Radar deleted on all new Model Y and Model 3. Is FSD worth it?

[walkrunflyy]

Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision | Tesla Support

Safety is at the core of our design and engineering decisions. In 2021, we began our transition to Tesla Vision by removing radar from Model 3 and Model Y, followed by Model S and Model X in 2022. Today, in most regions around the globe, these vehicles now rely on Tesla Vision, our camera-based...

www.tesla.com

We are continuing the transition to Tesla Vision, our camera-based Autopilot system. Beginning with deliveries in May 2021, Model 3 and Model Y vehicles built for the North American market will no longer be equipped with radar. Instead, these will be the first Tesla vehicles to rely on camera vision and neural net processing to deliver Autopilot, Full-Self Driving and certain active safety features. Customers who ordered before May 2021 and are matched to a car with Tesla Vision will be notified of the change through their Tesla Accounts prior to delivery.

For a short period during this transition, cars with Tesla Vision may be delivered with some features temporarily limited or inactive, including:

• Autosteer will be limited to a maximum speed of 75 mph and a longer minimum following distance.
• Smart Summon (if equipped) and Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance may be disabled at delivery.

In the weeks ahead, we’ll start restoring these features via a series of over-the-air software updates. All other available Autopilot and Full Self-Driving features will be active at delivery, depending on order configuration.

All new Model S and Model X, as well as all vehicles built for markets outside of North America, will continue to be equipped with radar and will have radar-supported Autopilot functionality until we determine the appropriate time to transition those vehicles to Tesla Vision.

Frequently Asked Questions​

How do I know if my car is equipped with radar? 
Starting with deliveries in May 2021, Model 3 and Model Y vehicles built for the North American market will be optimized for Tesla Vision and will not be equipped with radar. If you ordered a car before May and are matched to a car that is not equipped with radar, you will be notified of the change in your Tesla Account prior to delivery.

Why aren’t Model S and Model X transitioning now?
Model 3 and Model Y are our higher volume vehicles. Transitioning them to Tesla Vision first allows us to analyze a large volume of real-world data in a short amount of time, which ultimately speeds up the roll-out of features based on Tesla Vision.

 

[Tam]

...All new Model S and Model X, as well as all vehicles built for markets outside of North America, will continue to be equipped with radar and will have radar-supported Autopilot functionality until we determine the appropriate time to transition those vehicles to Tesla Vision...

Some people want to buy a certain version of hardware instead of buying the real purpose of spending the money in the first place.

Robotaxi is science fiction that no one has been able to achieve yet.

Some think they only need vision. Some think they need all the technology that's available for them right now: sonar, radar, lidar, and camera.

The current hardware is only hoping that it will be able to get us to Robotaxi but there's no proof just yet.

Thus, betting on certain hardware such as HW2.0 when it was first introduced because it was explained that all Tesla produced at that time in October 2016 had all the necessary hardware for FSD. Now we know that HW2.0 became 2.5 and then 3.0 for now.

It's the same idea if I fully paid for a trip to Mars, I should not insist that my hardware would be Falcon Heavy rocket because while it looked good at that time, then the trip would need the BFR, then the BFR still is not enough and is obsolete and we need something else...

Remember, your money is to get FSD. It doesn't matter how or which hardware as long as you get FSD.

I am not an expert in FSD but if I could, I would prefer all the technology that's available for me right now: sonar, radar, lidar, and camera. If in the future any of those are not needed, they could be ignored by the software. That's much easier to do with over-the-air correction.

With Tesla's method of deletion of radar for now, if in the future, there's a need for radar for proper function, Tesla can always retrofit it back on. It's labor-intensive but by that time, radar deletion might just be a bridge while waiting for the global chip shortage to be over soon.

 

[JupiterMan]

With Tesla's method of deletion of radar for now, if in the future, there's a need for radar for proper function, Tesla can always retrofit it back on. It's labor-intensive but by that time, radar deletion might just be a bridge while waiting for the global chip shortage to be over soon.

Tesla will have done the math to reach the conclusion around radar removal ... its now just fine tuning of the software to validate the changes.

it isn't coming back.

 

[MY-Y]

Even with the radar, the adaptive cruise control in my MY doesn't maintain a constant distance as well as my other cars adaptive cruise. Radar goes through fog and rain better than light and isn't impacted by oncoming blinding headlights or a low sun.

I cannot believe removing the radar is a good idea.

 

[DanDi58]

I wonder what that means for those of us with radar-equipped vehicles? Does that mean that FSD will not work the same as non-radar cars? Or that we'd require hardware changes to run FSD? Lots of questions, as usual, no answers!

 

[iamnid]

I wonder what that means for those of us with radar-equipped vehicles? Does that mean that FSD will not work the same as non-radar cars? Or that we'd require hardware changes to run FSD? Lots of questions, as usual, no answers!

I think they'll eventually phase out the radar use on our cars.

 

[zpaul]

Even with the radar, the adaptive cruise control in my MY doesn't maintain a constant distance as well as my other cars adaptive cruise. Radar goes through fog and rain better than light and isn't impacted by oncoming blinding headlights or a low sun.

I cannot believe removing the radar is a good idea.

Agreed. Saw a lot of posts and videos where Tesla stoped in dense fog or rain before driver could see or react.
So I wonder how purely relying on cameras will work.

 

[Stealth.Pilot]

FSD has not been worth it since they raised the price to $10k. FSD is really EAP with some additional benefits for the next owner of the car.

Further Tesla's valuation of FSD on secondary sales suggests a level of depreciation on this feature which is insane.

 

[DayTrippin]

I just don't understand why you would limit the options from a safety perspective. I come from a very extensive aviation background as I am an aeronautical engineer. There is a reason radar, and its variants, are used. For any of you pilots, just think of the difference between IFR and VFR conditions. Vision is very limited in so many conditions. Why would I want to solely rely on that?

This is worth a read.

Why Tesla Using LiDAR Is Way More Complex Than It Seems

After we saw pictures of Tesla using Luminar Hydra LiDARs, we examined the arguments about it and the situation is more complex than it seems.

insideevs.com

 

[avs007]

I just don't understand why you would limit the options from a safety perspective. I come from a very extensive aviation background as I am an aeronautical engineer. There is a reason radar, and its variants, are used. For any of you pilots, just think of the difference between IFR and VFR conditions. Vision is very limited in so many conditions. Why would I want to solely rely on that?

This is worth a read.

Why Tesla Using LiDAR Is Way More Complex Than It Seems

After we saw pictures of Tesla using Luminar Hydra LiDARs, we examined the arguments about it and the situation is more complex than it seems.

insideevs.com

I think the difference, is that when you are flying, you are unlikely to come across any stationary objects that do not pose a danger to you... Driving on the other hand is quite different. If you come upon a stationary object on the radar, you need to determine if that object is in your path or not... That is the part that is hard to do, because the granularity to determine that is often not there, which is why most all car manufacturers tell you that it cannot detect stationary objects, only objects that are moving at least 3 mph. (Because if the object is moving, then it is more likely to be something that can be obstructing your path)

 

[IA_TESSIE]

I just don't understand why you would limit the options from a safety perspective. I come from a very extensive aviation background as I am an aeronautical engineer. There is a reason radar, and its variants, are used. For any of you pilots, just think of the difference between IFR and VFR conditions. Vision is very limited in so many conditions. Why would I want to solely rely on that?

This is worth a read.

Why Tesla Using LiDAR Is Way More Complex Than It Seems

After we saw pictures of Tesla using Luminar Hydra LiDARs, we examined the arguments about it and the situation is more complex than it seems.

insideevs.com

Cost. Plain and simple.

No way it is 'safer' without radar. Nearly every day my camera's are blocked just due to the Sun shining on them.

 

[DayTrippin]

I see why they limit it from a cost perspective but I think it was a stupid idea. They have a good reputation for safety in general other than the idiots riding in the back seat, but it seemed like the tech worked reasonably well in my test drives for the AP. I think the FSD is a total ripoff and a waste of money in its current state.

With all the price increases taking place, that should have at least one of them should have covered the radar costs.

 

[avs007]

I see why they limit it from a cost perspective but I think it was a stupid idea. They have a good reputation for safety in general other than the idiots riding in the back seat, but it seemed like the tech worked reasonably well in my test drives for the AP. I think the FSD is a total ripoff and a waste of money in its current state.

With all the price increases taking place, that should have at least one of them should have covered the radar costs.

Radar induced phantom braking can be quite annoying tho... The two most common cases for me:
1. If someone in front of you turns right, and you are the right distance behind, such that your path is clear because the car in front turned already, but is still within view of the radar, my car will slam on the brakes, even tho my travel lane is completely clear. It doens't come to a complete stop, it acts more like a brake check, as it releases the brakes when the car in front is no longer in view. But it sure does induces road rage in the people behind me. Altho, this only happens if I have the drivers assist active... If I don't, it doesn't do this in this case.
2. There is a curve near my daughter's school. Right at the apex of the curve, there is a light post... If I'm in the right lane, my car will slam on the brakes 99% of the time if I approach that curve > 35mph (45mph speed limit)... So to compensate, I always have to make sure I'm in the left lane, when coming up that road. Phantom braking occurs in this situation for me, regardless if I have the drivers assists on or off, probably because the computer thinks an accident is imminent, as many times during this scenario, it also tightens the shoulder belts.

Note: The above is not for a Tesla, as I'm still waiting for a VIN... I will be sure to drive down that road when I drop off my daughter after taking delivery of my Y.

 

[DanDi58]

I think they'll eventually phase out the radar use on our cars.

Well, yes, but I guess what I'm really asking is, do the May 2021 and forward builds have a better camera system than the ones built with radar? Are there other HW changes that we don't have?

 

[laceyboy]

Even with the radar, the adaptive cruise control in my MY doesn't maintain a constant distance as well as my other cars adaptive cruise. Radar goes through fog and rain better than light and isn't impacted by oncoming blinding headlights or a low sun.

I cannot believe removing the radar is a good idea.

I do see some cons using radar for cruise/ autopilot.
Here is what I found.
A car cross the road (at intersection) and within radar range, AP/cruise abruptly slow down.
You approaching a car(s) waiting to turn, AP/cruise do the same.
AP/cruise may also abruptly slow down on a sharp right curves when a truck coming from other direction.
If you forgot to increase the range, your car also abruptly slow down in a slow/stop traffic on front of you.

 

[walkrunflyy]

One more important thing I noticed is this,
the config page used to show forward facing radar coverage of 160M now in the vision system the visual processing coverage is 250M.
Does that mean the ultrasonic sensors have changed or upgraded?

 

[Yoliber]

One more important thing I noticed is this,
the config page used to show forward facing radar coverage of 160M now in the vision system the visual processing coverage is 250M.
Does that mean the ultrasonic sensors have changed or upgraded?

Nothing has changed except removal of radar. The narrow camera was always capable of 250m. The Ultrasonic sensors are still the same 8m range.

 

[Yoliber]

I wonder what that means for those of us with radar-equipped vehicles? Does that mean that FSD will not work the same as non-radar cars? Or that we'd require hardware changes to run FSD? Lots of questions, as usual, no answers!

So far it seems like you guys will have a better vehicle until Tesla Vision reaches parity. Tesla Vision uses the same sensors your car already has so they'll just transition you over once parity is reached.

 

[socal_my]

Does this mean all existing M3/MY will also migrate to Vision and stop using the radar although it's present?

 

[Yoliber]

IIRC current ones will have radar as dead weight once/if Tesla Vision reaches parity. For now, only new 3/Y owners will be the guinea pigs and utilize tesla vision.

Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision | Tesla Support

Safety is at the core of our design and engineering decisions. In 2021, we began our transition to Tesla Vision by removing radar from Model 3 and Model Y, followed by Model S and Model X in 2022. Today, in most regions around the globe, these vehicles now rely on Tesla Vision, our camera-based...

www.tesla.com