Rumour: Model 3/Y to lose stalks in 2023 model year

[MashinBenzin]

Somehow I can't imagine mainstream Model 3 and Y buyers putting up with the foolishness that Model S and X customers will. Model S and X buyers come from Beemer and Benz land so they are used to cutting edge stuff that doesn't work all that well. Model 3 and Y buyers come from Honda and Toyota. They expect things be easy to use, the seats comfortable, etc. This could be the solution to overpricing and long wait times though.

Coming from Beemer and Merc land, they’re used to cutting edge stuff that works well.

Coming into a Tesla, you simply have to forget stuff that was cutting edge was ever invented.

I’m coming from an LR and two prior BMWs, plus a Toyota on the drive. The MY probably has most of the things the 9 year old Toyota has, but in many ways seems archaic versus the LR. Of course, the drivetrain is absolutely not one of those ways.

 

[ZenRockGarden]

Coming from Beemer and Merc land, they’re used to cutting edge stuff that works well.

Coming into a Tesla, you simply have to forget stuff that was cutting edge was ever invented.

I’m coming from an LR and two prior BMWs, plus a Toyota on the drive. The MY probably has most of the things the 9 year old Toyota has, but in many ways seems archaic versus the LR. Of course, the drivetrain is absolutely not one of those ways.

I always liked the analogy that Teslas feel like a $100k drivetrain wrapped in a $30k car. It's not a perfect description, but it kinda fits.

The obsession over eliminating buttons and controls is... meh - sometimes they do it great, other times they're being like apple and making a slightly-worse UX purely in the name of trying to be "simple" and instead creating "awkward". The touch-strip at the top of the Macbook keyboard is a great example of making something worse in the name of eliminating buttons (and Apple has recently started getting rid of it, which should be natures way of telling you that was a bad design choice)

 

[MashinBenzin]

I always liked the analogy that Teslas feel like a $100k drivetrain wrapped in a $30k car. It's not a perfect description, but it kinda fits.

The obsession over eliminating buttons and controls is... meh - sometimes they do it great, other times they're being like apple and making a slightly-worse UX purely in the name of trying to be "simple" and instead creating "awkward". The touch-strip at the top of the Macbook keyboard is a great example of making something worse in the name of eliminating buttons (and Apple has recently started getting rid of it, which should be natures way of telling you that was a bad design choice)

Pretty accurate that. I came reasonably close to buying a Model X in 2018/19. It was £90k here by that time and I just could not reconcile that against what a LR/BMW SUV offered for the same price - plus the sunk engineering cost of the silly doors. The MY is a much better compromise for my money.

 

[MrT3]

Aren't the stalks from Mercedes?

On the older Model S yes, Model 3 has Tesla designed switchgear.

 

[MrT3]

Lexus is getting the Yoke too

The difference is it is an optional yoke.

 

[Durzel]

Somehow I can't imagine mainstream Model 3 and Y buyers putting up with the foolishness that Model S and X customers will. Model S and X buyers come from Beemer and Benz land so they are used to cutting edge stuff that doesn't work all that well. Model 3 and Y buyers come from Honda and Toyota. They expect things be easy to use, the seats comfortable, etc. This could be the solution to overpricing and long wait times though.

Unless I’m an idiot it sounds like you’re making the opposite point to the one you started with?

I can’t imagine S/X owners paying £100k to be as tolerant of missing or completely broken driver convenience features as 3/Y owners. Aren’t Mercedes S-class, Audi A8, BMW 7-series etc very well appointed in terms of tech?

I’d also suggest that nowadays your Toyotas, Vauxhalls, etc are probably not bad tech wise. I know, for example, that the Corsa-E had working matrix headlights. I suspect all of them that are half the price of the 3/Y have working auto headlights and wipers.

Suggesting that 3/Y owners are more tolerant of their cars being basic doesn’t really square when they start at £50k. £50k buys you some pretty impressive competition, and the people buying 3/Ys will be coming from the likes of premium Audi and BMW cars.

 

[MashinBenzin]

A short list of missing tech that springs to mind, all of which I’d have on a premium brand car and most of which comes on a Kia/Hyundai EV.

HUD
Multi adjustable seats (my LR was 18-way iirc)
360 surround cameras
Cooled seats
Instrument panel
Matrix headlights
CarPlay/android auto
Radar and sensor based driver assistance tech, wipers, lights

There are some very desirable things about a Tesla, which is why I am buying one and hoping to enjoy it. But it’s laughable to claim it’s at the technical pinnacle beyond the drivetrain and equally laughable to see it as a premium quality car.

Most of what’s different about a Tesla interior is about cost saving, pure and simple. Same principle as a Dacia (a brand I respect, that’s not a slur).

 

[MrBadger]

Suggesting that 3/Y owners are more tolerant of their cars being basic doesn’t really square when they start at £50k. £50k buys you some pretty impressive competition, and the people buying 3/Ys will be coming from the likes of premium Audi and BMW cars.

Easy to overlook that £15k of that £50k is for the battery. So its probably closer to a £35k car. We are not quite there yet with dealers selling an ICE with a £15k full tank of petrol.

So yep I would agree, its not a premium quality car, even if the price suggests otherwise.

 

[Durzel]

Easy to overlook that £15k of that £50k is for the battery. So its probably closer to a £35k car. We are not quite there yet with dealers selling an ICE with a £15k full tank of petrol.

So yep I would agree, its not a premium quality car, even if the price suggests otherwise.

Ehh I agree to a point. If you look at other EVs in that price range though they somehow manage to sell similar size or bigger batteries whilst still having a level of refinement commensurate with the price tag.

If anything the fact Tesla makes their own batteries ought to mean that they have more wiggle room in each car. As it is, and has been reported recently, Tesla have a massive profit margin per car, circa 28%, so it seems clear that their priorities lie with company growth and shareholder ROI than customers.

That being said, it doesn't seem to be hurting their sales - yet - so it's obviously the right choice from a purely shareholder value perspective.

 

[GRiLLA]

A short list of missing tech that springs to mind, all of which I’d have on a premium brand car and most of which comes on a Kia/Hyundai EV.

HUD
Multi adjustable seats (my LR was 18-way iirc)
360 surround cameras
Cooled seats
Instrument panel
Matrix headlights
CarPlay/android auto
Radar and sensor based driver assistance tech, wipers, lights

There are some very desirable things about a Tesla, which is why I am buying one and hoping to enjoy it. But it’s laughable to claim it’s at the technical pinnacle beyond the drivetrain and equally laughable to see it as a premium quality car.

Most of what’s different about a Tesla interior is about cost saving, pure and simple. Same principle as a Dacia (a brand I respect, that’s not a slur).

Tesla are not building a car with driver assistance features, their aim is to reach an autonomous car, that influences lots of their decisions. It's a common theme that the features claim is missing are generally features that would either not help or even harm their aim to build an autonomous car.

Hud/360 camera/Instrument Panel are all things to help a human driver, so not top priority
Legacy sensors like radar, IR rain detectors that need human calibration are working against their goal (I wonder if Matrix headlights also make it unnecessarily confusing for the AI)
Carplay/AndroidAuto would probably also be in that legacy mindset, it's not a lack of technical ability that means they aren't included.

 

[Durzel]

This is all great but the practical reality is that owners have to drive their cars from A to B.

I don't think it's reasonable to suggest that owners should have to put up with a demonstrably poorer quality of life driving Teslas compared to other brands, due to all of these missing or broken convenience features, and to just "put your trust in the vision" for the next 5-10 years before it actually comes close to being a reality. That could easily be 2 or more PCP/lease cycles for most customers.

You could just as easily say that you shouldn't buy a Tesla but just invest in TSLA instead, and accept that the cars themselves are "early access".

 

[MashinBenzin]

Tesla are not building a car with driver assistance features, their aim is to reach an autonomous car, that influences lots of their decisions. It's a common theme that the features claim is missing are generally features that would either not help or even harm their aim to build an autonomous car.

Hud/360 camera/Instrument Panel are all things to help a human driver, so not top priority
Legacy sensors like radar, IR rain detectors that need human calibration are working against their goal (I wonder if Matrix headlights also make it unnecessarily confusing for the AI)
Carplay/AndroidAuto would probably also be in that legacy mindset, it's not a lack of technical ability that means they aren't included.

Legacy sensors let me just get onto my mates in MoD procurement and tell them where they can make some mighty savings.

The matrix headlights - why change to them then, there are perfectly good non-matrix lights out there. It must be because they intend implementing them in future software.

CarPlay/android auto is not a technical limitation, I agree, but that’s simply commercial and not benefitting a rival’s ecosystem.

I don’t buy that they are not doing these things for autonomy’s sake, apart from the point that they can drive higher profit margins with a low tech approach and use that money to fund the dubious autonomy dream.

 

[GRiLLA]

The matrix headlights - why change to them then, there are perfectly good non-matrix lights out there. It must be because they intend implementing them in future software.

They are called the Global Headlamp, they patented the design here WO2022026594 GLOBAL HEADLAMP

The idea is to streamline their supply chain by having a single design of lights that can be controlled by software to tailor them to the regulations of different countries around the world. As far as I can tell Tesla or Elon have never talked about them developing a Matrix capability, people are just assuming. Given how far ahead Elon tends to mention new features, and seems to stay quiet on this I'm not expecting to see it ever. It's a wild guess, but I can imagine that the matrix style road lighting may be less optimum for the AI than consistent lighting, but I've no idea.

Legacy sensors let me just get onto my mates in MoD procurement and tell them where they can make some mighty savings.

The IR rain detector is a good example, it works well but most cars have a manual callibration knob to adjust the sensitivity. For self driving to work the car would need to do that calibration itself, and if you are doing that then you may as well just set the wiper speed. Tesla have a different problem to address than manufacturers that are building driver aids not autonomy.

I don't really buy that these features missing are Tesla being 'cheap', sure they optimise their costs but the Model 3 has gone upmarket in plenty of other ways (my first Model 3 had a manual boot). There is certainly overconfidence and arrogance that their software solutions are competitive, the issues with autodipping headlights are a good example where their software simply isn't sufficently good.

 

[phonetele226]

A short list of missing tech that springs to mind, all of which I’d have on a premium brand car and most of which comes on a Kia/Hyundai EV.

HUD
Multi adjustable seats (my LR was 18-way iirc)
360 surround cameras
Cooled seats
Instrument panel
Matrix headlights
CarPlay/android auto
Radar and sensor based driver assistance tech, wipers, lights

There are some very desirable things about a Tesla, which is why I am buying one and hoping to enjoy it. But it’s laughable to claim it’s at the technical pinnacle beyond the drivetrain and equally laughable to see it as a premium quality car.

Most of what’s different about a Tesla interior is about cost saving, pure and simple. Same principle as a Dacia (a brand I respect, that’s not a slur).

Totally agree with you about cost cutting. Remove features and raise prices guarantees profitability. If you think about it Tesla can still remove features and try to dress it up as not needed. Hopefully they don’t read this.

-Move power window controls to screen
-Remove glove box door
-Make rear seats optional cost
-Move power seat controls to screen

The ultimate cost saver for their lowest priced models would be to remove the screen. Voice controls for all functions.

 

[Durzel]

Does the car really need 4 wheels? Or 2 headlights? Seems like overkill.

 

[MashinBenzin]

They are called the Global Headlamp, they patented the design here WO2022026594 GLOBAL HEADLAMP

The idea is to streamline their supply chain by having a single design of lights that can be controlled by software to tailor them to the regulations of different countries around the world. As far as I can tell Tesla or Elon have never talked about them developing a Matrix capability, people are just assuming. Given how far ahead Elon tends to mention new features, and seems to stay quiet on this I'm not expecting to see it ever. It's a wild guess, but I can imagine that the matrix style road lighting may be less optimum for the AI than consistent lighting, but I've no idea.


The IR rain detector is a good example, it works well but most cars have a manual callibration knob to adjust the sensitivity. For self driving to work the car would need to do that calibration itself, and if you are doing that then you may as well just set the wiper speed. Tesla have a different problem to address than manufacturers that are building driver aids not autonomy.

I don't really buy that these features missing are Tesla being 'cheap', sure they optimise their costs but the Model 3 has gone upmarket in plenty of other ways (my first Model 3 had a manual boot). There is certainly overconfidence and arrogance that their software solutions are competitive, the issues with autodipping headlights are a good example where their software simply isn't sufficently good.

That’s an interesting point on the headlights, I’d been assuming from everything I read that they would be used as matrix headlights. It does seem a shame not to code them (if they are technically capable) to operate now as other brands do. But not a biggie.

 

[Jason71]

That’s an interesting point on the headlights, I’d been assuming from everything I read that they would be used as matrix headlights. It does seem a shame not to code them (if they are technically capable) to operate now as other brands do. But not a biggie.

Matrix headlights were not legal in the US until February this year and we all know that Teslas software development me massively US centric.
Presumably other brands will start selling matrix in the US now but until they start to become mainstream there will not be any big pressure on Tesla to do anything.
Are we sure though that the current cars have the necessary sensor hardware to control them properly. Cameras don't work that well for wipers at night or or even for simple dipping do we think they will work any better for more complex matric LED control?

 

[Durzel]

Audi and co could just drop their systems straight in to cars sold over there now. Tesla are years behind that level of sophistication, so I don't really know what they could do unless they've been quietly developing it in the background for years.

And no - I'm not convinced the existing sensors/lights are capable of the sort of pixel lighting others are doing, nor do I have any confidence that Tesla could deliver it. My car evidently can't even recognise distant rear lights to turn off auto main beam, let alone the sort of discrete illumination other marques are capable of.

 

[GRiLLA]

Audi and co could just drop their systems straight in to cars sold over there now. Tesla are years behind that level of sophistication, so I don't really know what they could do unless they've been quietly developing it in the background for years.

And no - I'm not convinced the existing sensors/lights are capable of the sort of pixel lighting others are doing, nor do I have any confidence that Tesla could deliver it. My car evidently can't even recognise distant rear lights to turn off auto main beam, let alone the sort of discrete illumination other marques are capable of.

Having never had a car equipped with Matrix lights, but having been a car driving in front or towards Audi's with the feature I would say that it's not nearly accurate enough and creates significant distraction for me. Having the hedgerows in front of me illuminated from behind is uncomfortable, and there are distinct colour weirdness when you are just at the edge of a segment.

 

[Durzel]

Probably worth watching Bjorn's videos on headlights on YouTube, he has demoed several cars that give a clear indication of just how better these systems are. Even stuff at the Polestar 2 level (i.e. equivalent to Model 3) is pretty impressive.