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Raven LR vs LR Plus range issue: car value

Lorians

Member
Jan 22, 2020
31
9
Zürich
Hi there!

Just dropped in after regularly reading all very interesting discussions, thanks!

Here is my (maybe on only mine) “dilemma”:

I own a Raven LR with FSD delivered on 10/19, showing 360 miles at 100% here in Switzerland.

I’m still hoping and maybe wrongly that I could get at least 391 miles after the announced OTA software upgrade, which some has received but others not.

I do not quite understand all the E/F battery issues and fully aware of quick progress but, given the car initial value, I just would like to avoid, after a few months, to be stuck with 40 miles less range than 1/2020 made LR Plus with 402 miles, which btw is cheaper than the former LR I own.

Hence, questioning the “car value appreciation teorema” vs pretty obvious depreciation...unless in such case a fair upgrade policy is planned.

All your opinions/comments, suggestions and/or respective experiences on such view and similar situation would be much appreciated!

Cheers!
 

Tam

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
8,461
7,300
Visalia, CA
...“car value appreciation teorema” vs pretty obvious depreciation...unless in such case a fair upgrade policy is planned...

1) Like any very high tech item, the value can be depreciated from the moment you bought it.

The price reflects the moment you bought it, not the future's.

That means if I want a cheaper price on cell phone, I wouldn't pay $4,000 on 10/12/1983.

I could wait for 37 years later and buy the currently worst ones that cost less than $100 and it's still much better than that $4,000 cell phone.

2) EPA boost via software seems to be only valid for EPA specifications: I got a 2018, 310 mile Model 3 Rear Wheel Drive Long Range. Tesla has increased that model to 330 miles as of today. However, I have not seen any mile increased in my own car throughout the past 2 years. The EPA spec still says 310 for 2018 model and it has not changed.
 
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Lorians

Member
Jan 22, 2020
31
9
Zürich
1) Like any very high tech item, the value can be depreciated from the moment you bought it.

The price reflects the moment you bought it, not the future's.

That means if I want a cheaper price on cell phone, I wouldn't pay $4,000 on 10/12/1983.

I could wait for 37 years later and buy the currently worst ones that cost less than $100 and it's still much better than that $4,000 cell phone.

2) EPA boost via software seems to be only valid for EPA specifications: I got a 2018, 310 mile Model 3 Rear Wheel Drive Long Range. Tesla has increased that model to 330 miles as of today. However, I have not seen any mile increased in my own car throughout the past 2 years. The EPA spec still says 310 for 2018 model and it has not changed.


All good and fine but, this is how I see it:

4 Grands in a mobile phone it is not the same as 100 Grands in luxury sedan and, 3-6 months it’s not the same as 37 years..;)

Therefore...I do not see the announced car value appreciation in time happening here...rather a -15-20% hit!

Thanks for your view!
 
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ucmndd

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2016
6,318
11,760
California
Don’t buy luxury sedans if you’re sensitive to depreciation and resale value.

Ever.

Look, I feel your pain. It sucks when something new comes out not long after you buy. But there’s really absolutely nothing to be done about this and Tesla has no obligation to compensate you.

I’m not really sure what your question is, or what you’re looking for?
 
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Lorians

Member
Jan 22, 2020
31
9
Zürich
Don’t buy luxury sedans if you’re sensitive to depreciation and resale value.

Ever.

Look, I feel your pain. It sucks when something new comes out not long after you buy. But there’s really absolutely nothing to be done about this and Tesla has no obligation to compensate you.

I’m not really sure what your question is, or what you’re looking for?

Hi there!

Thank you a lot for your comments and appreciate the simpathy.

I am aware of the market dynamics here, which are part of the game - no issue.

Here we go:

When I switched from ICE same car level to EV I was not only attracted by the technological and environmental side of it but also to the priniciple of the appreciating asset vs. depreciating.

This, as far I as I undestood it, by means of additional features provided mostly free and possible future revenues generation on the so called robotaxi thing.

Meanwhile, after all that nice dream, I woke up here in Switzerland and figured out that our Raven LR with FSD bought in 10/19 is now superceeded as of 1/20 by LR Plus in North America which is cheaper and drives 40 miles more on a full charge (actually not yet sold in Europe).

This time to market gap between US&EU is also not good for me.

Now to the point, being that the range is king, given the few months window, I would expect that my car gets either:

1. A trade in offer on fair price/condition level with a Plus
2. An upgrade/retrofit to the same range configuration as I saw happening (360>391miles) OTA to some others happy owners!

The above is happening all the times on similar high value tech. assets and have not seen it here yet and Tesla in Europe has not given me any clue about it.

P.S: I lived in California for a few years and know that 40 miles is a just a short hop to the mall;)...therefore no big deal, but here it’s different.

Hope it gets more clear now and look forward to hear yours and other owners view and suggestions on this.

Cheers!
 

Battpower

Supporting Member
Oct 10, 2019
1,958
1,938
Uk
I know the same members have chewed this question before, but with its own thread, may be we can get a better understanding.

1) For me, it's not about value. My MS R LR is still the same car I bought originally, worth less because I bought it, and range claims for the newer LR+ of course look better than my car.

2) I like to try and understand stuff. It's hard, especially when you are up against $$$$$$$ ($$$....) smoke and mirrors created by marketing budget trying to sell its vision, product and message better than anyone else.

3) So far, other than maybe different gear design / material, I haven't heard a technology change that in itself makes significant change in efficiency. EM said it was many small changes over a period of time that meant the EPA range claim could be pushed further.

4) The real question (if you are not just concerned about depreciation - cuz if you are, too bad, it happens!) is what the real difference in EFFICIENCY is between LR and later LR+?

Indeed, is the efficiency mainly due to code & algorithim stuff (the did 'turn it on' by software), or was the change of displayed range no more than EPA agreeing to let Tesla display a higher range number (with no substantial actual change in range / efficiency)? We know that software changes can push the car's hardware closer to absolute max ratings (and beyond? cf overclocking) to scrape out a new marketing claim, but there is usually a price to pay in longevity, reliability or some other aspect. Drive shaft related vibration faults are likely due to components being pushed beyond what they can reliably handle but if it gets the acceleration numbers, it sells cars.

Look at it another way. We know only certain configurations (tyres / wheels) can get nearer to claimed max range and that testing is done under (almost) unrealistic over-optimized conditions. Yet some owners opt to spend more $$$ on wheel upgrades etc that actually reduces their car's real range / efficiency, presumeably because they have no potholes and rate looks over efficiency. Was it the new fugly trims on the wheels that pushed the over-optimized efficiency just enough to justify the new EPA range?

I feel that without some hard data from several LR and LR+ cars over a range of conditions we are unlikely to see the reality. Is there a step-change like when 85's get their max cell voltage capped and you see the battery data and range data show a definite correlated change? When that range number on the LR+'s (or when late LR got update to LR+) was there a real step in data, or just a change in the max range display?
 
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Battpower

Supporting Member
Oct 10, 2019
1,958
1,938
Uk
An upgrade/retrofit to the same range configuration as I saw happening (360>391miles) OTA to some others happy owners!

We need to hear evidence-supported data from these 'happy guys'. Remember, they will be happy any way because they just got a new car and still have the 'best'. But that won't last.

May be you could try putting a sticker saying 402 miles over the IC range display and see if it makes you feel any happier! ;) (before you splash out on a vehicle upgrade - the sticker option will save a lot of money and maybe make little difference to the real performance of your ride.)
 

Lorians

Member
Jan 22, 2020
31
9
Zürich
We need to hear evidence-supported data from these 'happy guys'. Remember, they will be happy any way because they just got a new car and still have the 'best'. But that won't last.

May be you could try putting a sticker saying 402 miles over the IC range display and see if it makes you feel any happier! ;) (before you splash out on a vehicle upgrade - the sticker option will save a lot of money and maybe make little difference to the real performance of your ride.)

...I’ll put a sticker on before putting the car for sale...maybe I’ll get a better deal!

Seriously...thank you a lot..this is now getting into the direction I like.

I call for the owners of ex LR which got an OTA LR Plus upgrade overnight to show here real change occured.

As far as I know...EM stated clearly incremental changes on weight, electrical pump insead of mechanical, wheels/tyres assembly and God knwos what else...leading to increased efficiency i.e. increased range.

In my eyes...it would be a great after sales approach to propose a retrofit kit and/or sw upgrade which Raven LR owners could install to bring a 2019 Raven LR to 2020 LR Plus configuration, but maybe am again dreaming of preserving asset value!
 
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Battpower

Supporting Member
Oct 10, 2019
1,958
1,938
Uk
Maintaining backward compatibility is almost impossible as a general rule, especially with obligation to test the whole car for regulations. Why would Tesla spend time and money they don't have to stop you 'needing' to buy the latest model?

Does your car still meet the (realistic) expectations at the time you bought it?

Would you feel better with LR+ if you could see Tesla's development workshop with new hyper-capacitor based energy storage that bumps performance and range to 450 miles+? Are you happy as long as you don't know about the next thing coming?

All that happens is you enjoy what you have less because of what's around the corner.

But I want to see real range evidence for LR+!
 

Battpower

Supporting Member
Oct 10, 2019
1,958
1,938
Uk
From a different thread:

Bought a lr raven a few months ago to replace The 75 I posted about earlier. Current wh per mile is 261 vs 268 for the 75. Still breaking in. I hope at around 10,000 miles it will improve like the 75 did. The over the road efficiency is still significantly worse than the 75. I don’t believe the raven range hype. Running at 70-75 the real world efficiency is 84% vs the 75 getting right at 100% of rated range.

This kind of post reminds that there is no guarantee of improvement, and only hard data shows the truth of what's going on.
 

Lorians

Member
Jan 22, 2020
31
9
Zürich
Maintaining backward compatibility is almost impossible as a general rule, especially with obligation to test the whole car for regulations. Why would Tesla spend time and money they don't have to stop you 'needing' to buy the latest model?

Does your car still meet the (realistic) expectations at the time you bought it?

Would you feel better with LR+ if you could see Tesla's development workshop with new hyper-capacitor based energy storage that bumps performance and range to 450 miles+? Are you happy as long as you don't know about the next thing coming?

All that happens is you enjoy what you have less because of what's around the corner.

But I want to see real range evidence for LR+!


to your questions:

Why would Tesla spend.....I tell you why: Raven MS is their flagship sedan model and limited/selected customer experience/fidelization/satisfaction is key, at least in my book.

Tesla MS is a totally different animal compared to a BMW 5/7 or Mercedes C/E class with which it shares only the same windows buttons and btw offer a next level customer service, but...let’s forget about this.

My car (2nd MS with FSD I own) meet and in some areas exceeds my expectations even though being high tech driven it leave me puzzled on FSD progress, Custome Service in Europe and now as to occurences like this one on the LR+ time to market. What’s your experience?

Let’s put it this way.

EM stated Tesla do not follow model year philosophy. Fine, but then Tesla should take care of customers at least in a 12 months timeframe to ensure they are not let down by sudden improvement which are granted or not to them with a logic I do not follow and applied first in the US only. This forum is a good live evidence of it.

Component obsolescence will play a key role in an high tech asset life cycle and this gives me some concerns. If EM believes what we bought its not a commodity, then he should show us how this is done.

What I miss here is a truly worldwide customer centric approach which you cannot fix only with an app or a cool website!

Your comments and thoughts are most welcome.

Cheers!
 
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Battpower

Supporting Member
Oct 10, 2019
1,958
1,938
Uk
it leave me puzzled on FSD progress,

Along with many people I think. Tesla are doing product development realtime in our cars for FSD, so I guess we get a different experience from buying a completed product.

on the LR+ time to market.

In the case of LR+, my opinion, they saw they could massage the numbers, tweak the car a little and claim a reward from the EPA in return. Remember EPA miles are pretty stretchy / flexible.

ensure they are not let down by sudden improvement

IMO, batterygate / capping is a real 'let down'. Theft of something you had paid for. So far, I see no hard evidence that Raven LR+ owners actually have anything much over LR version. The Raven math could be: Tesla testing predicts realistic 300 mile & EPA says = (maybe) 345 EPA Miles. Tesla discover 300 mile is actually nearer 315 in reality plus tweak and fiddle so 300 / 315 becomes 325 / 335 Tesla miles, and they guess EPA might allow 365 - 375 EPA Mile claim. Meanwhile, a couple of real changes like different gearbox components and pump design realise a small but real efficiency gain so now Tesla think they might be near 350 real mile with 380 / 390 EPA possible. The coup of scrambling past 400 first - big marketing shout - has them sticking wheel covers and a last round of tiny tweaks. Or something like that.

EM believes what we bought its not a commodity

He is dreaming. Of course its a commodity.

worldwide customer centric approach

Yes, Tesla doesn't have that under control (yet). But they have done a lot with cars and technology. And there is SOME good customer centric pockets, just not consistent. But every manufacturer needs to sell their new products so they need customers to think the new ones are better than the old regardless of reality. New car sales push / force used cars into the market, basically financed by the hit taken by the early / new buyers. Same everywhere.
 
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Tam

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
8,461
7,300
Visalia, CA
...3) So far, other than maybe different gear design / material, I haven't heard a technology change that in itself makes significant change in efficiency. EM said it was many small changes over a period of time that meant the EPA range claim could be pushed further...

Just to be clear, the new longer range plus Model S is not just about software but also hardware:

Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

1) Mass reduction: such as seat, battery pack, drive units.

2) Wheel & Tires: 2% improvement in range.

3) Drive Unit Efficiency: Switch from mechanical to electric oil pump: 2% improvement in range.

4) Regenerative Braking: "Hold" setting allows regen at lower speed and deceleration rate. Ok, this sounds like just software.
 
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Battpower

Supporting Member
Oct 10, 2019
1,958
1,938
Uk
1) Mass reduction: such as seat, battery pack, drive units.

2) Wheel & Tires: 2% improvement in range.

3) Drive Unit Efficiency: Switch from mechanical to electric oil pump: 2% improvement in range.

4) Regenerative Braking: "Hold" setting allows regen at lower speed and deceleration rate. Ok, this sounds like just software.

I am aware of these 'benefits', but am sceptical as to how much real benefit.

I am searching for info from real experts. This is my current understanding:

Point 1, mass. This has little benefit in normal driving. Mass effects acceleration and efficiency if you accelerate and brake hard, but not on a long drive, even if hilly. Tires will dissipate more heat through flexing with a heavier car, but I guess not much and you could compensate with higher tire pressure.

2) Yes, wheels and tires make a difference, but some owners don't seem to care about it and would rather have larger ones at the expense of efficiency.

3) Electric oil pump. I have trouble believing that the oil pump can account for a 2% real energy saving. Without knowing technical details, it's quite likely that heat generated in motors including mechanical pumps (on earlier R LR) is used to heat the battery avoiding use of battery heater making the electric pumps actually give rise to higher net energy use under some conditions. Any way its just 2% even if you take it as accurate.

4) Hold / regen / low speeds. This is all pretty low energy. Low speed = less energy to capture. The 2019 Raven regens right to virtually stationary. Bigger energy issue is regen being restricted so you use friction brakes at speed. Has this big energy issue been 'fixed' in LR+?

These are all pretty small energy benefits, and some could easily be put in place on the LR. We need to see some real range data for LR+ to answer this for sure.
 

BESLA

Member
Mar 12, 2020
50
21
Belgium
I have a 2020 MS LR (feb/march manufactured) European version with F type battery. The range shown on 100% charge is 580 kms ~ 361 miles.
The only diiference my LR and LR + is the wheels ... I have 19 inch slipstreams rather than tempest wheels. I am not sure if anyone in europe received this OTA update from tesla to increase range of recently produced LR to LR+. Infact their current range of 580 kms on 100% charge is even less than the advertised WLTP standard range on the website (610 kms)
 

Lorians

Member
Jan 22, 2020
31
9
Zürich
Good morning BESLA!

I’m glad you joined this discussion as what you have shared are basically the same key issues which are also affecting me here in Switzerland.

To be honest, in my case, I also own a LR delivered on 10/19 and has the exact same range as your car! I am not sure on the rest.

I have no knowledge of somebody in EU getting the OTA software upgrade which is being pushed on the US since a while. My understanding is that, if applicable, it would eventually give us up to 391 miles or 630 km. vs actual 580 km. at 100% and the still not visible 610 km WLTP, which we originally bought.

Btw..where are you located in Europe, if I may ask?

Thank you for the very useful feedback!

Cheers,
 

Battpower

Supporting Member
Oct 10, 2019
1,958
1,938
Uk
I have a 2020 MS LR (feb/march manufactured) European version with F type battery. The range shown on 100% charge is 580 kms ~ 361 miles.
The only diiference my LR and LR + is the wheels ... I have 19 inch slipstreams rather than tempest wheels. I am not sure if anyone in europe received this OTA update from tesla to increase range of recently produced LR to LR+. Infact their current range of 580 kms on 100% charge is even less than the advertised WLTP standard range on the website (610 kms)
This seems pretty normal for MS R LR. I have same figures. What matters though is your actual range which for LR could be nearer 330 or less. And long term average wh/mile. Mine is around 300wh/mile but on short runs it isn't comparable with long steady runs.
 

Lorians

Member
Jan 22, 2020
31
9
Zürich
Good morning BESLA!

I’m glad you joined this discussion as what you have shared are basically the same key issues which are also affecting me here in Switzerland.

To be honest, in my case, I also own a LR delivered on 10/19 and has the exact same range as your car! I am not sure on the rest.

I have no knowledge of somebody in EU getting the OTA software upgrade which is being pushed on the US since a while. My understanding is that, if applicable, it would eventually give us up to 391 miles or 630 km. vs actual 580 km. at 100% and the still not visible 610 km WLTP, which we originally bought.

Btw..where are you located in Europe, if I may ask?

Thank you for the very useful feedback!

Cheers,

Uups..just noticed you’re in Belgium...right?
 

Battpower

Supporting Member
Oct 10, 2019
1,958
1,938
Uk
It is important to keep reminding yourself (imo) that the range on ic diaplay is no more accurate than on any old ICE car that shows a manufacturer claimed range when you have just filled up.

It just displays a percentage of the claimed range, not really related to how far you could actually drive.
 

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