quickly recover itself.

There's one section of road near me, where the main road goes straight but both mine and my wife's car invariably turns on the turn signal and tries to turn left. Sure, I can panic and override it. But I also know that if I let it do it, it just wiggles the car a little bit and then turns off the signal. There was bridge construction next to it and I think that the road geometry doesn't exactly line up and the car tries to compensate. But there are many situations where if you just let the car drive and not override it, it will end up doing the right thing.
My reaction times are a lot faster than my wife's. I'll often let the car do it's thing for longer than she does. She then learns that she can indeed trust it. She still keeps her hand on the wheel and the hands turn as the wheel does. I stopped that a long time ago and mine is usually only holding the bottom right of the wheel and I let the wheel slip through my hands when it turns.

FSD takes getting used to. I've had my Model 3 for 5 years and lived through the incremental upgrades and have gotten used to how the car drives. I can generally predict where the car is going to have issues and either override or most commonly press the accelerator so that the ride is nice and comfortable.

I really wish that Tesla would have a staged "Learning how to exist with FSD" experience. As so many people are going from complete self-driving to the FSD beta experience, it can be overwhelming when you are expecting perfection. Even when FSD is released, there will still be LOTS of complaints just because the car doesn't drive the way they do.

It's been interesting listening to the complaints over the years, one of the best is that the car doesn't move to the left of the left lane when passing trucks, because that's the way "I do it". Just because you do it doesn't mean that it's the right way. The right way is to stay in the middle of the lane. If you are in the middle lane and drift to the left when passing a truck, you encroach on the car in the far left lane.

It is amazing how similar our driving habits are. My husband is a lot more willing to let the car FSD do its thing like you are on local roads. The car almost always makes the correct decision, sometimes with some hesitation, but it is always safety first. He is fine with the car taking more conservative approach to driving. I am a lot more impatient and will intervene much earlier - often to press the accelerator because the car is being too slow. The longest drive we have done is 65 miles entirely on FSD with 1 minor intervention (pressing accelerator as the car was too slow on the on-ramp to the freeway due to construction) - this was all the way from the driveway of our house to the parking lot of our destination.

I had not intended with my post to initiate a long debate regarding the attributes of FSD when I posted my complaint about the pricing having changed since our order. But it is interesting to read this thread and realize how many folks either don't understand the huge benefits of FSD or just criticize without personal experience. I cannot imagine any future car without FSD on, and I would rather get the current top of the line hardware even if it is not entirely utilized for some time. We also decided against subscription for FSD as we do plan to keep this car for a long time.

 

[MP3Mike]

Also, Tesla is definitely cleaning out current inventory for both Model X and Model S - there is no option on the configurator to place a new order. The 'order' button directly takes you to inventory vehicles only. Hopefully, there is no price increase when the order option opens up again, but it is a risk we are willing to take.

That would be a definite sign that they were planning to raise the price, but for both the S&X the order but takes me to the design page to place a custom order...

 

[ewoodrick]

It is amazing how similar our driving habits are. My husband is a lot more willing to let the car FSD do its thing like you are on local roads. The car almost always makes the correct decision, sometimes with some hesitation, but it is always safety first. He is fine with the car taking more conservative approach to driving. I am a lot more impatient and will intervene much earlier - often to press the accelerator because the car is being too slow. The longest drive we have done is 65 miles entirely on FSD with 1 minor intervention (pressing accelerator as the car was too slow on the on-ramp to the freeway due to construction) - this was all the way from the driveway of our house to the parking lot of our destination.

I had not intended with my post to initiate a long debate regarding the attributes of FSD when I posted my complaint about the pricing having changed since our order. But it is interesting to read this thread and realize how many folks either don't understand the huge benefits of FSD or just criticize without personal experience. I cannot imagine any future car without FSD on, and I would rather get the current top of the line hardware even if it is not entirely utilized for some time. We also decided against subscription for FSD as we do plan to keep this car for a long time.

I don't tend to call pressing the accelerator "intervention" just a little helping. After all, you don't turn FSD off to do it.

I've found that if I provide some accelerator then FSD tends to drive pretty awesome. As you mentioned, FSD errs on the side of safety, and using the accelerator tends to, well, help the car drive more normal.

It's always interesting on Internet forums to listen to the naysayers. They often rank up there with the flat world folks with their veracity based on bunk.

It's amazing how we have both driven significant distances using something that doesn't work.

 

[Supcom]

I don't tend to call pressing the accelerator "intervention" just a little helping. After all, you don't turn FSD off to do it.

I've found that if I provide some accelerator then FSD tends to drive pretty awesome. As you mentioned, FSD errs on the side of safety, and using the accelerator tends to, well, help the car drive more normal.

It's always interesting on Internet forums to listen to the naysayers. They often rank up there with the flat world folks with their veracity based on bunk.

It's amazing how we have both driven significant distances using something that doesn't work.

Using the accelerator is definitely an intervention. You are essentially bypassing all of FSD's decision making except for steering the car along the planned route. While this is often appropriate when FSD balks unnecessarily, it is a pretty major intervention and is likely recorded by the car as an FSD issue.

 

[2101Guy]

Using the accelerator is definitely an intervention. You are essentially bypassing all of FSD's decision making except for steering the car along the planned route. While this is often appropriate when FSD balks unnecessarily, it is a pretty major intervention and is likely recorded by the car as an FSD issue.

THANK you for pointing this out. Tired of so many making excuses for failures of the technology. Elon himself has said MANY times "car will drive itself.." "any human input is error.."



And still, phanboyz continue to make excuses. "just a little helping"

NO..its an INTERVENTION

UGH

 

[ewoodrick]

THANK you for pointing this out. Tired of so many making excuses for failures of the technology. Elon himself has said MANY times "car will drive itself.." "any human input is error.."



And still, phanboyz continue to make excuses. "just a little helping"

NO..its an INTERVENTION

UGH

And the car WILL drive itself. I just get a little impatient with the car.

The same with my wife. If I had an accelerator in the passenger position, I'd be pressing it as well. Did she fail at driving, no, just not my preference.
Ever been in a NYC taxi? Yea they often get from point A to point B, but OMG, they can scare the crap out of you. Just not my preference.

And yes, Elon has said that about FSD. But this isn't FSD, it's FSD beta.

 

[EV forever]

That would be a definite sign that they were planning to raise the price, but for both the S&X the order but takes me to the design page to place a custom order...

My mistake, although It may be just a bug in the system. I just tried it again - turns out the different 'order now' buttons on the Model X page take you to different locations. The one on the top of the page takes you directly to the inventory. The 'order now' buttons further down on the page take you to the custom order page. Guess I should not read too much into that.

 

[gtg465x]

I wonder if Tesla will increase the price of FSD with HW4. If not, I wonder if they will reduce the price for HW3 owners since they aren’t planning on retrofits. Doesn’t seem fair to charge HW3 owners the same price for an inferior product.

 

[aataskin]

I wonder if Tesla will increase the price of FSD with HW4. If not, I wonder if they will reduce the price for HW3 owners since they aren’t planning on retrofits. Doesn’t seem fair to charge HW3 owners the same price for an inferior product.

It's only an inferior product if HW4 results in tangible improvements. If you get a car with all of the parking assists still greyed out, still FSD beta, etc., then it's not a better product. It just has higher res cameras, that's all.

 

[ewoodrick]

I wonder if Tesla will increase the price of FSD with HW4. If not, I wonder if they will reduce the price for HW3 owners since they aren’t planning on retrofits. Doesn’t seem fair to charge HW3 owners the same price for an inferior product.

At this point, they will be the same product. It's not as if they have a perfectly functioning FSD completed and are only waiting on the new hardware. It will be the same product for quite awhile.

 

[boonedocks]

There is an assumption in the math within this thread: that assumption is that the subscription rate will not increase over the next 6.25 years....

That said...I agree with others: drop that FSD from the purchase altogether.

Quickest way Tesla will have me cancel the subscription is to raise the price.

 

[gtg465x]

It's only an inferior product if HW4 results in tangible improvements. If you get a car with all of the parking assists still greyed out, still FSD beta, etc., then it's not a better product. It just has higher res cameras, that's all.

I don’t think they would be putting in a radar, higher res cameras, and more powerful processor if they hadn’t already figured out that they will help. We’ll have to wait and see, but I expect there to be some small improvements in FSDb performance right from the beginning, with differences growing over time. Wouldn’t be surprised if the cars make quicker decisions during turns due to the more powerful processor, which is one of the main complaints about FSDb.

 

[ewoodrick]

It's only an inferior product if HW4 results in tangible improvements. If you get a car with all of the parking assists still greyed out, still FSD beta, etc., then it's not a better product. It just has higher res cameras, that's all.

When are you going to understand that HW4 and re-enabling the proximity indicators don't have anything to do with each other. You will get them back without HW4.

Of course if they are such a big requirement and you have to have them and you don't have them today, then it's time to dell your car, as it will never have HW4.

 

[ewoodrick]

I don’t think they would be putting in a radar, higher res cameras, and more powerful processor if they hadn’t already figured out that they will help. We’ll have to wait and see, but I expect there to be some small improvements in FSDb performance right from the beginning, with differences growing over time. Wouldn’t be surprised if the cars make quicker decisions during turns due to the more powerful processor, which is one of the main complaints about FSDb.

We don't know for sure of the RADAR is going into the car and if will be used for driving. There's just a LOT of conjecture by the folks who believe that RADAR is required, as well as their desire for "I told you so"

More powerful process doesn't really have any correlation to any requirements. Before HW3 shipped, they were working on HW4. It takes a number of months to get something like the HW3 board designed. tested and out the door. State of the art in processors had already advanced significantly.

Higher res cameras, well, I think that people may end up being surprised how they are used when the information becomes public. Higher resolution data isn't what you always want, and both the AI team and Elon have confirmed that. Doubling the resolution increases the data by 4 times and the amount of processing by a lot more. Look at some of the classification pictures that Tesla has posted, they really don't seem to be having issues classifying things.

 

[gtg465x]

We don't know for sure of the RADAR is going into the car and if will be used for driving. There's just a LOT of conjecture by the folks who believe that RADAR is required, as well as their desire for "I told you so"

More powerful process doesn't really have any correlation to any requirements. Before HW3 shipped, they were working on HW4. It takes a number of months to get something like the HW3 board designed. tested and out the door. State of the art in processors had already advanced significantly.

Higher res cameras, well, I think that people may end up being surprised how they are used when the information becomes public. Higher resolution data isn't what you always want, and both the AI team and Elon have confirmed that. Doubling the resolution increases the data by 4 times and the amount of processing by a lot more. Look at some of the classification pictures that Tesla has posted, they really don't seem to be having issues classifying things.

I didn’t think the radar was in question any more after all of the teardowns and FCC documents last week.

But again, why would Tesla go through the trouble and extra cost of upgrading everything if they hadn’t already proven internally that there is a benefit? Surely if they built a HW4 prototype with more powerful processors, better cameras, and a radar, and found in their internal testing that there was no benefit over HW3, then they wouldn’t want to start shipping more expensive components for no reason.

Anyways, it’s not really worth arguing too much about at this point. Sounds like HW4 will be shipping soon, and then we’ll know whether or not it performs better.

My question still stands though… IF HW4 performs better (it’s theoretical, not looking to argue further about whether it will or will not), should the FSD price be reduced for HW3 owners?

 

[ewoodrick]

I didn’t think the radar was in question any more after all of the teardowns and FCC documents last week.

But again, why would Tesla go through the trouble and extra cost of upgrading everything if they hadn’t already proven internally that there is a benefit? Surely if they built a HW4 prototype with more powerful processors, better cameras, and a radar, and found in their internal testing that there was no benefit over HW3, then they wouldn’t want to start shipping more expensive components for no reason.

Anyways, it’s not really worth arguing too much about at this point. Sounds like HW4 will be shipping soon, and then we’ll know whether or not it performs better.

Why does a FCC filing mean that it will be deployed in all cars for FSD?

It could by for determining the occupancy of a vehicle, i.e. no baby left behind.
It could be used on the utility sites, to watch for fires.
Could even be for a lower power Sentry mode.

It could even be just because they had a team working on it.

Just like HW3 isn't using all of it's sensor inputs now, no telling if HW4 will.

 

[AndrewZ]

The Phoenix High-resolution Radar is listed under the AP4 configuration as Forward Radar.

Now that doesn't mean it'll immediately roll out, just like the cameras are not immediately rolling out on new S/X that apparently have the AP4 internals. I have a feeling Tesla is already setting up for charging $$$ for hardware upgrades down the line, building in the internals with lacking sensors...

 

[aataskin]

I don’t think they would be putting in a radar, higher res cameras, and more powerful processor if they hadn’t already figured out that they will help. We’ll have to wait and see, but I expect there to be some small improvements in FSDb performance right from the beginning, with differences growing over time. Wouldn’t be surprised if the cars make quicker decisions during turns due to the more powerful processor, which is one of the main complaints about FSDb.

By that logic they wouldn't have dropped the radar back in 2021 and proximity sensors in 2022 if they didn't have a solution that works without them. Except they didn't have such a solution, and still don't have it, hence the rumour about the radar coming back later this year. You see, this is the Tesla way. Elon has a vision, and makes business decisions based on it, all the AI team has to do is implement it. Or fail to implement it when it's simply not feasible.

 

[gtg465x]

Edit: Pointless to have this debate now. I’ll wait until HW4 is announced and shipping.

 

[aataskin]

Edit: Pointless to have this debate now. I’ll wait until HW4 is announced and shipping.

Update Vehicle Firmware to Improve Certain FSD Beta Driving Operations | Tesla Support

Tesla has issued a voluntary recall on certain Model S, Model 3, Model X and Model Y vehicles that have installed or pending installation of software that contains the Full Self-Driving (FSD) Beta feature. This recall affects only US and CA vehicles. Affected vehicles were identified based on...

www.tesla.com

"Until the software version containing the fix is available, we have paused the rollout of FSD Beta to all who have opted-in but have not yet received a software version containing FSD Beta."

Doesn't sound like increasing the price of FSD is on the agenda at the moment. As a matter of fact, if this ruling forces them to first develop a reliable FSD before being able to sell it to customers then this is the best thing that has happened to Tesla in the last six years. Maybe they will scale back the offering for the time being and roll out some less glamorous but pretty useful stuff like parking assists? Project Vision USS