Project Better Place

[dpeilow]

Also, the onus should be on the supplier in this deal to ensure you never get a battery below a decent minimum range. That would be known at the time you take out the contract. So you could avoid the scenario of having a dying battery around year 5 in the car's life altogether. It will be interesting to see what the subscription charge is, though.

 

[malcolm]

My expectation was they would stick with just Israel and Denmark as proof of concept before approaching other countries.

I agree.

Standardised/modular battery packs was something we discussed a while ago in relation to commonality across Whitestar and Bluestar.

Perhaps GE can get in on the modular pack design?
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/10/22/ge-doubles-down-on-a123-in-for-55-million/

And of course, modular packs can happen with or without swap stations.

I do wonder if some future problem will lead to Tesla requiring all/any swapping to be carried out by Tesla-trained-and-certified third parties.

Does this point toward a form of battery dealerships?

 

[Michael]

We don't need battery swapping or rapid recharging stations in the near term! I believe that BEV vehicles will get a great start just focusing on individuals that can afford them, have low daily commuting requirements, and can recharge at home.

Once BEV vehicles become more prevalent, then it would seem to be more appropriate to begin establishing the long term infrastructure. Personally I think the inventory requirements and variability, and equipment repair needs for swapping stations are a significant problem that will push the swap cost much higher than just following a rapid charging station path.

 

[Palpatine]

We don't need battery swapping or rapid recharging stations in the near term! I believe that BEV vehicles will get a great start just focusing on individuals that can afford them, have low daily commuting requirements, and can recharge at home.

Once BEV vehicles become more prevalent, then it would seem to be more appropriate to begin establishing the long term infrastructure. Personally I think the inventory requirements and variability, and equipment repair needs for swapping stations are a significant problem that will push the swap cost much higher than just following a rapid charging station path.

Having some early electric cars out there, with early adopters, will help to get people to realize that 200 miles of range is more than enough.
I don't think that battery swapping locations would be used that much.

I think people will be surprised just far 200 miles of EV range actually covers. Because of gasoline and quick refills, we never really monitor our daily miles driven.

I have been monitoring my miles closely for the past 3 months with my Hymotion Prius (PHEV). I reset my trip B odometer every morning with a full 5 kwh lithium battery in the back of my Prius. Typically I get about 30 miles of electric boost for my Prius with a full battery. For most days, that is enough. Luckily with the Hymotion Prius the gas engine takes away the concern for running out of battery juice. But I still prefer to always have Hymotion energy boosting the system for my 99.9+ mpg average.

So when a Tesla Roadster or Model S is able to get 200 miles from a full battery (or even 150 miles) and I start each day with a standard full battery from home, that is just easy to get through the day with zero concerns about a refill. Even a heavy day of driving won't use 150 miles for 95% (or more) of the people.

For people who drive more, then a PHEV like a GM Volt or Hymotion Prius would be appropriate.

In reality, I get about 60-80 miles per day of Hymotion energy because I can plug-in at work. So a full discharge in the morning and recharge (5 1/2 hours at work) provides plenty of range that I never enter standard Prius mode.

 

[Rheazombi]

I think all of this is good. I agree that there are some concerns and kinks to work out, and personally I would never pay for a subscription like that, but I like the idea that after 10+ years of waiting, all this stuff is coming together, and I can see that people are trying to make EVs appealing to the masses.

As long as these Better Places can be used by someone without a subscription, perhaps for a higher fee, I would love them. I will continue to use city-provided chargers/my garage/portable charger when need be, but love the idea of being able to pull into a strategically placed PBP on a 200 mile+ journey.

 

[dpeilow]

Better Place goes Canadian with Ontario electric car partnership - AutoblogGreen

The electric car deal-making juggernaut that is Better Place is staking its claim on a new territory. BP representatives are in Ontario this morning and, along with Ontario Premier McGuinty, announced a new partnership to advance the cause of EVs - what they're calling a Car 2.0 model - in the Great White North.

I read this and for a split second thought

 

[vfx]

Battery swap video:

YouTube - Project Better Place

 

[TEG]

 

[Bradleybang]

that video confirms what has been in the recess of my thoughts for the electric future.

Swap and or charge the battery. Why do we need to own the battery in the car?

As Elon stated in the town hall meeting, when you design a car from sctratch you are not tied to adapting a vehicle whose original desing was to hold a gas tank.

I think you build an electric to swap the battery for intercity travel and charge for intracity travel.

When I buy the car I dont pay for the battery but get charged $8 per day ($2,920 per year and $14,600 over its 5 year life) for its use and I have to charge it. It will only go 75+- miles.

If I need a range of 220 miles then I pay $25 per day ($9,125 annual and $45,625 over its 5 year life).

If I have a 75 mile battery and I need to swap at public station to a fully charged battery
$7 for 75mile charged battery swap
$20 for 220mile charged battery swap

Examples

In my daily commute I would keep 75mile battery and charge it at home. I would only pay $8 a day.

On occasion I drive from Oakaland to San Jose. I could charge at home, drive to San Jose, swap for another 75miler= $7 and drive home.

The swap (refill) time would be less than a gas station.

If I decide to go to tahoe. I go to a swap station and get 220miler = $20 plus now I am paying $25 per day while that battery sits in my car.


just a thought....

 

[domenick]

Every time I see the battery swapping video I thnk of all the car washes I see out of order. It's as automatic a thought as when I hear someone say, "Why should I own the battery?" and think, whether you own the battery or not someone will have to pay for it and that someone isn't Shai Agassi.
Seriously, as far as I can tell, the "Better Place" model is about making money for a middle man. It's about leveraging money (including a lot of public money) to pay for charging infrastructure, battery swapping stations, and of course, all those batteries. I think it only makes sense if you want to add an unnessesary layer of cost to the electricfication process. That extra cost will flow from our pockets to those of Agassi and the original backers.
Of course, it's possible I'm missing something.

 

[doug]

Mapping a Global Plan for Car Charging Stations - NYTimes.com

 

[dpeilow]

Better Place announces 19 "Vision Partners" (aka early buyers) in Israel - AutoblogGreen

 

[doug]

Glad people are questioning this concept:

Better Place battery swapping plan comes under fire - Autobloggreen

 

[graham]

I agree that there are a bunch of problems with battery swapping. Premature standardization on specific types/locations/sizes of batteries at this stage of rapid changes will do more harm than good I think.

Although I think "rapid charging" is mostly vaporware at this point too.

I will happily take advantage of whichever technology becomes reality and is useful to me, but I have hopes that battery capacity will increase to the point of trumping them all. At the present rates we should have 750 mile range EVs in 10-12 years if a new technology does not come along sooner. I wonder if enough EVs will get sold in the next decade with present technology to make Better Place and others viable before they are obsoleted?

 

[vfx]

Some well reasoned comments (for once!).

VS High powered charge stations...

Building and maintaining the swap stations will be a big chore. How much land will be needed for a warehouse of batteries? (think tire store)

If every car has a battery and every station has 200 batteries on the shelf and there are 2000(0) battery swap stations in the US that makes for a very happy battery maker (And a strain on Lith supplies?).

The limitation of one battery shape is the biggest problem. At this point they can't even standardize the plugs.

All this, and the swap stations will probably offer high powered charges as well.

IF PBP is a closed loop then it might work.

 

[Palpatine]

I question whether people will be battery swapping much at all. In my experience with my EVs, I cannot imagine needing it anywhere in my regular daily driving.

If electric cars just have 100 miles of range, and the driver starts each day with a full battery from his garage, how many times per year will you need a battery swap? Twice?

If there just a regular 220 volt 40 amp charging station in parking lots or parking garages, that would double the daily range of most people. They would leave work with a full battery also.

I think most of these electric cars could top off their batteries with a simple 110 volt 20 amp outlet. 8-9 hours at work would likely provide another 30-40 miles of range to most midsize electric cars.

The perceived need for "battery swap" is based on the outdated concept that we refuel once per week with gasoline about every 300 miles. So we are trained to think that refueling requires stopping somewhere to get fuel within 10 minutes.

With an electric vehicle, you are starting each day with a full tank of electricity. So the odds of getting below 25% to 50% are really quite low on any given day.

 

[doug]

Right, that's why I think it's way too early to be trying to build either fast chargers or battery swap stations.

Let the early adopters get their BEVs and PHEVs (for which home charging eliminates the chicken and egg problem, and gas stations eliminate the range problem).

Build parking meter style charging stations (both 120 and 240 V), scaling roll out with the number of EVs out there. When building new parking structures, pay the incremental cost of supplying power near the parking spots so that charging stations can be easily added as needed.

Implement the >100 kW charging and the battery swaps within competitive racing where their use is more appropriate and the engineering cycles are faster. Let that refined technology filter to the masses when/if it makes sense.

 

[mpt]

I spoke to the people behind Charge Point and the resellers in New York; it IS chicken and egg; and they’re only looking at 120-240V charging today and for the foreseeable future.

Getting critical mass is the challenge; the Parking garages don’t see the financial return soon enough, the idea of an NY tenant choosing them over another garage because they have charging isn’t there yet.

The best bet for streets of charging stations on every lamp post lays with the local townships who have available cash for green projects and a desire to shape traffic by offering free charge stations with parking in town or at rail feeder stations outside of town… one cleaver feature of the ChargePoint system has is the ability to pre-book a charging point in town at a certain time so, you drive in, park up and go to see a show.

If you want to help the charging idea get going, the best advice I’ve received is:
1. Badger your local township
2. Get on the ChargePoint.net website and get a charge card… whether you have a car, bike or nothing electric at all; show the investors there may be a market!

I wrote up my notes at PT

As for battery swap… I’m not sure I’m ready to share my $30k battery with anyone yet… mine will be looked after… will the exchange one be?

 

[doug]

I spoke to the people behind Charge Point and the resellers in New York; it IS chicken and egg; and they’re only looking at 120-240V charging today and for the foreseeable future.

I don't disagree with you. I didn't elaborate since I figure I've said the same thing a few times before. Clearly, home charging doesn't immediately make EVs a viable option for those of which home charging is unavailable.

Given the cost of EVs, the early adopters will likely be those with home garages. Those buyers do not need to wait for public charging stations for their cars to be useful, thus no "chicken and egg" problem as I prefer to define it. They will, however, create a demand for public charging since that expands the functionality of their vehicles. As more public charging becomes available, those who don't live in houses will be more able to accommodate driving an EV, etc...

At any rate, my point for this thread is that battery swaps are a solution in search of a problem. And that problem will be solved in the near future with REEVs. And the battery swap solution creates its own problems. And it's expensive. And likely to become quickly obsolete, else force EV development to stagnate in order to amortize their cost. And...

 

[mpt]

Actually, I suspect we agree. I need to re-phrase the Chicken and egg comment; the ChargePoint people are talking to garage owners who say that they won't install ChargePoints until there are enough tenants asking for them; of course the tenants aren't asking because they're assuming that they're out of luck and can't have a bev because they don't have anywhere to charge it. It'll take a few garages to take a leap of faith to trigger the ensuing arms race that'll eventually see garages fighting to win business by having the best and cheapest charging options. I doubt many home charge owners will demand on-street or garage charging; with a 200 mile range I can't think of an example where I'd need to re-charge away from home.

But, back to the swappable debate: todays news from MIT may (hopefully) put the question to bed; the talk is of modified Li-ion cells that can support better ion flow and charge in seconds… with enough available power of course.

If I can charge my 200-mile range car in a couple of minutes using electricity; a commodity freely available at many locations, isn't that it, done, finished, pack up; no more hydrogen debate?

Same story:

» Lithium-Ion batteries get supercharged Dvorak Uncensored: General interest observations and true web-log.

AFP: Battery breakthrough promises phone, car revolution

Superfast-charging batteries? Whoa there, MIT • Register Hardware