Although the higher the battery capacity the greater the all-electric power as well, so it works out OK. You know if it has only a 10 mile all electric mode the acceleration during those 10 miles is going to suck as well.
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Pure BEV Dogma
- Thread starter bonnie
- Start date
Although the higher the battery capacity the greater the all-electric power as well, so it works out OK. You know if it has only a 10 mile all electric mode the acceleration during those 10 miles is going to suck as well.
Bulletproof
Former Vendor
Why GM insisted on the EREV moniker
The whole EREV episode needs to be into context. GM was at a low point with a bail out in 2008 and a negative image such as it had never witnessed before. They needed to show something not only positive, but new and that would regain its luster. They brought back Bob Lutz from retirement. I was a journalist at the time and the talks I had with GM were wayyyy out there.
We all knew it was a series/parallel hybrid. When we would ask them why they didn't call it such and own the fact that they had the best PHEV on the market they would insist that it was closer to an electric car with an onboard engine acting as a generator. They understood the Tesla threat back then and that their fight with Toyota for supremacy put them far behind. Officially, they ignored it or brushed it off. Still, Tesla was a thorn in their side. A year after the first Volt came out, it became obvious that it wasn't a series hybrid. I had so-called expert turn blue in the face trying to explain to me that it really was despite any logical arguments against it. It was obvious the engine kicked in when the car was at highway speed, regardless the state of charge and especially going uphill. At that point, many of us found a cutaway of its gearbox. Only at this stage did GM publicly, yet quietly admitted that 1% to 5 of the time the engine kicked in to spin the wheels.
What most people probably don't know is that at that time GM was going around the world with replenished pocket money from the bail out serenading governments to accept the de facto EREV moniker. They obviously had little success with it. In 2013 they finally wizened up and are now laughing privately about the whole surreal situation. I even had Brita Gross trying to convince me that it was really an electric car with a gasoline engine... Go figure!
I don't miss those days one bit
The whole EREV episode needs to be into context. GM was at a low point with a bail out in 2008 and a negative image such as it had never witnessed before. They needed to show something not only positive, but new and that would regain its luster. They brought back Bob Lutz from retirement. I was a journalist at the time and the talks I had with GM were wayyyy out there.
We all knew it was a series/parallel hybrid. When we would ask them why they didn't call it such and own the fact that they had the best PHEV on the market they would insist that it was closer to an electric car with an onboard engine acting as a generator. They understood the Tesla threat back then and that their fight with Toyota for supremacy put them far behind. Officially, they ignored it or brushed it off. Still, Tesla was a thorn in their side. A year after the first Volt came out, it became obvious that it wasn't a series hybrid. I had so-called expert turn blue in the face trying to explain to me that it really was despite any logical arguments against it. It was obvious the engine kicked in when the car was at highway speed, regardless the state of charge and especially going uphill. At that point, many of us found a cutaway of its gearbox. Only at this stage did GM publicly, yet quietly admitted that 1% to 5 of the time the engine kicked in to spin the wheels.
What most people probably don't know is that at that time GM was going around the world with replenished pocket money from the bail out serenading governments to accept the de facto EREV moniker. They obviously had little success with it. In 2013 they finally wizened up and are now laughing privately about the whole surreal situation. I even had Brita Gross trying to convince me that it was really an electric car with a gasoline engine... Go figure!
I don't miss those days one bit
Bob Lutz was working continuously at GM between September, 2001 until his retirement in May, 2010. He was brought back as a consultant for some time in 2011.
Bob Lutz (businessman) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
None of that has anything to do with EREV which was used and documented beginning in 2007 the same year the Volt concept was shown and the car was approved for full product development.
GM disclosed the series/parallel or power split mode in the Volt around September 2010 and the car was delivered and formally sold to the initial customers in December 2010. During this time MotorTrend and Car & Driver published detailed articles about the series/parallel mode and about the Volt's transmission design in general in cover articles.
From October, 2010:
2011 Chevrolet Volt First Test - Motor Trend
It's odd that it would take you a further year to become aware of this fact.
Perhaps they vigorously argued with you because you were confused and were resistant to acquiring correct new information.
In reality, the Volt never, under any circumstances, including going uphill, not even 1-5% of the time, starts up the gas engine to assist in driving the car when it is in "EV" mode and there is usable charge remaining in the battery. This simply never happens on any production Volt since the car was first delivered to customers. I challenge you to produce any verifiable evidence for this assertion.
Obviously, the Volt may start the gas engine after all usable charge has been drained from the battery and the car has switched from EV to hybrid (Charge Sustaining) mode. When it switches to hybrid mode there is a very visible animation and a persistent graphic display on the drivers display screen showing a gasoline tank indicator instead of a battery charge indicator.
But perhaps you don't literally mean "the engine kicked in" as in the engine starting. Perhaps what you really mean is that the car is already in Charge Sustaining hybrid mode and 1-5% of the time in hybrid mode the car will switch from series to series/parallel, "especially going uphill." Well, that doesn't make any sense either because going uphill (higher torque demand) is when the Volt would be less likely to be in series/parallel and when it is driving on the highway generally it is usually in series/parallel mode, not just 1-5% of the time. During the EPA US06 highway test cycle, the Volt is in series/parallel about 56% of the time and in series mode only about 16% of the time (the rest of the time the gas engine if off), according to a GM technical paper published at the SAE World Congress in April, 2011. As this demonstrates, you were apparently not actually able to tell when the Volt was in series/parallel mode.
In any case, GM's EREV definition from 2007 has nothing whatever to do with series or series/parallel because it's definition only deals in the behavior of the car in it's "EV" mode before the gas engine ever turns on.
It's probably a good thing that you are no longer one of the confused journalists who write misleading articles about the Volt professionally.What most people probably don't know is that at that time GM was going around the world with replenished pocket money from the bail out serenading governments to accept the de facto EREV moniker. They obviously had little success with it. In 2013 they finally wizened up and are now laughing privately about the whole surreal situation. I even had Brita Gross trying to convince me that it was really an electric car with a gasoline engine... Go figure!
I don't miss those days one bit
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SmartElectric
Active Member
I don't care what they call it, the Volt is a fine car, very efficient, and well loved by it's owners.
I personally wanted to drive 100% electric only, so went with my Smart ED for my commute.
When I talk to people who express range anxiety, I immediately tell them about the Volt.
Brilliant car, does so much well.
I personally wanted to drive 100% electric only, so went with my Smart ED for my commute.
When I talk to people who express range anxiety, I immediately tell them about the Volt.
Brilliant car, does so much well.
I tell people all the time that if the Volt had ~80-100 miles real range in EV mode, I probably wouldn't have Model S.
So glad the Volt didn't, but it's the truth. I would have stuck with our Suburban for family trips and the Volt would have been the second car.
mknox
Well-Known Member
Same here. I have a roughly 90 mile daily commute and wanted to do it all electrically. I drove my company's Volt for a week to see how it would work for me. In ideal weather conditions, I could just barely make it one way. In the winter, I would probably be 3/4 gasoline.
I do get, however, that my commute is out of the norm and I think GM was trying to balance the high cost of batteries against the low cost of an ICE and came up with a battery range that would suit the majority of users. My wife could drive a Volt 100% electrically based on her useage except once or twice a year when she drives to Chicago to see our daughter.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Disagree, the use of two different drive trains qualifies it as a hybrid, even if the ultimate power source is still gasoline. Plugin hybrid differentiates Volt type hybrids from the original Prius type hybrid. The EREV nonsense was always marketing hype.
We'll go round and round, but what I believe is marketing nonsense is the uselessness of having a plugin Prius. Adding a plug to a car doesn't make it a useful electric drive car (i.e. one that can be driven normally by electric power alone). Most plugin hybrids are normal hybrids with slightly larger batteries. If you can't drive it on the freeway using electric power alone it's the plugin hybrid equivalent of a neighborhood electric vehicle (OK, the Fusion PHEV can technically go 85mph all electric, but it takes 15 seconds to go 0-60). Not having the gasoline engine constantly kicking in and then having to go to the gas station to refill it is definitely a huge real world advantage, not marketing hype.
I don't really care what the term is, but I'm hoping there is some marketing distinction that kicks the manufacturers forward from the pathetic 10kWh PHEVs.
igotzzoom
Active Member
I'm also of the mind if I'm going to go plug-in, I'm going to go all-EV. But, of the current PHEVs out there, the Volt seems like the most sincere effort. The rest are short-range hybrids that are made simply to game the EPA and CAFE rules and come up with wildly inflated MPG figures that are only representative if you have a super-short commute where use of the ICE is minimal.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I think the market, along with cheaper, better batteries, will do that, as it will eventually kill off hybrids of all kinds in favor of EV's.
tommolog
Member
Can a PHEV use less gas than an EV?
Chevy Volt Vs Mitsubishi i-MiEV: This Volt Uses Less Gas Than Electric Car, Data Shows
Chevy Volt Vs Mitsubishi i-MiEV: This Volt Uses Less Gas Than Electric Car, Data Shows
If we're going to use "alternative means", I could probably argue that me taking a 4 hour flight for vacation instead of driving a gas guzzler uses less fuel because I'm ride-sharing with a hundred other passengers. Or maybe not, I haven't looked at the numbers.
Actually, to the letter of it flying uses zero "gasoline" right? Jet fuel is a different commodity entirely (IMO).
"Here's how I feel better about my non-EV..." seems to be a popular article and blog post topic these days.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
No, the Volt allowed you to use less gasoline than a very range limited all electric car that could never meet a large percentage of your transportation needs, + the rental vehicles needed to make up the difference.
Surprisingly, Airplanes More Energy Efficient Than Cars
New airplanes are 33.8 passenger-miles per gallon. So, better than a guzzler (ignoring the effects of their pollution at altitude), but by no means ultra efficient. But, geez, you're flying at 500mph and an travel over large expanses of water.
Eventually, but you need an extensive quick charging solution like Tesla is building out to do that. Right now if you want to drive all electric for a wide variety of purposes but take road trips in the same car you have two choices, a Model S or a Volt (the i3 rex isn't really capable of making long road trips in any reasonable fashion).
But that guzzler you're comparing to might have the parents and three kids in it, which makes it five times more passenger miles than just miles. It's all the cars with just one person in them that are the real problem.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
flankspeed8
Member
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
It's a plug in hybrid, not an EV. So as not to derail this thread, see this thread: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/7677-Pure-BEV-Dogma
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