Pure BEV Dogma

[ecarfan]

The Volt engine and inverter are "replaced" at 150K miles?

 

[Jeff N]

The Volt engine and inverter are "replaced" at 150K miles?

Um, no. The coolant for the engine, inverter, and battery loops will be replaced for the first time when I get my 3rd oil change when my odometer hits around 150,000 miles.

 

[ecarfan]

Um, no. The coolant for the engine, inverter, and battery loops will be replaced for the first time when I get my 3rd oil change when my odometer hits around 150,000 miles.

My apologies, my error, I did not read your post carefully enough.

Engage brain before typing...

 

[mknox]

Just spotted this Hybrid over in another part of the forums :tongue:

 

[scaesare]

Just spotted this Hybrid over in another part of the forums :tongue:

It's an EREV!

On another note.. was at the Rockville Service Center on Tues, and the Washington DC EV "club" has a flyer they put out with relevant info in EV's on the market. In it they categorized the Volt as a hybrid...

 

[JRP3]

Just spotted this Hybrid over in another part of the forums :tongue:

Need to put the generator in the trunk or passenger seat to make it a hybrid.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

It's an EREV!

On another note.. was at the Rockville Service Center on Tues, and the Washington DC EV "club" has a flyer they put out with relevant info in EV's on the market. In it they categorized the Volt as a hybrid...

I would agree that is an REEV from a Euro-perspective or EREV if you don't think Volt mangled that concept. If one were to take the generator with them.

And I think that picture really speaks volumes of what the difference between a plug-in hybrid (as we usually know them) and a range extended EV is. It is exactly that. And it is useful to make the distinction between a small engine generating electricity (REEV/EREV) and a drivetrain that incorporates ICE (e.g. PHEV).

 

[JRP3]

The distinction your are describing is already differentiated as series hybrid and parallel hybrid. The i3 is a series plugin hybrid and the Volt is a series/parallel plugin hybrid, since at different times it operates in either mode.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

The distinction your are describing is already differentiated as series hybrid and parallel hybrid. The i3 is a series plugin hybrid and the Volt is a series/parallel plugin hybrid, since at different times it operates in either mode.

A loved child has many names. Series hybrid is, of course, also correct, as is your characterization of the Volt.

At least in Europe it is very common already to call series hybrids as having range extenders. Hence REEV has much more in common with the user and manufacturer parlance, though, than series or parallel which is quite technical compared to the simple concept of range extender. I'm also game calling them just EVs with range extender, because to me that is very descriptive of, say, the BMW i3 with range extender. Calling them just hybrids often misses the point, because they invoke the thought of a Prius or such, and series hybrid is a bit technical. I welcome these abbreviations, because they serve a purpose.

As Wikipedia puts it: "Series hybrids have also been referred to as extended-range electric vehicles (EREV)[5] or range-extended electric vehicles (REEV)..." That's a pretty good way of describing the current situation. It is the reality of the language evolving around these concepts. Fighting it seems pointless.

 

[JRP3]

What seems pointless is creating new, misleading terms for vehicles that will likely soon enough become irrelevant.

 

[rsquared99]

I check this thread about once a year to see if anyone has anything new to offer. See you next year!

 

[Yggdrasill]

At least in Europe it is very common already to call series hybrids as having range extenders.

Don't speak for all of Europe. Here, they're called usually just called hybrids, or "ladehybrid", literally "chargable hybrids" or more freely translated "plug-in hybrids". I have also seen them referred to as some term in the REEV/EVER -genre, but not very often (most often by the importers and dealers).

This is to some degree an effect of how they are treated in the tax-system. EVs are incentivized to a very large degree. Plug-in hybrids and other hybrids are incentivized equally and to a much lesser degree than EVs.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Don't speak for all of Europe. Here, they're called usually just called hybrids, or "ladehybrid", literally "chargable hybrids" or more freely translated "plug-in hybrids". I have also seen them referred to as some term in the REEV/EVER -genre, but not very often (most often by the importers and dealers).

This is to some degree an effect of how they are treated in the tax-system. EVs are incentivized to a very large degree. Plug-in hybrids and other hybrids are incentivized equally and to a much lesser degree than EVs.

To clarify, I am speaking of how e.g. Audi and BMW refer to them, related to their A1 e-tron concept and BMW i3 EV for example respectively, both of which are series hybrids, and I think that is very influential in Europe overall. It also makes a lot of sense, in my opinion, to separate such cars from more "traditional" plug-in hybrids (i.e. parallels with very limited EV range).

Here are English and German examples, they use the word Range Extender even in German:
https://www.audi.co.uk/audi-innovation/concept-cars/a1-e-tron.html
http://www.bmw.de/de/neufahrzeuge/bmw-i/i3/2013/antrieb.html

My experience has been that plug-in hybrids or hybrids in general are used to refer to parallel hybrids in the parlance of European manufacturers and marketing, including how Audi, BMW and e.g Porsche call those cars - not series hybrids like BMW i3 REx and A1 e-tron concept. Series hybrids are usually just called EVs with Range Extender by European manufacturers and I think this rhetoric has also found support from the media and masses.

EREV as an abbreviation is very American, of course, due to the Volt. EREV is also controversial, because Volt isn't a pure example of the range extender idea. REEV or EV with RE or REx or somesuch, is more in line with the European wording in my experience. Europe is not so big on these three, four capital letter abbreviations anyway, they are very American too.

Is BMW i3 with Range Extender really called a plug-in hybrid (or similar local wording) commonly in Norway? I mean, sure in technical terms it is a plug-in hybrid, but I am surprised to hear if that is how it is spoken of. BMW i3 REx is very different from your average plug-in hybrid on the market.

Europe is diverse, of course, as is language. It is interesting to see and document how these evolve - and how cultures and localities clash on great forums such as this one. It is very nice to see all these perspectives come together. Very enlighting. People will have many opinions too, naturally, and rightly so.

 

[brianman]

Don't speak for all of Europe. Here, they're called usually just called hybrids, or "ladehybrid", literally "chargable hybrids" or more freely translated "plug-in hybrids". I have also seen them referred to as some term in the REEV/EVER -genre, but not very often (most often by the importers and dealers).

How unsurprising. Thanks for the data point.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

How unsurprising. Thanks for the data point.

Evolution of language, indeed, is interesting. No doubt, studying the use of language is a very imprecise science. I know a lot of people here prefer some engineering or even ideological precision on this - and that's fair of course - while others are more interested in the practice of things. So take the following from the latter perspective.

The problem with anecdotal evidence is that it often ignores various realities. Case in point here: BMW has decided not to bring BMW i3 REx to Norway yet. There really isn't a pure REEV on the market there at the moment, yet we are talking REEV and Norway, which results in a bit of misnormer. Language often follows what is available and, as of yet, the one thing that really describes the Range Extender idea well, isn't in Norway.

Part of the problemacy is that Volt's attempted EREV positioning is marketing talk and inaccurate. I know that many of us actually agree on that. It resonates a lot in the comments on this forum as well and makes for some misunderstandings when some talk of the Volt and others talk of cars like the BMW i3 instead. That doesn't mean the Volt example applies to all such cars, though.

Volt sort of introduced a useful concept and abbreviation - and European manufacturers introduced concepts quite near that, that have been meshed together in use - but actually somewhat misrepresented it. Things like A1 e-tron concept and BMW i3 REx are quite different from usual PHEVs, calling them e.g. REEVs makes quite a bit more sense IMO. The Volt is a bit of an in-between, yet EREV and REEV seem to have become synonyms on some level, which - I agree - has its inaccuracies.

It will be interesting to see how e.g. Norwegian EV association eventually labels things like BMW i3 REx, where it really is just a separate option available on an otherwise pure EV car. Will it group them with a plug-in Prius or not, or will it introduce granularity akin to REEV or something else? So far their stories on the BMW i3 have resonated my point of talk about an EV with a range extender, which is quite different from the usual talk of plug-in hybrids.

But my question to Yggdrasill remains, what cars are you referring to when saying REEVs are more often called just plug-in hybrids (in Norwegian) in Norway? Do you include the BMW i3 REx? Is the BMW i3 REx just one more plug-in hybrid in Norwegian EV talk or is it being separated in any way?

I am actually genuinely interested, as so far it seems to me the Range Extender is being treated separately on various European markets (e.g. UK and Germany), compared to the "old" plug-in hybrid. I think a lot of places have on some level split the market into 1) hybrids, 2) plug-in hybrids, 3) EVs with REs and then 4) EVs - or some similar labelling, no matter how inaccurate that sounds to some purists here.

Personally I find the separation useful even if it is technologically inaccurate and somewhat subjective. In common talk, hybrids are cars like the old Prius, plug-in hybrids are cars like A3 e-tron or BMW i8, EVs with REs are cars like BMW i3 REx and pure EVs or BEVs are cars like Tesla and BMW i3 without REx... I think this is the reality on the ground in many places, but of course Norway may be different?

In any case, I think it is clear the EV with Range Extender wording and concept is gaining popularity at least amongst the European auto industry in various languages here. The implementations are more pure series hybrids than what EREV has been standing for in the U.S. and the industry is marketing the REx as a separate component or even option, not so much a part of the drivetrain. Some in the U.S., obviously, has been approaching the EV question from a bit different perspective overall and that clash shows in a place like this when some may criticize U.S. use of EREV while others talk of the Euro use of REEV, which, while somewhat related, are not exactly the same thing at the moment.

 

[Yggdrasill]

But my question to Yggdrasill remains, what cars are you referring to when saying REEVs are more often called just plug-in hybrids (in Norwegian) in Norway? Do you include the BMW i3 REx? Is the BMW i3 REx just one more plug-in hybrid in Norwegian EV talk or is it being separated in any way?

The Karma, the Ampera, the Outlander PHEV, etc are all called plug-in hybrids/ "ladehybrid". The i3 REX is completely unknown to almost everyone, so I can hardly remember having seen any article referring to it in any way. But browsing some of the reviews and articles on the i3, it is sometimes mentioned in a sentence or two. Like: "The i3 can also come with a range extender, a motorcycle engine which charges the battery while you drive, but this changes the car from an electric car to a hybrid, like the Ampera, and adds $15,000 in taxes to the price, so it's not relevant for Norway."

When the government talks about altering the taxation model for plug-in hybrids, it seems very likely that all vehicles that get their propulsive energy from both a battery that can be charged from the grid and an ICE will be treated more or less equally. Maybe you will get some adjustment for all-electric range, but I wouldn't count on it. The most relevant incentive that has been discussed is halved VAT, whereas all-electric cars get 0% VAT. Most likely this incentive would apply to both the cars like the plug-in Prius and cars like the i3 REX.

I am actually genuinely interested, as so far it seems to me the Range Extender is being treated separately on various European markets (e.g. UK and Germany), compared to the "old" plug-in hybrid. I think a lot of places have on some level split the market into 1) hybrids, 2) plug-in hybrids, 3) EVs with REs and then 4) EVs - or some similar labelling, no matter how inaccurate that sounds to some purists here.

Personally I find the separation useful even if it is technologically inaccurate and somewhat subjective. In common talk, hybrids are cars like the old Prius, plug-in hybrids are cars like A3 e-tron or BMW i8, EVs with REs are cars like BMW i3 REx and pure EVs or BEVs are cars like Tesla and BMW i3 without REx... I think this is the reality on the ground in many places, but of course Norway may be different?

We don't really have the 3rd classification here. We have old tech hybrids, like the Prius, then we have new tech plug-in hybrids, like the Ampera, Outlander PHEV, i8, V60 PHEV, Karma, etc, and then we have electric cars, like the Model S, Leaf, i-MiEV, i3 (naturally without REX), Zoe, Soul EV, e-Golf, e-Up, etc.

In any case, I think it is clear the EV with Range Extender wording and concept is gaining popularity at least amongst the European auto industry in various languages here. The implementations are more pure series hybrids than what EREV has been standing for in the U.S. and the industry is marketing the REx as a separate component or even option, not so much a part of the drivetrain. Some in the U.S., obviously, has been approaching the EV question from a bit different perspective overall and that clash shows in a place like this when some may criticize U.S. use of EREV while others talk of the Euro use of REEV, which, while somewhat related, are not exactly the same thing at the moment.

It's pretty clear that the REEV/EREV/EVER term is a marketing term. It will be interesting to see whether the industry terminology will displace the government terminology. I don't think it will, if the government terminology is updated to include "ladehybrid". That would pretty much nail down the definitions, as the tax legislation is really important for the affordability of the vehicles.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

The Karma, the Ampera, the Outlander PHEV, etc are all called plug-in hybrids/ "ladehybrid". The i3 REX is completely unknown to almost everyone, so I can hardly remember having seen any article referring to it in any way. But browsing some of the reviews and articles on the i3, it is sometimes mentioned in a sentence or two. Like: "The i3 can also come with a range extender, a motorcycle engine which charges the battery while you drive, but this changes the car from an electric car to a hybrid, like the Ampera, and adds $15,000 in taxes to the price, so it's not relevant for Norway."

When the government talks about altering the taxation model for plug-in hybrids, it seems very likely that all vehicles that get their propulsive energy from both a battery that can be charged from the grid and an ICE will be treated more or less equally. Maybe you will get some adjustment for all-electric range, but I wouldn't count on it. The most relevant incentive that has been discussed is halved VAT, whereas all-electric cars get 0% VAT. Most likely this incentive would apply to both the cars like the plug-in Prius and cars like the i3 REX.
We don't really have the 3rd classification here. We have old tech hybrids, like the Prius, then we have new tech plug-in hybrids, like the Ampera, Outlander PHEV, i8, V60 PHEV, Karma, etc, and then we have electric cars, like the Model S, Leaf, i-MiEV, i3 (naturally without REX), Zoe, Soul EV, e-Golf, e-Up, etc.

It's pretty clear that the REEV/EREV/EVER term is a marketing term. It will be interesting to see whether the industry terminology will displace the government terminology. I don't think it will, if the government terminology is updated to include "ladehybrid". That would pretty much nail down the definitions, as the tax legislation is really important for the affordability of the vehicles.

Thank you for the insight, Yggdrasil. Very good to know about Norway and very understandable points. Will take heed.

I understand the classification in Norway is a legislative one, as hybrid is a legal definition. Taxation terminology will surely affect the language, that is obvious. $15,000 changes language, that's for sure. That being the case, though, I'm not completely convinced legal definitions are always any better than marketing definitions if taxes are involved, because taxation makes them akin to marketing. The taxman/legislator wanting money isn't necessarily any more ideologically pure than any old marketing department wanting money...

The simple fact that that BMW i3 REx turns an otherwise identical BMW i3 into a $15,000 (in taxes) more expensive hybrid with just the addition of a simple range extender in the trunk, says to me there probably would be in a fair world some middle ground. Perhaps they *should* call that middle ground REEV and halve that tax penalty or something. I have a hard time saying a BMW i3 REx should have similar tax penalty as some minimal EV range hybrid from the usual culprits - and in similar fashion, I have a hard time calling both with simply the same name... Make any sense?

Someone with a BMW i3 REx is far less likely to use the ICE much than someone in their parallel Prius. How similar are the tax penalties for these types of cars?

We clearly need more granularity than just EV vs. hybrid vs. ICE. I doubt many disagree with that. But what is the best granularity and the best terminology, that is of course being fleshed out. EREV was born as a marketing term for Volt, but is REEV also? Are the roots of REEV at any manufacturer or simply within enthusiast/community efforts in ironing out useful terminology? Is EREV still being used as a marketing term or has it lived on to become something useful in terminology etc.?

Just because some terminology starts out as marketing, doesn't necessarily mean it lives on as such. I certainly, when thinking of BEVs vs. REEVs vs. PHEVs vs. HEVs, don't think of any of them as marketing, let alone am I trying to market anything when using such terms. I may be the victim of marketing, of course, but to me all those distinctions seem at least useful, if not perfect. Cutting the REEV part out means lumping together a great number of very different kinds of plug-in hybrids, which doesn't seem quite as useful. Someone quickly telling me BMW i8 is a PHEV and i3 BEV/REEV depending on setup conveys useful information. Saying i3 and i8 are both PHEV, not so much.

For me, a useful term for a (gasoline) range extended EV isn't necessary a synonym to series hybrid either. It could be a series hybrid for sure, but if one were to make a series hybrid where there range extender runs all the time and/or powers a way too small battery, that doesn't sound like a range extender concept to me - it would merely be a series hybrid, not REEV, in my books. I could be OK with classifying any car as EV with range extender if it has significant EV range (i.e. can in reality be operated on EV power alone) and clearly really only uses the ICE for range extension beyond its average use - BMW i3 REx is such a car, especially considering the REx is an option only, signifying the usability of the car even without it... whereas a plug-in Prius is not.

So, five shades of grey...

 

[JRP3]

(mod note: moved from the BMW i8 thread)

Burning gas to keep the power up on an EV seems counterintuitive but one way to do it.

It's actually a way to make a hybrid, not an EV :wink:

 

[JRP3]

You've got to be kidding.

 

[green1]

You've got to be kidding.

Nope, the moderators here are very strict about calling out non-evs that claim to be evs, you're only allowed to discuss such things in this thread. Outside of here you're supposed to take the manufacturer's word for the fact that their gas burning hybrid is actually an EV.