Radar getting turned off on Model 3/Y with 2022.20.9

[WindPower]

Just for the sake of argument, isn’t it possible that .... disabling radar is safer, and provides a smoother ride?

Radar is simply a sensor, providing another data point to the Tesla auto steer application.
In my opinion, since there are so many issues with the reliability of Tesla's self driving feature (issues which prevent FSD from being fully deployed to all who purchased it), Tesla should be adding MORE sensors to self driving, not less. Let them have as many sensor inputs as possible and when FSD is really working, they can start looking at which sensors are not necessary.
Tesla has not demonstrated that FSD is safe enough right now to be removing sensors.
In my opinion, radar is a critical feature and 'vision only' will never deliver what Tesla promised. There are too many cases when vision doesn't work. There are also cases where radar doesn't work (like animals which radar has a hard time detecting) so you need both.
This is just my opinion, but removing radar was simply a way for Tesla to increase their profits at the expense of safety.

 

[dansev]

Radar is simply a sensor, providing another data point to the Tesla auto steer application.
In my opinion, since there are so many issues with the reliability of Tesla's self driving feature (issues which prevent FSD from being fully deployed to all who purchased it), Tesla should be adding MORE sensors to self driving, not less. Let them have as many sensor inputs as possible and when FSD is really working, they can start looking at which sensors are not necessary.
Tesla has not demonstrated that FSD is safe enough right now to be removing sensors.
In my opinion, radar is a critical feature and 'vision only' will never deliver what Tesla promised. There are too many cases when vision doesn't work. There are also cases where radar doesn't work (like animals which radar has a hard time detecting) so you need both.
This is just my opinion, but removing radar was simply a way for Tesla to increase their profits at the expense of safety.

I don't doubt you might be 100% right. But then WHY would Tesla do this? And if you are right, that sucks, because clearly the writing is on wall: radar is going away. For me, it's sooner because they're jamming 2020.20.9 down my throat. For the rest of you...I think we know a similar "feature" will be in firmware for you all just a bit later!

Why, oh, why, am I one of the "lucky" ones to get this update? Argh!

 

[patmurphey]

...Since 2022.20.9 came out I spent many hours researching the subject which increased my knowledge but I also have a life. The car for me is a tool and it is ridiculous to have to do a research every time when Tesla decided to drastically change something that I own...

The use of photons has nothing to do with current basic autopilot software. It's part of the ongoing development of FSD. Features from FSD will ultimately improve autopilot. The "never crash" module is new and a separate function within FSD and can easily port to basic autopilot. It sounds like you would be much happier with another auto maker.

Research is only necessary if you are interested in the ongoing development of FSD and its implications for a more advanced basic or enhanced autopilot.

 

[MP3Mike]

I don't doubt you might be 100% right. But then WHY would Tesla do this? And if you are right, that sucks, because clearly the writing is on wall: radar is going away. For me, it's sooner because they're jamming 2020.20.9 down my throat. For the rest of you...I think we know a similar "feature" will be in firmware for you all just a bit later!

Why, oh, why, am I one of the "lucky" ones to get this update? Argh!

Apparently the switch to Tesla Vision is also in 2022.24.6, so it is probably coming to everyone in the US soon.

 

[dansev]

Apparently the switch to Tesla Vision is also in 2022.24.6, so it is probably coming to everyone in the US soon.

I see that now. OK, it's coming for all of us. I am going to update now to 2022.20.9. I'll be the guinea pig. I have 3 hours in the car tomorrow. Will see how Vision goes, and report back.

Bye-bye, radar. It was nice using your senses...

 

[buddhafree]

...
Bye-bye, radar. It was nice using your senses...

lol. The radar is not going away. It will stay with you as long as you own the car providing moral support.

 

[Alan_F]

I'm glad that works wherever you live in Oregon. But if you were using AP with the following distance of 5 or 6 in DC commuter traffic, where I live.. you would literally get shot. I'm not even joking. You would cause so much road rage that someone would absolutely attempt to harm you.

Every once in a while I set mine to 2.. and I still end up with a bunch of drivers frustrated and jumping in front of me in traffic only to slam on brakes seconds later. That's when I switch to 1.. and just deal with my car accelerating & braking harder as it closes the following distance between my car and the one ahead.

I'll qualify this with stating that I don't deal with DC commuter traffic daily, and drive more on the Beltway and in the suburbs than the city itself, but I routinely drive in DC-area traffic with a following distance of 4 or 5. I've been driving a Tesla since December 2019 and use Autopilot as much as possible. Pretty much all the time on any road with lane markings. I haven't been shot even once. Haven't even been shot AT. Literally. Not even joking...

If you see a story on the DC-area evening news tomorrow about a Tesla driver getting shot after a road-rage incident, that means I'm probably regretting this post

 

[nj1266]

I just have a question about the legality of what Tesla is doing here. I bought a car with radar installed and functional for AP use. Tesla is taking a function from my car that I bought and paid for. How is that legal? Especially since there was an increase in complaints following the removal of radar on 2021+ cars? Are there any lawyers here that can help. I really do not want to lose radar functionality on my car and replace it with something more cumbersome (Must use high beam and auto wipers).

 

[Boza]

I just have a question about the legality of what Tesla is doing here. I bought a car with radar installed and functional for AP use. Tesla is taking a function from my car that I bought and paid for. How is that legal? Especially since there was an increase in complaints following the removal of radar on 2021+ cars? Are there any lawyers here that can help. I really do not want to lose radar functionality on my car and replace it with something more cumbersome (Must use high beam and auto wipers).

At what point changes, that Tesla pushes down the throat, turn the product into something substantially different from what you bought? I have the same question...

 

[Boza]

The use of photons has nothing to do with current basic autopilot software. It's part of the ongoing development of FSD. Features from FSD will ultimately improve autopilot. The "never crash" module is new and a separate function within FSD and can easily port to basic autopilot. It sounds like you would be much happier with another auto maker.

Research is only necessary if you are interested in the ongoing development of FSD and its implications for a more advanced basic or enhanced autopilot.

Even if they walk on water, Tesla _cannot_ use individual photons. They use raw image from the camera, which gives them direct data for individual pixels. That is what everyone else does from day one.

The adaptive cruise control (so called "Autopilot" which, in reality, is something very different from what Tesla does and separate from the FSD) currently uses radar to measure the distance from the car in front. By disabling the radar they will switch to camera-only solution which uses parallax to measure distance. In the days before wide radar adoption the parallax method was common for measuring distance. It relies on the difference in images between two or more sensors. That is how we have the depth perception. While simpler than the radar, this method is not as accurate and suffers from limitations, especially at close distance. I would guess that was why they increased the following distance to two - because, at some point, the images become so different that the system cannot compare them. That is why the parallax method is used in very limited cases and radar has largely taken over.

Combined data from both camera and radar is definitely superior than camera only. Conflicting sensor information is a common, well understood problem in automated systems. The solution is to increase the number of sensors, preferably the types of sensors, not to remove them. It is possible that in 90% of the cases cameras are better but there are the 10% where the radar is better. Understanding that "long tail" problem is something that Tesla continues to struggle - this removal of the radar is only one example; there are many more. That is why I have a serious doubt that they will have FSD anytime soon. The problem is that, because of the FSD focus, they break simple things like so called "AP".

Tesla's claim that vision only system is better than multi sensor array is like claiming that people do not need ears because they already have eyes. It is ridiculous.

 

[Tha_Ape]

Even if they walk on water, Tesla _cannot_ use individual photons. They use raw image from the camera, which gives them direct data for individual pixels. That is what everyone else does from day one.

The adaptive cruise control (so called "Autopilot" which, in reality, is something very different from what Tesla does and separate from the FSD) currently uses radar to measure the distance from the car in front. By disabling the radar they will switch to camera-only solution which uses parallax to measure distance. In the days before wide radar adoption the parallax method was common for measuring distance. It relies on the difference in images between two or more sensors. That is how we have the depth perception. While simpler than the radar, this method is not as accurate and suffers from limitations, especially at close distance. I would guess that was why they increased the following distance to two - because, at some point, the images become so different that the system cannot compare them. That is why the parallax method is used in very limited cases and radar has largely taken over.

Combined data from both camera and radar is definitely superior than camera only. Conflicting sensor information is a common, well understood problem in automated systems. The solution is to increase the number of sensors, preferably the types of sensors, not to remove them. It is possible that in 90% of the cases cameras are better but there are the 10% where the radar is better. Understanding that "long tail" problem is something that Tesla continues to struggle - this removal of the radar is only one example; there are many more. That is why I have a serious doubt that they will have FSD anytime soon. The problem is that, because of the FSD focus, they break simple things like so called "AP".

Tesla's claim that vision only system is better than multi sensor array is like claiming that people do not need ears because they already have eyes. It is ridiculous.

I think the real reason they want to go to Vision Only on radar cars is to simplify software development. Their view is likely vision is "good enough" due to IIHS testing. They don't really care that they're nerfing the cars abilities or they'd simply wait until Vision Only was at least equal to radar.

 

[Tha_Ape]

Apparently it's also part of 2022.24.6

That really sucks because 2022.24 honestly fixed everything I thought was broken (camera repeater location and navigation). Then they dropped a turd in it.

I'm planning on ignoring the update because honestly following at distance "1" is more important to me. Also, I think auto engaging "auto highbeams" will be annoying. It's literally the only auto feature on the car I dislike and don't use.

 

[patmurphey]

Even if they walk on water, Tesla _cannot_ use individual photons. They use raw image from the camera, which gives them direct data for individual pixels. That is what everyone else does from day one...

It's nice that you know more than Tesla engineers. I have only repeated what they have revealed about their program.

 

[Boza]

It's nice that you know more than Tesla engineers. I have only repeated what they have revealed about their program.

Well, I have some experience with real photon counting But, more importantly, claims that go against the current knowledge have to be independently verified. It is called “science”.
Have you seen anyone else in the field independently confirming that vision only is better or, at least, the same? Just the opposite - everyone is working with multi sensor arrays.

 

[dansev]

Tesleans, I have seen the Vision! And it is...fine. It's fine. I updated last night. Drove an hour and fifteen minutes with AP on I-90/I495 and some secondary roads. Overall, it was *possibly* a bit more smooth than when I had radar helping out. A bit more, if anything. (Probably not, probably placebo.) On the down side, an intersection I go through every day near my house exhibited a problem I battled with in the first 12-18 months after getting the car that went away with some software update. It's back now, but I'll survive. Basically there are no lane markers and for whatever reason, the car thinks it should quickly change lanes in the middle of the intersection. Odd, but I can deal with that. Probably shouldn't use AP in that intersection anyway. No phantom breaking occurred. And MOST IMPORTANTLY: I did not need to uncover my cabin camera. I feel like I had an extra nag or two to grab the wheel, but that might have been my imagination. So Vision did not end my world, nor did it bathe it in glorious light. It was fine. Fine. Nothing to see here...

 

[WindPower]

So Vision did not end my world, nor did it bathe it in glorious light. It was fine. Fine.

Sure, it will be fine until it isn't. That's the problem with edge cases: you almost never see them until you do. And if you don't take the edge case into account, the system will fail.
Radar might not be needed until vision fails due to bright light or bad light or rain, or when an object moves behind another object and vision can't 'see' the object. Radar might not be needed for 99% of your drive, but its the 1% that can get someone killed.

 

[Yelobird]

Tesleans, I have seen the Vision! And it is...fine. It's fine. I updated last night. Drove an hour and fifteen minutes with AP on I-90/I495 and some secondary roads. Overall, it was *possibly* a bit more smooth than when I had radar helping out. A bit more, if anything. (Probably not, probably placebo.) On the down side, an intersection I go through every day near my house exhibited a problem I battled with in the first 12-18 months after getting the car that went away with some software update. It's back now, but I'll survive. Basically there are no lane markers and for whatever reason, the car thinks it should quickly change lanes in the middle of the intersection. Odd, but I can deal with that. Probably shouldn't use AP in that intersection anyway. No phantom breaking occurred. And MOST IMPORTANTLY: I did not need to uncover my cabin camera. I feel like I had an extra nag or two to grab the wheel, but that might have been my imagination. So Vision did not end my world, nor did it bathe it in glorious light. It was fine. Fine. Nothing to see here...

Amazing how change doesn’t always have to be certain doom. Sometimes it’s just change.

 

[dansev]

Sure, it will be fine until it isn't. That's the problem with edge cases: you almost never see them until you do. And if you don't take the edge case into account, the system will fail.
Radar might not be needed until vision fails due to bright light or bad light or rain, or when an object moves behind another object and vision can't 'see' the object. Radar might not be needed for 99% of your drive, but its the 1% that can get someone killed.

Why do you have to ruin my blissful ignorance with such solid facts and reason?

Seriously though, I get it. I’m just trying to be optimistic. This car, with autopilot, has changed my life. It’s taken the worst part of my day and turned it into the best. From back-killing stress to something more like a pleasant train ride. I can’t handle the idea that Tesla might ruin it!

 

[WindPower]

This car, with autopilot, has changed my life. It’s taken the worst part of my day and turned it into the best. From back-killing stress to something more like a pleasant train ride.

Use it, don't abuse it. Its not self driving so be alert when you use auto steer and you will be fine. I use auto steer maybe 5 minutes a week and its nice to be able to go on TACC and relax a bit.

 

[dansev]

Use it, don't abuse it. Its not self driving so be alert when you use auto steer and you will be fine. I use auto steer maybe 5 minutes a week and its nice to be able to go on TACC and relax a bit.

I get it! It's not that I'm not paying attention. It's just the physical act of clutching the wheel, literally to avoid death, and with feet on the pedals, that physical situation for 90/180 minutes a day is really tough on a non-teen/20-something body. I use AP to relieve that physical stress and it has worked wonders. I'm still in control, but my muscles are far more relaxed.