Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health

[Bouba]

When you want to make a new post...the first thing this forum does is ask you to check other similar posts...perhaps this needs to be beefed up, use AI to always redirect to the battery thread

 

[Steve446]

I hit submit on the above post before I was done, as I needed to go to a meeting. Ill continue my thought here. So, I am totally open to someone(s), working together to make a thread I could sticky, but I dont think it will make a ton of difference other than for people to direct others to it.

People dont want to read this thread because of its size (I get that). This thread is way (way way) too big to be "read" but its not too big to be searched as a thread. There are some great explanations in here on what actually is going on, and a few members have taken the time to really try to explain to new users what actually is happening, with charts and graphs, and some technical explanations about constants, and buffers, etc.

It all boils down to "No, your car isnt broken, and yes, its normal, and yes EPA range is somewhat unrealistic, and No, you are not going to charge your car once every 3 weeks because you drive 15 miles a day."

But even typing that in every thread that pops up, with the inevitable next question which is either "Why?", and / or lashing out in anger over "I was misled!" is asking a lot of regulars who might be inclined to answer the question (and as I mentioned, it tends to overwhelm the forum, with a lot of threads on the same topic that end up having 4-6 responses unless they are crafted as troll posts to get a rise out of people, like " Range on my tesla sucks! (insert 2 sentence rant)".

So, thats a lot of the reason I put everything in this thread on this topic, but as I mentioned I decided I wasnt going to do that anymore, and let those posts do what they are going to do.

I totally understand your strong feelings about the subject and it's merited. Like I said I'm willing to help work on this topic (read or not ). It seems difficult to conduct that live on forum. Is there anyway to pm ? I didn't see that?

 

[jjrandorin]

I totally understand your strong feelings about the subject and it's merited. Like I said I'm willing to help work on this topic (read or not ). It seems difficult to conduct that live on forum. Is there anyway to pm ? I didn't see that?

You should be able to someone under the envelope icon. It doesnt appear for new accounts but yours isnt new and has plenty of posts. Im not interested in collaborating on a post explaining this myself (there are already a lot of posts in this vein in this thread), but if you want to collaborate with the thread regulars via PM and post something you want to be stickied, I am open to that.

 

[bkp_duke]

Opened a new thread before I saw this one, so posting here because it will probably get more eyes and feedback.

Just bought the wife a new Model Y Performance. 2020, VIN in the 50,xxx range so it has the slightly smaller battery. Car has 11,900 miles on it, previous owner (can tell from the nav log that Tesla didn't clear out) lived in the Santa Barbara area and didn't appear to Supercharge much. No idea what their charging habits would have been (hope they didn't charge to 100% all the time.

Original "rated" range at 100% would have been 291 miles with the Uberturbines. Currently, we've had it for a month and charging to 90% is consistently 240 miles. Extrapolating that gives a 100% range of ~262 miles. That would be a 10% degradation on a car that is pretty much exactly 2 years old.

When I do @AlanSubie4Life 's calculation from this thread:

Calculating Your Battery's Estimated Capacity Using the Car's Energy Screen

Re posting here and making this a sticky post so it doesnt get lost. @AlanSubie4Life originally posted: =========================================== (originally posted by @AlanSubie4Life. Original thread this appeared in can be found here: ( 2021 model Y scan my Tesla battery size)...

teslamotorsclub.com

Depending upon the exact 5 mile stretch I get 70.5 to 71.5 kwh for the pack capacity. That aligns with my own observations of ~10% range loss.

Is there something I'm not taking into account here? Do I need to do the "recalibration" by depleting the battery down to ~5%, recharging, rinse and repeat several times?

This is our 4th Tesla, and at this amount of mileage, we've always had 1/2 of this level of degradation, or less.

 

[jjrandorin]

Opened a new thread before I saw this one, so posting here because it will probably get more eyes and feedback.

Just bought the wife a new Model Y Performance. 2020, VIN in the 50,xxx range so it has the slightly smaller battery. Car has 11,900 miles on it, previous owner (can tell from the nav log that Tesla didn't clear out) lived in the Santa Barbara area and didn't appear to Supercharge much. No idea what their charging habits would have been (hope they didn't charge to 100% all the time.

Original "rated" range at 100% would have been 291 miles with the Uberturbines. Currently, we've had it for a month and charging to 90% is consistently 240 miles. Extrapolating that gives a 100% range of ~262 miles. That would be a 10% degradation on a car that is pretty much exactly 2 years old.

When I do @AlanSubie4Life 's calculation from this thread:

Calculating Your Battery's Estimated Capacity Using the Car's Energy Screen

Re posting here and making this a sticky post so it doesnt get lost. @AlanSubie4Life originally posted: =========================================== (originally posted by @AlanSubie4Life. Original thread this appeared in can be found here: ( 2021 model Y scan my Tesla battery size)...

teslamotorsclub.com

Depending upon the exact 5 mile stretch I get 70.5 to 71.5 kwh for the pack capacity. That aligns with my own observations of ~10% range loss.

Is there something I'm not taking into account here? Do I need to do the "recalibration" by depleting the battery down to ~5%, recharging, rinse and repeat several times?

This is our 4th Tesla, and at this amount of mileage, we've always had 1/2 of this level of degradation, or less.

10% is not out of the realm of possibility for a 2 year old model 3 / Y, at least not from what I am aware of. These cars (unlike S / X) seem to have 6-10% in the first year to two, then slow down pretty drastically after that. Its also a combination of miles and calendar aging.

@AlanSubie4Life or @AAKEE can correct me if I have that wrong, though.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Is there something I'm not taking into account here? Do I need to do the "recalibration" by depleting the battery down to ~5%, recharging, rinse and repeat several times?

This is our 4th Tesla, and at this amount of mileage, we've always had 1/2 of this level of degradation, or less.

No, you don’t need to do anything.

This is normal. 10% is extremely common after a couple years. Note that on your prior Telsas, a certain amount of the initial capacity loss could have been hidden via a variety of means. I don’t follow what happens on Model S/X, historically, etc. so no idea.

And they are probably 18650 cells which may be slightly different.

So unless you meticulously tracked those prior vehicles with something that read actual capacity, it is hard to compare them. There is nothing wrong with the energy screen method - it is accurate, you just have to have something to compare to for initial capacity and for this model we KNOW the exact initial capacity. No idea for your other vehicles.

On this Model Y it would have started with 77.8kWh.

Conditions and use will also somewhat affect capacity loss a bit so identical results should not be expected.

I’d expect slow changes from here.

 

[bkp_duke]

10% is not out of the realm of possibility for a 2 year old model 3 / Y, at least not from what I am aware of. These cars (unlike S / X) seem to have 6-10% in the first year to two, then slow down pretty drastically after that. @AlanSubie4Life or @AAKEE can correct me if I have that wrong, though.

My 2018 P3D has only lost 5%, over 30,000 miles.

I understand there will be car to car variations, but 10% at 12k miles seems a tad . . . excessive.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

My 2018 P3D has only lost 5%, over 30,000 miles.

I understand there will be car to car variations, but 10% at 12k miles seems a tad . . . excessive.

Note that your P3D 2018 (I have one too) hid initial capacity loss of 2.3%. It started at (nominally) 77.8kWh.

So if it is at 294 miles that is actually closer to 7.3%. (Even though it is 95% of 310rmi.)

Recent vehicles do this to a lesser extent, in general. (Initial capacity and degradation threshold are much closer to one another, unlike the 77.8kWh and 76kWh on the 2018/2019 P3D.)

I have about 9-10% capacity loss.

A couple percent difference can easily be explained by charging habits, a bit of initial capacity difference, temperature, etc.

 

[jjrandorin]

My 2018 P3D has only lost 5%, over 30,000 miles.

I understand there will be car to car variations, but 10% at 12k miles seems a tad . . . excessive.

What does it show in miles or capacity right now?

 

[bkp_duke]

What does it show in miles or capacity right now?

263 at 90%

 

[jjrandorin]

263 at 90%

Mine (2018 Model 3P) was 247 at 90% as I had been charging it to 70-80%. About a week ago I set it back to 90% and the displayed range has slowly changed from 247, up to 257. Note that I dont believe the actual distance I could drive has changed at all, nor have I done the battery calculation to see what that says.

I just remember that there is a somewhat slow balancing that takes place with the battery at 90% that doesnt take place at lower ranges, but that also doesnt actually impact much but the number on the screen (BMS estimation).

You could try the balancing gyrations or charging to 90% and keeping it there for a few days, to see if the number on the screen changes, but I dont think it would change the amount of actual stored energy you have available.

 

[bro1999]

My 2018 P3D has only lost 5%, over 30,000 miles.

I understand there will be car to car variations, but 10% at 12k miles seems a tad . . . excessive.

My '21 3 SR+ (NCA battery) has lost 5.5% over 32k miles and 14 months of ownership according to TeslaFi. (263 EPA vs 248 current range).
Had dipped as low as 239 miles on a full charge, but has crept back up to 248 the past week. Usually charge to 90%, no more than a couple dozen supercharge sessions.

 

[KenC]

Given you have 4 Teslas, or have had 4 Teslas, maybe getting yourself an OBD reader with SMT would be a useful tool.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

263 at 90%

So that is 5.8%. So add 2.3% approx, so 8% loss on the P3.

All pretty close.

You can try various things as @jjrandorin says but in the end likely to not make much difference. Estimate is really good, usually, and not going to be off by more than 3% except very rarely.

Not saying prior owner had no impact on capacity loss - lots of details matter. But we are talking about just a few % difference.

Results are very consistent with your P3D, nearly identical (most of this happened in first couple years probably). (10% in two years vs. 8% in four years)

 

[bkp_duke]

So that is 5.8%. So add 2.3% approx, so 8% loss on the P3.

All pretty close.

You can try various things as @jjrandorin says but in the end likely to not make much difference. Estimate is really good, usually, and not going to be off by more than 3% except very rarely.

Not saying prior owner had no impact on capacity loss - lots of details matter. But we are talking about just a few % difference.

Results are very consistent with your P3D, nearly identical (most of this happened in first couple years probably). (10% in two years vs. 8% in four years)

This is the wife's new work car, so range is important. Probably going to swap out the 21" Uberturbines for some 19" Gemini's to get her an extra 30 miles or so per charge.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Probably going to swap out the 21" Uberturbines for some 19" Gemini's to get her an extra 30 miles or so per charge.

The tires are the key.

 

[bkp_duke]

The tires are the key.

Without digging for a dedicated tire thread, what are the options? I don't want a "loud car", so anything that increases the acoustics is a no-go. Hoping there is some happy balance between range and noise levels.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Without digging for a dedicated tire thread, what are the options? I don't want a "loud car", so anything that increases the acoustics is a no-go. Hoping there is some happy balance between range and noise levels.

Don’t track the latest hotness. Sorry. Crossclimate 2 for versatility but will not have low RR. Could look at Pilotsport EV. Not sure sizes available. Check Model Y forum I guess.

 

[jjrandorin]

Without digging for a dedicated tire thread, what are the options? I don't want a "loud car", so anything that increases the acoustics is a no-go. Hoping there is some happy balance between range and noise levels.

Im not following that very close either, sorry. In general terms, the tires that tesla picks for their non performance versions tend to be low rolling resistance, but on model 3s as you likely know, there are some challenges with finding the right rims and tires to fit properly on the performance version. If you dont want to do a lot of research, I might check with a vendor like @MODEL+ or @TSportline for advice, since I believe they will both have appropriate rims and tires for your needs.

 

[3sr+buyer]

Without digging for a dedicated tire thread, what are the options? I don't want a "loud car", so anything that increases the acoustics is a no-go. Hoping there is some happy balance between range and noise levels.

The Tesla OEM tires like the Tesla-specific versions of the Michelin Primacy MXM4 and Hankook Kinergy GT tend to have low rolling resistance for increased range and foam liners for noise reduction. The aftermarket Pirelli PZero ELECT also has these features (there are several PZero tires; the ELECT version is the one you want for range and low noise).

However, those who prefer sportier tires with less emphasis on range and noise tend to have other preferences.