Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health

[CarlThompson]

If you check the model S subforums you will find that tesla does not give out new batteries for warranty, and the warranty specifically says that tesla can give new or remanufactured. the warranty also specifically spells out that the the replacement pack may not have the same capacity as new.

Reread what I wrote. I didn't say that Tesla would give anyone a new battery. And I clearly wrote that Tesla COULD give someone a battery that didn't have full capacity. But what I wrote (and I thought was very clear) is that for all the battery replacements I've read about so far Tesla has "supplied a replacement battery that worked similarly to new." If you have specific examples of cases where this was not true then of course that would be good to know. Do you?

So, what @PartyBoy asked about is absolutely not going to work, as tesla will have every statistic possible on exactly how the car, and the battery, was used.

I have no idea how you are arriving at that conclusion. Putting aside whether or not someone morally SHOULD attempt to use a product in a way that could cause premature wear in order to get a warranty replacement... as long as they don't do anything that Tesla says would void the warranty that should be no problem. For example, there have been multiple examples of cars receiving replacement batteries with no issues that were supercharged to 100% multiple times per day because they were used in a taxi service. (At the time using the car as part of a transportation business wasn't against Tesla's warranty.)

So if @PartyBoy or anyone else wants to supercharge to 100% multiple times per day and / or rapidly discharge their car to 1% on a race track multiple times per day that's perfectly OK according to Tesla and in my opinion Tesla should not do anything to punish them because it's perfectly within what's allowed by the warranty.

MUST... NOT... THUMBS... DOWN... MODERATOR... WITH... WHOM... I... USUALLY... AGREE!!!

 

[MP3Mike]

But what I wrote (and I thought was very clear) is that for all the battery replacements I've read about so far Tesla has "supplied a replacement battery that worked similarly to new." If you have specific examples of cases where this was not true then of course that would be good to know. Do you?

Most battery replacements have been with refurbished packs, that did not have range similar to a new pack. (But did have similar range to the failed pack that they replaced.) Many examples on TMC. (There are also example of people that got new packs because there weren't refurbished ones available.)

Putting aside whether or not someone morally SHOULD attempt to use a product in a way that could cause premature wear in order to get a warranty replacement...

Abusing the pack, by things like excessive Supercharging, would likely trigger the charge rate throttling that Tesla has built in to the BMS to prevent excessive degradation. So again, you would be living with a prematurely degraded pack with throttled Supercharging, hoping to get it to "fail" before the warranty runs out. Sounds like shooting yourself in the foot to me. (And of course old Model S/X packs, with the unlimited mileage warranty, don't have a degradation warranty, so getting it below 70% won't get you a replacement.)

 

[CarlThompson]

Most battery replacements have been with refurbished packs, that did not have range similar to a new pack.

I haven't read any articles about this for a while so perhaps my info is outdated. Can you point to some credible accounts that back that up?

 

[Andyhay]

I took delivery of a Model 3 Long Range 2nd December (UK). The weather has been cool and I am using climate control more or less constantly. I have noticed lately that most of my trips are averaging 329 - 400 (Wh/km). A recent 80% charge suggested 267 mile range, I have so far managed 92 miles and have 60 miles range left. I am a Tesla newby, (probably obviously), is this normal. For information most of my journeys are sub 20 miles. Any advice or guidance appreciated.

 

[Rocky_H]

I am a Tesla newby, (probably obviously), is this normal?

Yes, normal, and this forum always has hundreds of threads on this same question every Winter. And it is because of this:

For information most of my journeys are sub 20 miles.

That number on the display ("rated miles") is just units of energy, converted by the EPA efficiency consumption factor, which is a constant and pretty optimistic. But the main thing is that it's energy. And all of that has to come from the one battery in the car, which has to supply driving, PLUS heating. The first several miles of your driving has a really intensely high energy consumption as it is doing a lot of heating of the cabin and battery, using up extra of those "rated miles". And if all you're doing is short trips, you are doing that first several miles over and over and over, so you're efficiency is always going to look bad.

On longer trips, it won't be like that because the car will have enough time to actually get to a warm point where the energy usage can settle down, and the efficiency will get a lot better.

 

[AAKEE]

But what I wrote (and I thought was very clear) is that for all the battery replacements I've read about so far Tesla has "supplied a replacement battery that worked similarly to new."

In my last post I posted a few examples from threads I found after a search.
I did guess/hope that you would do a own search in the subject. But, OK then:

Summary:
I did find some posts about battery replacements. One got a 85kWh battery ibstrad of the original 70, all other I found did clearly express that they got a remanufactired battery with the same or sbout the same rabge as begore the fail.

But the range is the same as before service with rated at 392km

P85DL HV Battery Replacement

My 85 went bad under warranty. They refused to give me a NEW one that went 265 miles. They gave remanufactured one that only went 225. Excuse, we don't make 85 anymore. That's why I wanted a 100.

HV Battery Replacement

Tesla showing both lv and hv batteries have been replaced. the range went up to 342! (was showing 310-312 prior to battery replacement)

2020 Model X Long Range, Black/Black, 7-seater, 28k miles, Maryland, $99k

2014 Model S60 battery failed two weeks ago. I received it back today and I looked like the range was odd. I believe the S60 was rated at 208 and when I got home I decided to charge it to 100% to check the range and at 100% it is 173.

They told me I was getting a refurbished pack.

Battery Replaced Under Warranty - 30+ miles below rated range

The new (used) battery is installed,and the Tesla guys keep telling me that it is even better than my old one. They really don't care that I can prove that my practical range with the new battery has shrunk with almost 100 km on a full charge (that's 60 miles!) and also been able to prove that the capacity of this 85 battery lies a little bit less than - hold on - 55 kWh!!!!!! I have proved it by using normal maths and statistics.
The Tesla guys aren't willing to do anything and I need to complain to someone higher up, but have no addresses.

Battery pack replacement

 

[hendo408]

Model 3 SR+ (2020).

I went on a trip and experienced greater than expected battery drain. Started with 90%. Drove 32 miles from A-town to B-town, mostly freeway cruising at 75 mph. Arrive at B-town with 68% battery.

Left B-town, drove 32 miles back to A-town mostly freeway cruising at 75 mph. Arrive with 43% battery.

In total: 64 miles roundtrip, mostly 75 mph. Lost 47% battery. Outside temperature was about 44 degrees Fahrenheit and no noticeable wind, inside temperature was 68 degrees.

Are these numbers reasonable or is there something wrong?

 

[jjrandorin]

is there something wrong?

, mostly freeway cruising at 75 mph

In total: 64 miles roundtrip, mostly 75 mph

Nope, nothing is wrong in the slightest. "Cruising at 75mph" will in no way shape or form get anywhere near rated range.

 

[CarlThompson]

In my last post I posted a few examples from threads I found after a search.
I did guess/hope that you would do a own search in the subject. But, OK then:

Summary:
I did find some posts about battery replacements. One got a 85kWh battery ibstrad of the original 70, all other I found did clearly express that they got a remanufactired battery with the same or sbout the same rabge as begore the fail.

P85DL HV Battery Replacement

HV Battery Replacement

2020 Model X Long Range, Black/Black, 7-seater, 28k miles, Maryland, $99k

Battery Replaced Under Warranty - 30+ miles below rated range

Battery pack replacement

None of those examples seem to have anything to do with the topic we are talking about here: warranty replacements for going below 70%.

I'll point out that if Tesla were to replace a battery pack that was under 70% range remaining it wouldn't make logical sense for them to replace it with a battery of comparable range as you say because then the owner would qualify for a new replacement under warranty.

Further most (all?) of those examples of replacements for other reasons support MY point not yours:

1. This P85 owner says their range after replacement was 392 km which is about 92% of the rated range when new. That's a point for me.
2. This S85 owner says their range after replacement was about 225 miles which is about 85% of the rated range when new. Since in this thread we're talking about an original pack that would be under 70% getting a replacement with 85% would be closer to the range when new than to their old range (but just barely). We'll call that a draw.
3. This Model X owner says their range after replacement was about 345 miles which is right where a brand new pack would be (depending on wheels/tires). That's another point for me.
4. This S60 owner says their range after replacement was 173 miles which is about 83% of the rated range when new. Since in this thread we're talking about an original pack that would be under 70% getting a replacement with 83% might possibly be closer to their old range than to the range when new (but just barely). We'll call that a draw.
5. This S85 owner does not even say what their range was when the battery was replaced so how can you claim this proves your point? Were you hoping no one would read so far? What the owner did say is: "got more usable kWh" which I'm going to call a point for me.

Did you think no one would bother reading your examples? They pretty much prove my point not yours!

 

[MP3Mike]

This P85 owner says their range after replacement was 392 km which is about 92% of the rated range when new. That's a point for me.

Interesting. You said that they would get a pack that performed like new. I don't consider 8% degradation performing like new. So no point for you.

And even when they get one with 15% degradation it's only a draw? You play by some interesting rules.

And again, there is no 70% degradation warranty for the P85, S85, S60, etc. vehicles. The warranty only covers actual failure.

 

[CarlThompson]

I took delivery of a Model 3 Long Range 2nd December (UK). The weather has been cool and I am using climate control more or less constantly. I have noticed lately that most of my trips are averaging 329 - 400 (Wh/km). A recent 80% charge suggested 267 mile range, I have so far managed 92 miles and have 60 miles range left. I am a Tesla newby, (probably obviously), is this normal. For information most of my journeys are sub 20 miles. Any advice or guidance appreciated.

It is normal to have worse than expected range in the winter. However you say that you are averaging 329-400 Wh/km which translates to 529-644 Wh/mile which would be extremely bad. Are you sure you meant Wh/km and not Wh/mile? Many people even in extremely cold climates get much better efficiency than that. If you take many small trips of only a few miles at a time, blast the heat on high and don't precondition your battery maybe that could explain such poor numbers.

Can you give us a better sense of how you use your car? What's the average length of a trip for you? Do you precondition? How do you have climate set? What's the weather like?

 

[CarlThompson]

Interesting. You said that they would get a pack that performed like new. I don't consider 8% degradation performing like new.

I guess you and I have different definitions of my phrase "worked similarly to new." To me, a pack with 92% of new capacity is in the new ballpark at least.

To put specifics on it if my 358 mile Model 3 degrades to 249 miles in 7 years and Tesla replaced the bad battery with one that brought my range back up to 329 miles (92%) I personally would be ecstatic and happy with what Tesla provided. You I guess would still complain. To each his own.

 

[MP3Mike]

I guess you and I have different definitions of my phrase "worked similarly to new." To me, a pack with 92% of new capacity is in the new ballpark at least.

To put specifics on it if my 358 mile Model 3 degrades to 249 miles in 7 years and Tesla replaced the bad battery with one that brought my range back up to 329 miles (92%) I personally would be ecstatic and happy with what Tesla provided. You I guess would still complain. To each his own.

You can't compare the degradation between the Model S and Model 3 packs. The original Model Ss, that you are using as an example, normally lost ~5% in the first year, and then ~1% per year after that. So a pack at 92% has about 4 years of degradation. Something that works like it is 4 years old, or half of its warrantied life, is not "like new" to me.

On the other hand Model 3 packs tend to lose 8-10% the first year, and then closer to 2% each year after that. (You aren't likely to get a refurbished Model 3 with only 8% degradation.) I haven't seen information for refurbished packs for the Model 3 as there haven't been that many fail, and certainly not many, if any, that hit the 30% degradation warranty.

 

[CarlThompson]

On the other hand Model 3 packs tend to lose 8-10% the first year, and then closer to 2% each year after that.

My Model 3 had zero degradation the first year and less than 8% degradation after 4 years 30k miles.

 

[hendo408]

Nope, nothing is wrong in the slightest. "Cruising at 75mph" will in no way shape or form get anywhere near rated range.

If I extrapolate the numbers, 90% to 10% battery will get me roughly 110 miles of mostly freeway driving? That seems pretty sad.

 

[jjrandorin]

If I extrapolate the numbers, 90% to 10% battery will get me roughly 110 miles of mostly freeway driving? That seems pretty sad.

You cant extrapolate the numbers, it doesnt work that way.

 

[KenC]

Model 3 SR+ (2020).

I went on a trip and experienced greater than expected battery drain. Started with 90%. Drove 32 miles from A-town to B-town, mostly freeway cruising at 75 mph. Arrive at B-town with 68% battery.

Left B-town, drove 32 miles back to A-town mostly freeway cruising at 75 mph. Arrive with 43% battery.

In total: 64 miles roundtrip, mostly 75 mph. Lost 47% battery. Outside temperature was about 44 degrees Fahrenheit and no noticeable wind, inside temperature was 68 degrees.

Are these numbers reasonable or is there something wrong?

Well, two things affecting your range, speed and temps. At 75mph, you can lose 10 to 15% of efficiency compared to 65mph. At 44F, you can also lose 10 to 15% of efficiency. So, a total loss of 20 to 30%. Your loss was a bit more. Not unreasonable, but on the low end of what I'd expect.

 

[AAKEE]

None of those examples seem to have anything to do with the topic we are talking about here: warranty replacements for going below 70%.

I can not see any real difference in how Tesla would handle the below 70% capacity failed battery vs a broken one that perhaps had 90% capacity left.

How would a failed battery pack after 2-5 years differ to a 7year old that lost >30% capacity when it comes to the warrant psrt and replacement?
For starters I think there will be no different way of the handling of the case. They get you a refurbished pack that they know will hold at least the 70% capacity until the warranty expires.
Next thing will be the access to battery packs. They most certain will not continue to make new packs of old expired battery technologies. But they will have about the same number of packs to remanufacture as they have ”broken packs”( as each warranty battery replacement give Tesla one pack back). And most pack will not have been swapped because of capacity issues but other issues like contactors and BMS etc. so there will be more or less the same amount of packs and as they age with the fleet they will also be at about the same degradation status as the car fleet.
—> You most probably get a refurbished pack and the range is probably not the new car range.

I feel that it is more or less no idea to continue the discussion as you are not interrested in seeing things like some other of us in this thread do. No bad feelings at all from my side but I am starting to feel that we will not reach a common conclusion in this case.

We will probably have to wait and see how the first below 70% capacity within the warranty falls out.
I think that the warranty information is quite clear, and together with the posts in TMC we have a really good hint of what we will most probably get if the battery brakes down. From this I would not recommend anyone to try to find it out.

 

[AAKEE]

My Model 3 had zero degradation the first year and less than 8% degradation after 4 years 30k miles.

There is a big variation in degradation.
The biggest reason for the variation should be ambient temperature and charging schedule.

My M3P is 13 months since I picked it up, 32.000km and still full range on every full charge.
Via SMT I can see that my Nominal Full Pack is 80.4kWh. It was 80.7 the day after delivery when I connected SMT.
My degradation record on teslafi is on aversge a straight horizontal line
I live in a cold climate and use a charging schedule that should keep the degradation very low.

But this do not change the fact that many or most people in US see around 10% capacity loss after a couple of years.

Initially calendar aging is the biggest source of degradation for most people, and it lessens with the square root of time so in 3-5 years or so it will be much less.

 

[Mappyd]

I bought Model 3 standard range plus with an advertised 305ml range but in the month I've had it, it never shows more than 275ml range. Having spoken to Tesla three times about this they've said the 305ml range is 1. a battery hardware upgrade (if it is I don't have it). 2. It's a software update that will happen at some point (plausable). 3. It's a 305ml range car but shows 275 ml range because of my driving style in cold weather (unlikely). Surprisingly I'm confused, and thoughts?