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Radar getting turned off on Model 3/Y with 2022.20.9

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For those who are saying somehow Radar & Lidar will magically improve autonomous driving capability - It won't.

Radar/Lidar is extremely useful in a very controlled environment, where every object in your neighborhood has been catalogued and identified and there are no surprises. A good example is Dragon docking with ISS.

It is much less useful in a highly complex and chaotic environment such as driving in highway or city streets, where there are moving objects at different speeds in different directions, immobile objects, objects that appear out of nowhere, different shapes etc.. You always run into so many false positives, that often the data becomes useless to make quick split sub-second decisions. Now when you combine that with visual data, it becomes even more difficult that they often don't agree with each other.

What Tesla found is, while Radar is useful in cases like getting the accurate speed of a car in front of you, they often end up overriding Radar input in favor of visuals. So much so in the big scheme of things, the value add of Radar is more than compensated with the spurious data they get during complex situations, not to forget the added compute cycles spent on processing Radar/Lidar data.

So they made the decision to remove Radar and completely depend only on cameras, and use the full processing power to process data from 6 cameras, and improve on it. Their reasoning is simple:

Driving on roads is an environment tailor made for humans with two eyes and brains. It can only be solved with visuals and processing power. Combining different types of inputs, although that might seem very helpful in the initial stages for simple situations, pretty soon that will get you to a dead end (local maxima).

And so far they seem to be on the right track. If the others - Waymo, Uber, Mobileye have been correct, they would have had autonomy by now. But they don't. And neither has Tesla (although many would rightly claim Tesla is ahead in generalized, non-geo fenced autonomy).

So the jury is still out.
 
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My 2022 vision only car kept slowing from 60 to 35 (55mph speed limit, getting passed often at max speed) due to “limited vision” from reflected glare from water “in” the road surface.
Don't understand why would that be the case. Radar can't differentiate between painted and non-painted surface. Cameras can. Lane keeping is a camera function.
 
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Don't understand why would that be the case. Radar can't differentiate between painted and non-painted surface. Cameras can. Lane keeping is a camera function.
Is it perhaps picking up a speed limit from an adjacent road? I have that issue on a 'highway' near my house - after turning on to it from a 35 mph road, it limits my AP speed until I pass a 55 mph sign about 1/2 mile up the road.
 
Is it perhaps picking up a speed limit from an adjacent road? I have that issue on a 'highway' near my house - after turning on to it from a 35 mph road, it limits my AP speed until I pass a 55 mph sign about 1/2 mile up the road.
Yeah I really dislike the automatic heavy drop in speed when the car doesn’t recognize the road (road re-alignment or general construction)
 
And so far they seem to be on the right track. If the others - Waymo, Uber, Mobileye have been correct, they would have had autonomy by now. But they don't. And neither has Tesla (although many would rightly claim Tesla is ahead in generalized, non-geo fenced autonomy).

Last I checked they do. Waymo and others literally have existing driverless vehicles and ride services working in major cities. And from what Im aware anyone can use them. The reason why the product is taking so long to reach the end consumer isn't that the technology doesn't work. But because it must be continually refined, tested, improved, and advanced to the point where it fits into a typical passenger vehicle (i.e. smaller sensors & faster processing) and government regulations allow it.

When has Tesla driven people around in one of their "Vision" vehicles with no one sitting in the driver's seat?

 
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Also, a few facts to mention here as people keep saying Vision AP = Radar AP.

No, it's not. Off the top of my head:

  • Vision AP is limited to 85mph, Radar AP is limited to 90mph.
  • Vision AP is limited to a max following distance of "2", Radar AP is limited to a "1"
  • Vision AP requires the use of auto high-beam at night, Radar AP does not.
The two are simply not equal. Im not saying that will always be the case, but I am saying that is the case right now. If you have any evidence to refute the above, please correct me.

**edit**

I also want to add the last bullet point.. is what makes Vision AP so concerning to me: "Vision AP requires the use of auto high-beam at night, Radar AP does not". Forget talking about AP, FSD, and any type of autonomous driving for a minute, and think about this. Tesla's version of auto-high-beam is literally the worst iteration of auto high-beam I have used. And we've owned 3 different vehicles with auto high beams that work flawlessly. From what I am aware.. Tesla's version of auto high-beam depends on cameras to locate potential reasons to automatically turn high beams on & off. Everybody else uses a much simpler sensor. If Tesla can't even get the auto high-beam to work properly using cameras, how much confidence do I really have in them getting cameras only to accomplish true self-driving?

The same could even be said about auto windshield wipers. While they work better now than they did with previous versions of software. They are still nowhere near as reliable or accurate as the auto wipers in vehicles with a simple $5 rain sensor.

And again Im not saying that it never will be possible. I'm sure given enough cameras, given enough resolution, given enough processing power.. Self-driving with cameras is actually possible. I just have little to no faith that what's currently installed in our 3/Y is anywhere near that capable. Maybe 10-20 years from now.. self-driving with cameras-only might equal the capabilities of cameras+radar+lidar+other sensors. But it's still a point that remains to be seen. Outside of Elon who else is making claims that cameras-only is better or adequate?
 
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  • Vision AP is limited to 85mph, Radar AP is limited to 90mph.
  • Vision AP is limited to a max following distance of "2", Radar AP is limited to a "1"
  • Vision AP requires the use of auto-high beams at night, Radar AP does not.
The two are simply not equal. Im not saying that will always be the case, but I am saying that is the case right now. If you have any evidence to refute the above, please feel free to correct me.

Depends on your use case. For example for me:
  • Doesn't make any difference, I never even set AP to 85. Very rarely even as high as 80.
  • Doesn't make any difference, I run at a following distance of 5 or 6.
  • Doesn't make any difference, I run with auto-high beams on. (And you can turn auto-high beams off. You just have to do it every time you turn on AP.)
My only concern is the performance of AP as I use it. And from what I can tell Tesla Vision is just as good, if not better, than the radar based AP. (I'm going off my use of Tesla Vision based on videos and reports of the radar based AP, as my prior Tesla didn't have AP at all so I don't have experience using it.)
 
For those who are saying somehow Radar & Lidar will magically improve autonomous driving capability - It won't.

Radar/Lidar is extremely useful in a very controlled environment, where every object in your neighborhood has been catalogued and identified and there are no surprises. A good example is Dragon docking with ISS.

It is much less useful in a highly complex and chaotic environment such as driving in highway or city streets, where there are moving objects at different speeds in different directions, immobile objects, objects that appear out of nowhere, different shapes etc.. You always run into so many false positives, that often the data becomes useless to make quick split sub-second decisions. Now when you combine that with visual data, it becomes even more difficult that they often don't agree with each other.

What Tesla found is, while Radar is useful in cases like getting the accurate speed of a car in front of you, they often end up overriding Radar input in favor of visuals. So much so in the big scheme of things, the value add of Radar is more than compensated with the spurious data they get during complex situations, not to forget the added compute cycles spent on processing Radar/Lidar data.

So they made the decision to remove Radar and completely depend only on cameras, and use the full processing power to process data from 6 cameras, and improve on it. Their reasoning is simple:

Driving on roads is an environment tailor made for humans with two eyes and brains. It can only be solved with visuals and processing power. Combining different types of inputs, although that might seem very helpful in the initial stages for simple situations, pretty soon that will get you to a dead end (local maxima).

And so far they seem to be on the right track. If the others - Waymo, Uber, Mobileye have been correct, they would have had autonomy by now. But they don't. And neither has Tesla (although many would rightly claim Tesla is ahead in generalized, non-geo fenced autonomy).

So the jury is still out.
This is an interesting explanation - thank you! Do you have links to similar analyses coming from Tesla? Given that the rest of the industry continues to use radar+camera combo it would be good to understand Tesla’s research on the matter. “Just trust me” is not enough in this case.
 
Depends on your use case. For example for me:
  • Doesn't make any difference, I never even set AP to 85. Very rarely even as high as 80.
  • Doesn't make any difference, I run at a following distance of 5 or 6.
  • Doesn't make any difference, I run with auto-high beams on. (And you can turn auto-high beams off. You just have to do it every time you turn on AP.)
My only concern is the performance of AP as I use it. And from what I can tell Tesla Vision is just as good, if not better, than the radar based AP. (I'm going off my use of Tesla Vision based on videos and reports of the radar based AP, as my prior Tesla didn't have AP at all so I don't have experience using it.)
I'm glad that works wherever you live in Oregon. But if you were using AP with the following distance of 5 or 6 in DC commuter traffic, where I live.. you would literally get shot. I'm not even joking. You would cause so much road rage that someone would absolutely attempt to harm you.

Every once in a while I set mine to 2.. and I still end up with a bunch of drivers frustrated and jumping in front of me in traffic only to slam on brakes seconds later. That's when I switch to 1.. and just deal with my car accelerating & braking harder as it closes the following distance between my car and the one ahead.
 
Also, a few facts to mention here as people keep saying Vision AP = Radar AP.

No, it's not. Off the top of my head:

  • Vision AP is limited to 85mph, Radar AP is limited to 90mph.
  • Vision AP is limited to a max following distance of "2", Radar AP is limited to a "1"
  • Vision AP requires the use of auto-high beams at night, Radar AP does not.
The two are simply not equal. Im not saying that will always be the case, but I am saying that is the case right now. If you have any evidence to refute the above, please feel free to correct me.
The fact that I have to turn off high beams _every_ time I enable AP is a deal breaker. In general, Tesla automation - high beams, wipers, etc. - simply does not work reliably. Arguably, I could add AP to that list.
Leaving the technology aside, in principle, MS having a radar was part of my buying decision. May be not critical, but definitely a factor. Similarly, I bought the car with V10 interface philosophy. Again, not critical, but factor nevertheless.
Following the “Trust me, it is better for you” line, at what point the product becomes substantially different than what I bought? Leaving aside the fact that I have serious questions of trust when it comes to Tesla.
Why does this tread is starting to remind me of the V11 treads from less than a year ago? I am getting fed up with changes that I did not ask for. I had many cars before but never those issues. I have a life; I cannot constantly worry about the next crazy thing that they will concoct for something that _I_ own. Frankly, OTA is a liability, not a benefit.
 
The fact that I have to turn off high beams _every_ time I enable AP is a deal breaker. In general, Tesla automation - high beams, wipers, etc. - simply does not work reliably. Arguably, I could add AP to that list.

I agree 100% here. You replied before I edited my post to specifically pointed out that neither automated high beams nor wipers work reliably on my Tesla. You probably want to go back and re-read what I said, which basically was that simple, cheap sensors have historically done a much better job. And these sensors have been installed in vehicles for decades now. Auto high beams & wipers are a technology that Mercedes has used since the early 2000s.

Want another one to add to your list: "Smart" matrix LED headlights? Tesla has proven they do have the ability to turn on/off individual LED with their current installation of matrix LED headlights.. as we have seen these headlights spell out the word Tesla when demonstrating the Light Show presentation after the December OTA updates.

So now that it's confirmed that Tesla is indeed using "smart" matrix LED headlights, Im still not aware of them using other "smart" features like oncoming traffic recognition to automatically turn on/off individual LEDs. Meanwhile, Audi and other automakers have enabled this technology in Europe (it just recently became legal to enable here in the US).

This video demonstrates how the smart matrix LED headlights should work when fully enabled:

 
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I agree 100% here. You replied before I edited my post to specifically pointed out that neither automated high beams nor wipers work reliably on my Tesla. You probably want to go back and re-read what I said, which basically was that simple, cheap sensors have historically done a much better job. And these sensors have been installed in vehicles for decades now. Auto high beams & wipers are a technology that Mercedes has used since the early 2000s.

Want another one to add to your list: "Smart" matrix LED headlights? Tesla has proven they do have the ability to turn on/off individual LED with their current installation of matrix LED headlights.. as we have seen these headlights spell out the word Tesla when demonstrating the Light Show presentation after the December OTA updates.

So now that it's confirmed that Tesla is indeed using "smart" matrix LED headlights, Im still not aware of them using other "smart" features like oncoming traffic recognition to automatically turn on/off individual LEDs. Meanwhile, Audi and other automakers have enabled this technology in Europe (it just recently became legal to enable here in the US).

This video demonstrates how the smart matrix LED headlights should work when fully enabled:

Hey, that looks like my laser lights.
 
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Depends on your use case. For example for me:
  • Doesn't make any difference, I never even set AP to 85. Very rarely even as high as 80.
  • Doesn't make any difference, I run at a following distance of 5 or 6.
  • Doesn't make any difference, I run with auto-high beams on. (And you can turn auto-high beams off. You just have to do it every time you turn on AP.)
My only concern is the performance of AP as I use it. And from what I can tell Tesla Vision is just as good, if not better, than the radar based AP. (I'm going off my use of Tesla Vision based on videos and reports of the radar based AP, as my prior Tesla didn't have AP at all so I don't have experience using it.)
Good point.

Yes those are differences, but really in the scheme of things just are trivial, irrelevant and immaterial. When you go from one to another tech, you lose some, and you gain some. Just that in the long run we have to see if the benefits overwhelmingly outweigh the few trivial downsides.
 
This is an interesting explanation - thank you! Do you have links to similar analyses coming from Tesla? Given that the rest of the industry continues to use radar+camera combo it would be good to understand Tesla’s research on the matter. “Just trust me” is not enough in this case.
This came out of some of Elon's and his deputies videos. Elon specifically mentioned how they have very good experience in using Lidar in SpaceX, long before anyone used it in a commercial application. They knew the benefits and downsides. Karpathy dwelled on the spuriousness of Radar and how it is only making their progress difficult, and vision wins most of the time in terms of conflict.

Everyone else is using radar is not a winning argument, given no one else is able to go beyond geo-fenced well mapped areas. I consider these like the Amazon robots in their warehouse. These robots do their job well, but their usefulness is limited to warehouse. They are not general purpose.

Can any of these autonomous cars do Chuck's UPL ? or navigate a round about ? Can Waymo take any unprotected left turns?
 
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Let’s not bundle sensors with the AI. It is possible that Tesla has a better AI (even though Waymo actually carries passengers in an urban environment) but other manufacturers have successful radar-based adaptive cruise control (in Tesla hyped words: AP) that is, arguably, better. Have you heard of PB in Audi or Mercedes? Yes, they are worse in self driving but adaptive cruise control is rock solid.
 
Can any of these autonomous cars do Chuck's UPL ? or navigate a round about ? Can Waymo take any unprotected left turns?
Interesting.... From Wiki....

On June 3, 2022, a Cruise AV taxi carrying three backseat passengers was involved in an accident with a Toyota Prius after making an unprotected left turn. According to Cruise, "occupants of both vehicles received medical treatment for allegedly minor injuries". According to GM, the Prius was speeding at the time of the accident and was in the wrong lane. In the aftermath of the incident, Cruise temporarily changed the vehicles' programming to make fewer unprotected left turns.

I thought this was funny (same source)...

In June 2022, nearly twenty Cruise AVs blocked traffic for two hours by clustering at the intersection of Gough and Fulton in San Francisco.[61] A Cruise employee sent an anonymous letter to the CPUC, asserting that Cruise loses communication with the automated vehicles "with regularity", sometimes requiring a tow truck for recovery.[62] Additional documented occurrences of immobilized Cruise vehicles in 2022 include May 18 (fleet-wide communications loss), June 21 (Tenderloin), and June 28 (near Golden Gate Park).

Funny how widespread news on this was lacking, yet every time a Tesla catches on fire, national news quickly picks it up....
 
Tesla says that, but having used both systems (and being in FSD beta for both), would say the radar based system was far more reliable. Less phantom braking, and when following cars, the radar based system was much more responsive to cars slowing down and delivering a gradual deceleration. The vision only based system has a disconcerting lag time.

Can't imagine myself the only person with this experience, but welcome to see what others who have used both say.
This was my experience to a T, and the reason I ultimately opted back out of the Beta. The phantom braking while using cruise control is just downright embarrassing, not to mention dangerous.

I am not at all going to be happy when/if they push Vision on me again, unless it has progressed significantly in the 2 weeks since I finally ditched it. In it's current state, it is much worse than the radar system.
 
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I am not at all going to be happy when/if they push Vision on me again, unless it has progressed significantly in the 2 weeks since I finally ditched it. In it's current state, it is much worse than the radar system.
It sounds like you are comparing what you have to FSD Beta. FSD beta is not the Tesla Vision hey are pushing out in 2022.20.9. (A number of people with Tesla Vision complained about regressions when opting in to the FSD Beta.) And the FSD Beta you had is way more than 2 weeks old.
 
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It sounds like you are comparing what you have to FSD Beta. FSD beta is not the Tesla Vision hey are pushing out in 2022.20.9. (A number of people with Tesla Vision complained about regressions when opting in to the FSD Beta.) And the FSD Beta you had is way more than 2 weeks old.

My observations were mainly about cruise control (though I did notice minor regressions in other areas as well). And I can tell you, unequivocally, that the adaptive cruise control experience is made MUCH worse by the removal of radar. I don't keep up enough to know about what stacks they're using for what feature or what the correct terms even are anymore, but I'm making an A/B comparison here and the camera-only system is an embarrassment.... on a feature that should be trivial IMO.
 
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