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S85 resale valuations distorted by Tesla model coding protocol

Discussion in 'Model S: Ordering, Production, Delivery' started by George Parrott, Jan 7, 2015.

  1. George Parrott

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    Tesla S85 Owners expecting to Sell/Trade Soon….Be WARNED!


    As the owner of VIN 9649 Tesla Model S85 (NOT P85), I am getting my car advertised to sell prior to delivery of my P85D next month, and I have just discovered a MAJOR identification disaster that Tesla has inadvertently imposed upon us:


    Despite the clear implied separation of the 60kW, 85S kW and the P85 models on the Tesla order/sales pages of their website, it turns out that Tesla has coded the cars into ONLY 2 subdivisions: Base and P for product specification based on the actual VIN codes.


    This has the impact of merging all the 60kW cars with the 85S cars when ALL the internet websites are collecting and reporting “values” for the cars. This further means that all 85S cars are AVERAGED in value estimates with the $10,000 less original cars along with the less options potentially on those truly “Base” 60 kW models.


    YIKES ! When I click on my cars.Com sales website for my 85S, it produces a “value” report of about $25,000+ LESS than a P85 estimate produces when the original cost of the two cars similarly equipped was only about $12,000.


    Apparently ALL the internet sales listings use the same “two category” designation as speaking today directly to Tesla officials they say “the 85S is treated as an option” not a separate model, but the P85 is a separate model because it has so many feature differences.”


    OK, I understand that the P85 has hardware differences, but when YOU (Tesla) sold me (us) the 85S the sales website presented the 85S as a separate category from the 60; it was NOT a battery size option only as it was marketed/sold.


    The lack of a model distinction between the 60kW and 85S versions is producing low-ball valuations on EVERY marketing and listing and valuation website for the 85S. I am virtually certain this was not intended, but it IS what you have created and now that more and more of us are looking to “move up” to one or another version of the newest “D” series cars, you have put our backs against the wall in terms of getting honest and appropriate value for our initial Model S purchase.


    YIKES again ! Of course if you are reselling a 60kW you are all smiles ! 8 - (


    Fix it….yesterday, Please!
     
  2. PoweredByRain

    PoweredByRain Member

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    #2 PoweredByRain, Jan 7, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2015
    This is Tesla's problem how, exactly?

    Third party web sites are doing the valuation incorrectly - if you care about that, then talk to them!

    Furthermore: the battery upgrade IS exactly that. Here's a snippet of the quote I got for my car:

    x.jpg
     
  3. pgiralt

    pgiralt Active Member

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    Not sure I understand the issue. There is a digit in the VIN that tells you the size of the battery (and whether or not supercharging was enabled when the vehicle was purchased as well)
     
  4. Hodginator

    Hodginator Member

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  5. breser

    breser AutoPilot Nostradamus

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    For what it's worth Tesla considers the P just an option as well. This is important for instance when considering the resale value guarantee because you get less of a guarantee on the value of the options versus the base value of the car (which is just the base S60 value). There's actually no way to tell an S85 from an P85 based on the VIN. As others have already pointed out you can tell the difference between an S60 and an S85 though. Not that this is unusual, many cars have high cost options on them that cannot be identified from the VIN.

    I agree with posters above, this is a cars.com problem. Direct your complaints to them.
     
  6. pgiralt

    pgiralt Active Member

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    Looks like the VIN number decoding has changed over the years. On my 2013 VIN, there is a digit that tells you if the car is a 60, 85, or P85. Now there is no way to tell if it's P or non-P from the VIN - but you can certainly tell if it's 60 or 85, so not sure why cars.com would have a problem knowing this. Now all you can tell is whether it's single or dual motor and whether it's 60 or 85, but still no way to see if it's P or non-P.
     
  7. George Parrott

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    Nope. It is all set by Tesla as I noted. I have CONFIRMED this with Tesla directly. The VIN # coding set by Tesla denotes TWO models: P85 and Base. Tesla now recognizes this as a potential problem.
     
  8. pgiralt

    pgiralt Active Member

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    If your VIN is 9649, it is before mine and should have the same 2013 VIN number format. Is the 8th digit of your VIN an 'N'? That means "N = Base A/C Motor, Tier 7 Battery (81-90 kWh)"
     
  9. breser

    breser AutoPilot Nostradamus

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    No it isn't. Go here:
    MANUFACTURERS' INFORMATION DATABASE (MID) | National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)

    Put in 5YJ in the WMI field and hit "Start Search"

    Now the Part 565 Search results are all the filings Tesla has ever made about how their VIN is coded.

    If you don't feel like doing the above here are the results. The most recent version that was filed towards the end of 2103 and covers Model S vehicles starting roughly around 2014 and on:
    ftp://ftp.nhtsa.dot.gov/mfrmail/ORG9130.pdf

    There is also this older version that was filed in October of 2012 and covers Model S vehicles before that:
    ftp://ftp.nhtsa.dot.gov/mfrmail/ORG8047.pdf

    Both of those VIN codings only represent a single model. The older encoding would actually let you identify a S40, S60, S85, or P85 independently. As pgiralt correctly points out the newer one can distinguish between an S60 and an S85 but not an S85 or a P85. So neither of the two encodings fit what you're saying. Whoever you've talked to at Tesla was misinformed.
     
  10. gg_got_a_tesla

    gg_got_a_tesla Model S: VIN P65513, Model 3 Res Holder

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    No, breser, the first line in my MVPA shows otherwise. It's a different model.

    ImageUploadedByTapatalk1420689293.353338.jpg

    And, I think the OP's right. I was "pleasantly surprised" by the appraisal that I got when my S60 was totaled. It made sense when the appraiser discussed it in terms of the Base and Perf models; he did verify that I had a 60.
     
  11. George Parrott

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    Clearly this seems to be a quote directly from Tesla, who know how to treat their vehicles...Everybody else, according to EVEN Tesla's headquarters, are driven by Tesla's own vehicle coding which despite what some seem to be led to believe, only separates the Model S series into 2 divisions: 1. Base and 2. P85. Tesla totally acknowledges that this is what they have set up with their VIN codes for 2013 and beyond (to now as the 2015 codes are not yet known outside Tesla apparently). EVERY outside appraisal system (Edmunds, Cars.com, etc.) uses this 2 category system and thus assimilates the 60kw and 85S models into "BASE" designation.

    Not good for those of us with 85S vehicles when our buyers check "values" and find numbers reported at least $7000 under what the seller might be even low-ball asking. OTOH, compare getting values for a similar 2013 optioned 85S vs P85....The P85 will return numbers close to $20K more .....when it was only $12k more at original purchase. Then compare values for similar 60kW vs 85S cars....not pretty (IMHO of course, but the 60kW will be boosted by this assimilation protocol).
     
  12. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    I don't really see what the problem is. A car is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. People are definately willing to pay more for an 85kwh battery. Who cares what Tesla or some website classifies it as.
     
  13. breser

    breser AutoPilot Nostradamus

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    That's only happened recently and only on the P85D. As I recall not everyone had their MVPA show up like that, though the final ones may have been that way. However, I don't think that's relevant to the conversation since we're talking about the resale market. I don't think the P85D's are impacting the used market yet. The OP keeps mentioning VIN codes and there is no way to distinguish a P85D from an S85D in the current VIN coding.

    You keep saying that Tesla acknowledges this. Who exactly are you talking to at Tesla that's telling you this? I've found that when what a Tesla employee is telling you doesn't make sense it's probably because they're misinformed (and unfortunately this happens a lot).

    By Federal Law Tesla has to file the VIN coding they are using, I pointed you at those exact documents. I have an order in for a 2015 vehicle and I have my VIN. It still matches the most recent filling (if they changed it they'd have to use codes in positions that would not be ambiguous with the old coding). What you're saying doesn't match those documents. The only way you're making sense is if there's some other coding mechanism for cars that Tesla is using and the other systems are picking up on. But that again doesn't match what you're saying since you keep mentioning VINs.

    This of course does not mean that these sites aren't handling the cars this way. It just means that it doesn't makes sense if you're saying it's coming from the VIN.
     
  14. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    Are you talking about something other than VIN? As breser shows, the VIN number for 2012, has an 8th digit that shows all the configurations (including 40/60/85/P85). For 2013 afterwards, it changed to the 7th digit with H standing for high capacity battery, S for standard capacity, and 8th digit showing single or dual motor.

    If seems you are talking about something that has nothing to do with the actual VIN number, but actually a separate database. Otherwise you should be able to show an example of a digit in the VIN that distinguishes 60/85 vs P85 (but not 60 vs 85), which does not seem to exist.
     
  15. bonaire

    bonaire Active Member

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    The only way to fix it is to use option "delisting". Everything based on the 85 and then a negative option value to go down to an 60kWh battery.
    Or to use differing Vin #s (can't do historically) to indicate various levels of product. One interesting thing is a non-P model will have a lower base price and that influences insurance company involvement for payoffs in terms of full loss. Lower full loss payout due to the list of options on non-P cars, it seems. Don't crash a brand new MS without "supplemental" insurance to bring you to full replacement value.

    There are clearly "two" models. The MS60 with a limited mile warranty and an MS85 with an un-limited mile warranty (over 8-years). Those are clear distinctions worth recognizing as deeply as the Vin # designation.
     
  16. Johan

    Johan Took a TSLA bear test. Came back negative.

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    Word up!

    I could see the potential issue when it comes to appraisals or with regards to insure after a car is totaled for example, but when it comes to selling the car you have an asking price and/or an offer that can be accepted or declined.
     
  17. Gizmotoy

    Gizmotoy Active Member

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    Looks like they changed things with the P85D. Mine has the P85 listed as an option. Specifically, it says Model S ~ $70k, 85kWh Performance $20k, etc.
     
  18. breser

    breser AutoPilot Nostradamus

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    They did. It was discussed fairly extensively on some thread with respect to the P85D. As I recall different people had their vehicle configurations split up in different ways. I don't believe it was continued to be discussed to the point where I can say if they eventually updated all the P85D Vehicle Configurations to be this way.

    One thing I would find interesting is if people who got the P85D and have the resale value guarantee could say if the guaranteed value is calculated with the P price as the base or if it's still treated as an option. The paperwork on Tesla's site still says the base price is the S60 price and everything else is an option. But I think we all know how out of date Tesla's website can be.

    My general suspicion is that Tesla made the change to the P85D configuration to simplify it since so many things were included and it made the vehicle configuration very long. It may also have been to try and help owners with insurance valuations.
     

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