[R+T] Electric Torque Is No Replacement for a High-Revving Engine

[ChadS]

It is definitely true that current production EVs are not good at high speeds on a track. Much of the article and commentary I agree with.

Extreme top-end cars are built by auto manufacturers for two main reasons - the halo effect that they hope will rub off on other cars in their brand to drive more sales; and because ICE are sluggish at the low end and an over-capable (that is, in terms of legal street driving) motor at the top end can help get good performance at the low end (where the vast majority of non-track driving is done). Racing companies and individuals may have other reasons, but they are not relevant to my point below.

Tesla - or anybody else - absolutely could make a good track EV. It wouldn't be trivial or cheap, but it's entirely possible. But Tesla already has more demand than they can supply, and they already have class-leading performance on the low end, so there is no reason for them to spend the time and money working on top-end performance.

The reason I am pointing this out is because I think the complaint about EVs not being able to perform at the high end has a mistaken premise. It's not that regular production EVs can't do it; it's that there is not yet a reason for them to do so. The time will come.

I'm not a racer so it makes no difference to me. I agree that people that like to spend time on the track have valid reasons to prefer ICE for now. That's fine. But for the type of driving I do, I never want to drive an ICE again.

 

[tomas]

R&T author tipped their hand in first quote with comments about appearance. There is a class of ICE muscle car enthusiasts who just hate EVs and are incensed that tesla is doing so well. Author and OP seem in that group. Tesla makes cars that have outstanding performance for what you need day to day. If you are a track guy, you'll get something else. How many track guys are there? .01%? I say that the market decides. Model S is whupping entire segment in the market. Model 3 has more pre-reservations than BMW sells 3 series in a year.

 

[trils0n]

Nissan Stanza and Mercury Cougar? Are we looking at the same Model 3? Model 3 is drop dead gorgeous. The rest of the article is similar nonsense.

People aren't lining up for the Model 3 like the Hellcats that's for sure -- dealers wish they could have the Model 3 demand for the Hellcat. What did Fiat sell in 2015? 8500 Hellcats? Tesla got >100k deposits for the Model 3 before anyone even saw it.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I'm curious again why we need two threads on this (same thing happened last time), but the author's explanation of the torque/power drop from high rpms shows how little he knows about electric motors. It is not increased friction from high rpms, but rather back emf that limits how far the torque band can stretch.

The way you get around this is to use multiple motors and gear them higher (so that you reach your top speed goals and also have a sane level of traction at low speeds). Tesla's current solution does not even begin to touch the potential of electric motors on the track. Tesla simply made the wise decision to focus on the public road performance, since 99.9% of cars out there will never be driven on a track.

 

[BMW ///M3]

you should also know hellcat, during 2015 model years were limited by the number of engines they can produce.
also there is 25-50k adm on a hellcat during early release. that is right, the ADM costs more than a model 3.

I personally don't like a car like hellcat, but to dodge that car was one of their best success $$$ in recent decades.

Nissan Stanza and Mercury Cougar? Are we looking at the same Model 3? Model 3 is drop dead gorgeous. The rest of the article is similar nonsense.

People aren't lining up for the Model 3 like the Hellcats that's for sure -- dealers wish they could have the Model 3 demand for the Hellcat. What did Fiat sell in 2015? 8500 Hellcats? Tesla got >100k deposits for the Model 3 before anyone even saw it.

 

[BMW ///M3]

1999 mercury-cougar for reference, i can see the resemblence for sure.

 

[brianman]

Thanks for the video, S'toon. Entertaining.​

 

[brianman]

r-t-electric-torque-is-no-replacement-for-a-high-revving-engine.68559
electric-torque-is-no-replacement-for-a-high-revving-engine-road-and-track.68560

Creating essentially identical threads consecutively. Someone needs attention.

 

[deonb]

any stock gt-r, 911 turbo, same price range as p90L

So I'm looking at the 911 turbo web site.

I'm about to pull the trigger on the 911 turbo and sell my Model S, since clearly according to you the 911 is in the same class, but better than the Model S in every way.

However, small problem. I can't find the 5 door 7 seat configuration option on the Porsche.com web site for the 911 turbo. Could you point me to it?

 

[stopcrazypp]

1999 mercury-cougar for reference, i can see the resemblence for sure.

I don't see the resemblance. The author might have seen the speculative pictures where people tacked on the Model X grille (that grille does somewhat look like the cougar's), but the Model 3 Tesla unveiled looks more like a Porsche to me.

 

[AUSinator]

I was a rev head and I used to admire the AMG's, porsche's and BMW m cars. Now I have completely lost my admiration towards high powered ICE's and I am looking forward to my Model 3. Sometime in the 2030's buying a ICE is like buying a new car without air con in Dubai. However that's Good news for you : as at the same time BMW m3's or AMG's will be as cheap as peanuts only problem people will see them as a poor hoon teenager, dirty, unreliable, unpractical, noisy, dirty and smelly, shouldn't be on the road car. Expect future m3's and AMG's to be complicated hybrids.

 

[omarsultan]

any stock gt-r, 911 turbo, same price range as p90L, can pretty much match it for 0-60, out pace it in 1/4 and more.

The Porsche 911 Turbo starts at $151K while the P90DL starts at $120K--that's a pretty liberal definition of "same price range". Regardless, what I really find funny is that you think that Porsche's ability have their purpose-built sports car "pretty much match" the 0-60 times of a family sedan that can seat 7 and bring home the groceries is something to be proud of.

 

[BMW ///M3]

you can look at rs7 on the low end , panemera turbo s on the high end
not quite as fast 0-60, but we know the road doesn't end just at 60mph

So I'm looking at the 911 turbo web site.

I'm about to pull the trigger on the 911 turbo and sell my Model S, since clearly according to you the 911 is in the same class, but better than the Model S in every way.

However, small problem. I can't find the 5 door 7 seat configuration option on the Porsche.com web site for the 911 turbo. Could you point me to it?

 

[Denarius]

Probably has always been the fuse for the battery pack. The digital fuse Tesla developed for the Ludicrous upgrade appears to have resolved the power throttling at the track. It will take more data as temperatures heat up this summer, but the prospects look good so far.

 

[BMW ///M3]

FYI rev head does not admire AMGs, 7000rpm is not high rev

and you can't predict the future, you are not god. In 30 years maybe true high rev n/a v8s like e92 m3, GT350, 458 will fetch 1million+ while old model 3 goes straight to recycle after the junk yard picks it up for 200 bucks.

I was a rev head and I used to admire the AMG's, porsche's and BMW m cars. Now I have completely lost my admiration towards high powered ICE's and I am looking forward to my Model 3. Sometime in the 2030's buying a ICE is like buying a new car without air con in Dubai. However that's Good news for you : as at the same time BMW m3's or AMG's will be as cheap as peanuts only problem people will see them as a poor hoon teenager, dirty, unreliable, unpractical, noisy, dirty and smelly, shouldn't be on the road car. Expect future m3's and AMG's to be complicated hybrids.

 

[lolachampcar]

oh,
now that would be an interesting twist to the L upgrade.

 

[dsm363]

any stock gt-r, 911 turbo, same price range as p90L, can pretty much match it for 0-60, out pace it in 1/4 and more. basically pretty much any high power AWD DCT cars can give p90L a run in the straight line.

and any decent litre bikes can pretty much do the same. 9.6-9.8s in 1/4.

EV is not that fast, just letting you know.

'Pretty much' is + or - how many tenths of a second officially? Also, are those cars 5+2 passenger family sedans?

Seriously, give it up. Electric cars are not the perfect car. No one says they are but they do well in segments most people car about. I've never taken my car to the track. Don't car to. I'd rahrer thrash around someone else's car like at a race school than my car.

 

[doublejj]

you can look at rs7 on the low end , panemera turbo s on the high end
not quite as fast 0-60, but we know the road doesn't end just at 60mph

Please show me 1 video of a Panamera besting a model s or x at the strip. There are plenty of videos of Teslas stomping ICE cars in the 1/4 mile......over & over & over. Just google "Tesla vs" you'll see

 

[ohmman]

Didn't we have this conversation already, a week ago.. in two different threads?

@BMW ///M3 - enough of the same thing. Looking forward to some positive posts from you.. soon.

 

[doublejj]

Didn't we have this conversation already, a week ago.. in two different threads?

@BMW ///M3 - enough.

he didn't show me any videos in the thread either....after I asked