SAE vs CHAdeMO

[dpeilow]

IEC is a standards body. It's not electrical code and it's not the law unless it's adopted at a national level. For example, the Netherlands is pressing ahead with triple standard chargers (CCS, CHAdeMO and high power AC).


This is the map of CHAdeMO sites in Great Britain. I don't think this lot will be ripped out. Any talk of transitioning to what is currently a vapourware standard is, at the least, unhelpful for current investment which is now moving at a quick pace.

 

[Dave EV]

I don't think you understand how DC charging works. The roadster does not have a high voltage junction box. Unless someone redesigns a new PEM with a HV junction box, AND writes code to run that PEM, there will be no DC charging for roadsters. That is one expensive endeavor, since there were only 2500 cars produced.

Strong words there.

At a high level, the only difference between L1/L2 charging and DC charging is where the AC -> DC conversion takes place. With L1/L2, the AC/DC conversion is done on the car, with DC charging the AC/DC conversion is done off the car.

Yes, you need to build a HV junction box, with a high power DC contactor that you control. No, it is not going to be as expensive as trying to shoehorn a Model S drivetrain into a Roadster - never mind the reverse engineering of how to get the Model S drivetrain to talk with the Roadster dash. That's way more complicated than figuring out how to inject DC current directly into the car.

If you want to DC charge the car, you need to do the following things (greatly simplified):

1. Reverse engineer how the car decides how to limit DC power going into the battery. With most modern EVs, there is a CAN bus which communicates between the BMS and onboard charger - one of the messages typically is a maximum DC current value.
2. Tie into the HVDC lines at an appropriate location.

Now you have the ability to directly DC charge the battery and need to build the smarts around how to communicate with your DC charger of choice.

 

[stopcrazypp]

IEC is a standards body. It's not electrical code and it's not the law unless it's adopted at a national level.

That's me using loose terminology. Kevin is saying it's already part of the UK electrical code or will soon be.

For example, the Netherlands is pressing ahead with triple standard chargers (CCS, CHAdeMO and high power AC).

My reference to IEC 61851-1 only applies to adapters, so does not disallow building chargers with multiple connectors on them. But this is also not in conflict with the EU draft law which specifies a transition period starting now to 2018 where such dual standard (it's not triple standard since the high power AC uses the Mennekes connector and is part of the same standard as CCS) chargers are encouraged.

This is the map of CHAdeMO sites in Great Britain. I don't think this lot will be ripped out. Any talk of transitioning to what is currently a vapourware standard is, at the least, unhelpful for current investment which is now moving at a quick pace.

No one is calling for that to be ripped out. Even the previous EU commission guideline would have resulted in all chargers going forward to be CCS, with no suggestion of ripping out existing chargers. The recent draft law in the news would add a transition period where there would be dual connector chargers installed. CHAdeMO is happy with neither. They want their standard permanently included.

CCS is no longer vaporware given it has 2 public chargers on the ground in Germany. Again IEC 62196-3 will be out by December this year and CCS chargers can be sold all across the EU once that happens. Here in the US, the hold up is UL listing which is on track to be done by the end of the year (judging from history of CHAdeMO chargers). The protocol and charger hardware is exactly the same as the European version (only connector is different) so what happens here in terms of charger development applies to Europe too. The timing will match well with the i3 launch near the end of this year.

 

[qwk]

Very easy to type words on a MB on how to do it. What charge inlet would you use? You do realize that one cannot simply go into a service center and buy Model, S drivetrain parts right? Then there is the whole issue of how the off-the shelf 18650 laptop cells will react to DC charging. How much power is too much? You can't simply go off of the Model S firmware specs for a totally different cell.

If this as easy as you make it out to be, it would have been done already.

 

[dpeilow]

That's me using loose terminology. Kevin is saying it's already part of the UK electrical code or will soon be.

If Kevin says it, it must be right...

My reference to IEC 61851-1 only applies to adapters, so does not disallow building chargers with multiple connectors on them. But this is also not in conflict with the EU draft law which specifies a transition period starting now to 2018 where such dual standard

It's a proposed text, not a draft law. And the way the EU works is that if they create a directive it has to be enshrined in national law separately.

No electric car charger ban - Hall (Fiona Hall MEP)

(it's not triple standard since the high power AC uses the Mennekes connector and is part of the same standard as CCS)

The Type 2 (Mennekes) connector is separate to the CCS connector. You can't plug a CCS connector into a Renault Zoe and expect to get AC out of it. It requires a separate plug on the charger - hence triple standard.

CHAdeMO is happy with neither. They want their standard permanently included.

Quite right too. The CCS plug is a nuisance. The worst kind of "not invented here syndrome". CHAdeMO has made a considerable investment and has a head start of years. Europe is rapidly catching up with Japan for numbers on the ground. Only interests that wanted to knock investor confidence would force this to change.

 

[stopcrazypp]

If Kevin says it, it must be right...

Doesn't have to be, but I have no reason to doubt him esp. given he put in the effort to dig out a direct quote of the wording. Just like how NEC (our electrical code) is built on industry standards here, the claim that the electrical code of most EU countries are built on IEC makes sense to me. This is especially true given Tesla's decision to go with Type 2 (they wouldn't have to do that if that IEC requirement did not have some teeth). I could go dig through UK's electrical code, but I would rather not.

It's a proposed text, not a draft law. And the way the EU works is that if they create a directive it has to be enshrined in national law separately.

However it happens, eventually it trickle down to national law (again similar to my point above). That's why CHAdeMO is making such a big deal out of it. The link you give calls it "draft legislation" which seems to match with my phrasing ("draft law").

The Type 2 (Mennekes) connector is separate to the CCS connector. You can't plug a CCS connector into a Renault Zoe and expect to get AC out of it. It requires a separate plug on the charger - hence triple standard.

Same standard, different connector. The CCS connector is just Mennekes with two extra pins. You can plug a CCS connector to a CCS car and get AC out of it. If you had an extender (so the bottom part of the connector doesn't get in the way) you can also plug a CCS connector into a Zoe and get AC out of it using the exact same protocol as the existing Mennekes chargers use! The standard was designed to support that. Although, you are right the chargers most likely will have a different socket on the charger for AC (while the DC charging will be done via build-it connectors).

Quite right too. The CCS plug is a nuisance. The worst kind of "not invented here syndrome". CHAdeMO has made a considerable investment and has a head start of years. Europe is rapidly catching up with Japan for numbers on the ground. Only interests that wanted to knock investor confidence would force this to change.

A head start (esp one of only a couple years) does not really matter for infrastructure that's being planned on the decade scale (at minimum 5 years). Right now there's a good chance to pick one standard and that's probably what would give the most investor confidence. Dual connector stations are a workable band-aid for now (given the characteristics of DC chargers) but eventually we'll have to pick one.

What CHAdeMO really wants is to establish a defacto monopoly like they did in Japan. If they were not backed into a corner (with SAE announcing their decision not to include CHAdeMO in J1772 then shortly after another blow by the EU commission not including them in their charger infrastructure recommendations), they would not have opened up the standard and everyone would be at their mercy for licensing fees. I suspect that was the main issue that held up its adoption by other countries. They only fast tracked the move to an open standard when it was clear the US and EU will not adopt CHAdeMO just because it came first.

 

[renim]

Dual fast charger in the EU refers tends to refer fast charge AC + DC, ie Mennekes AC + Chademo (or Euro Combo).
For car manufacturers and car buyers and infrastructure operators, Mennekes type 2 and Euro Combo may be closely related but still very distinctly different.

Ie a Renault ZOE can't fit a Euro Combo plug and even with a hypothetical adapter the Euro Combo can't provide the 3 phase that ZOE requires for fast charge.
IE Euro Combo provides proximity, earth, control pilot and 2 pins for DC.
No matter how its adapted, that will not provide 3 phase AC to ZOE.

a GM Spark EV would do a little better, it can take 3-4kW from the 43kW fast charge AC Mennekes.
Thats close to ICEing the fast charge, charging point. That partly why both the Chinese and Japanese insisted on separate sockets for slow and fast charging.

The biggest competitor to both Euro Combo and Chademo are not each other, but AC Mennekes.

Until Euro Combo plug backers sell cars with the understanding that petrol is not needed, (ie Battery technology is sufficient) they will continue to fail to deploy/fund fast charging point themselves, their focus on lobbying and government support. Instead now Chademo is secured until start 2019 (long enough to entrench itself thoroughly, and what they called slow charging is now the normal charging. ie up to 22 kw cheap and easy AC Mennekes type 2.

At the end of the day, petrol bowers have regular, mid, premium, diesel.
Soft drink bowers have coke, pepsi, Dr Peppers etc
Euro fast chargers will have AC Mennekes, Chademo, Euro Combo

Tesla is well placed to take advantage of 22 kw cheap and easy AC Mennekes type 2.

 

[dpeilow]

Doesn't have to be, but I have no reason to doubt him esp. given he put in the effort to dig out a direct quote of the wording. Just like how NEC (our electrical code) is built on industry standards here, the claim that the electrical code of most EU countries are built on IEC makes sense to me. This is especially true given Tesla's decision to go with Type 2 (they wouldn't have to do that if that IEC requirement did not have some teeth). I could go dig through UK's electrical code, but I would rather not.

The standard allows no vehicle side adaptors to convert charging stations with tethered plugs. This means that they are unable to use CHAdeMO or CCS (Combo) rapid chargers due to their current design.

That leaves Tesla limited to using the hard wired AC Type rapid chargers here - but they have limited themselves to 22kW.

These AC rapid chargers can supply 43kW to the Renault Zoe, but Tesla have only seen fit to provide 22kW. That means the charge rate is not much better than the Roadster. Also, rumour has it that the Zoe is not selling well. It remains to be seen how long the AC standard will survive at highway sites.

The adopted standard here for medium power / "level 2" requires Type 2 on the EVSE side of the cable. What goes on the car is not fixed. Until now, high power / "level 3" has been left up to the market.


The IEC standards are just as applicable to the USA as anywhere else. Your national standard has chosen to ignore or not enforce this, as Tesla clearly use vehicle side adaptors.

However it happens, eventually it trickle down to national law (again similar to my point above). That's why CHAdeMO is making such a big deal out of it. The link you give calls it "draft legislation" which seems to match with my phrasing ("draft law").

They may be calling it draft legislation, but it will become a directive. National governments can choose whether and how much of this the enshrine in national law and if it makes commercial or political sense not to, then they may not. Nissan, Honda and Toyota are big players in the UK car industry and I am sure they will fight hard to keep CHAdeMO here at the very least.

Same standard, different connector. The CCS connector is just Mennekes with two extra pins. You can plug a CCS connector to a CCS car and get AC out of it. If you had an extender (so the bottom part of the connector doesn't get in the way) you can also plug a CCS connector into a Zoe and get AC out of it using the exact same protocol as the existing Mennekes chargers use! The standard was designed to support that. Although, you are right the chargers most likely will have a different socket on the charger for AC (while the DC charging will be done via build-it connectors).

Thanks. I have a copy of the standard. You cannot just plug in a CCS to an AC car because

1) The DC pins will jam on the housing and;
2) There are no AC pins.

There are already chargers in existence with 3 connectors.

A head start (esp one of only a couple years) does not really matter for infrastructure that's being planned on the decade scale (at minimum 5 years). Right now there's a good chance to pick one standard and that's probably what would give the most investor confidence. Dual connector stations are a workable band-aid for now (given the characteristics of DC chargers) but eventually we'll have to pick one.

We've got hardware going into the ground at a rate of knots and in some cases sites are on their second iteration as they have had to take out DC and replace them with AC/DC units. If that now has to happen again just to support CCS, I can see site operators saying enough is enough. This is extremely unhelpful for the developing EV ecosystem.

What CHAdeMO really wants is to establish a defacto monopoly like they did in Japan. If they were not backed into a corner (with SAE announcing their decision not to include CHAdeMO in J1772 then shortly after another blow by the EU commission not including them in their charger infrastructure recommendations), they would not have opened up the standard and everyone would be at their mercy for licensing fees. I suspect that was the main issue that held up its adoption by other countries. They only fast tracked the move to an open standard when it was clear the US and EU will not adopt CHAdeMO just because it came first.

At one point CHAdeMO had all the Japanese and most of the European manufacturers on board. Seems to be not invented here and lobbying on the part of the remainder. I've never heard a Leaf owner say "I really wish my car just had a single larger plug". Now we have a mess on our hands.

 

[scottf200]

It seems that a major problem with chademo is going to be the main car that uses it -- Nissan LEAF has no TMS and the battery is degrading faster than expected and there are even battery replacements that are going on in the hotter USA states.

People who even have the DCFC option on the LEAF are avoiding it because of heating up the battery and degrading it even faster!!

If the chademo does not succeed or slows way down then Nissan may have to look in the mirror if they want to blame someone, IMO.

This is from the Leaf Forum thread (first post)
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=13371

reformat with percentages based on 67 AH

76.72%    51.40    AH    48,918    miles, 91040 2011 LEAF (2yrs 1.5 months)
79.85%    53.50    AH    19,500    miles. Stanton 2011 LEAF
80.70%    54.07    AH    30,455    miles mwalsh 2011 LEAF (29.75 months)
81.64%    54.70    AH    28,310    miles HighDesert2011 LEAF (21 months) 79.31% capacity
82.43%    55.23    AH    32,745    miles ttweed 2011 LEAF (27 months) 83.36% capacity
84.63%    56.70    AH    24,000    miles Boomer23 2011 LEAF
84.70%    56.75    AH     6,800    miles vrwl 2011 LEAF (12 months) 84.7% capacity
85.97%    57.60    AH    21,000    miles opencar 2011 LEAF (2yrs) 86% capacity
86.27%    57.80    AH    34,704    miles LEAFer 2011 LEAF (2.5yrs) 87.26% capacity
86.27%    57.80    AH     5,918    miles rickbeckr 2011 LEAF (2.25yrs)
86.39%    57.88    AH    22,000    miles tbleakne 2011 LEAF (2yrs, 3wks) 87.36 capacity
86.57%    58.00    AH    19,500    miles. drees. 2011 LEAF (2yrs)
91.04%    61.00    AH     3,500    miles LEAFfan 2013 LEAF (3 months)
91.79%    61.50    AH     6,000    miles ELROY 2012 LEAF (8 months) 92.88% capacity
92.24%    61.80    AH    10,900    miles dp Colorado 2012 LEAF (1 1/2 yrs)
93.28%    62.50    AH     8,000    miles GregH 2012 LEAF (5 months)
95.51%    63.99    AH     1,400    miles lion 2013 LEAF (1 month) 98.15% capacity
98.54%    66.02    AH    13,000    miles WetEV 2012 LEAF (13 months) (Leaf Logger)
100.54%   67.36    AH     7,400    miles MarvG 2013 LEAF (4 months) 101.67% capacity
100.60%   67.40    AH     4,925    miles IraqiInvr 2013 LEAF (4 months) 101.67%

Nissan LEAF battery replacements in Phx, AZ. The good news for these "early adopters" is because of limited leases returns so far that they are likely getting brand new packs.
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:47 am http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=309418#p309418

I went to my Nissan dealership today ..The person in charge of getting Leafs fixed was on the phone with another Leaf owner who also loss the 4th bar ..When he got off the phone he looked @ me and said you just loss your 4th bar didn't you. YUP ...
He told me to bring the Leaf in next week and they will run a official test on it first that will last 2 days, after the test is over I pick up the car and they will order me a new battery, he made me very happy.. He said it takes at least a week for a new battery to arrive once it is ordered..
He said that currently there are 8 Leafs that are getting new batteries in the Phx. area, 2 @ my dealership..<snip>

 

[stopcrazypp]

Thanks. I have a copy of the standard. You cannot just plug in a CCS to an AC car because

1) The DC pins will jam on the housing and;
2) There are no AC pins.

I stand corrected on the European connector.

That picture is fairly outdated but it seems the production version of Combo connector on the the ABB Combo/Chademo/AC charger in Europe doesn't have AC pins also (perhaps because they don't want people hogging that connector to do AC charging), so you are correct in that regard:
http://www.plugincars.com/slowly-safely-combo-plug-coming-127067.html

There are some images floating around of version that would support single phase AC, but that version does not seem to be in use:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1622&d=1302894862
http://www.vattenfall.com/en/file/370x285_solid-battery_19354430.jpg

But on the US side, even a very early draft copy of the SAE DC standard shows there's automatic detection of an AC signal and that the connector can support both AC and DC supply. The connector has the AC pins present in the US version.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...1772-DC-(Combo)-Connector-Adapter-for-Model-S

 

[EVNow]

It seems that a major problem with chademo is going to be the main car that uses it -- Nissan LEAF has no TMS and the battery is degrading faster than expected and there are even battery replacements that are going on in the hotter USA states.

People who even have the DCFC option on the LEAF are avoiding it because of heating up the battery and degrading it even faster!!

If the chademo does not succeed or slows way down then Nissan may have to look in the mirror if they want to blame someone, IMO.

People shouldn't be buy a Leaf in a desert ! There was plenty of suggestion/recommendation that V1 Leafs should be leased - Those guys rolled a dice and lost. Hardly anyone buys a Leaf now - esp. in hot climates. They lease.

"People" have been happily using QC in Leaf. So, let us not generalize and misrepresent facts - just to score some cheap points.

 

[scottf200]

It seems that a major problem with chademo is going to be the main car that uses it -- Nissan LEAF has no TMS and the battery is degrading faster than expected and there are even battery replacements that are going on in the hotter USA states.

People who even have the DCFC option on the LEAF are avoiding it because of heating up the battery and degrading it even faster!!

If the chademo does not succeed or slows way down then Nissan may have to look in the mirror if they want to blame someone, IMO.

People shouldn't be buy a Leaf in a desert ! There was plenty of suggestion/recommendation that V1 Leafs should be leased - Those guys rolled a dice and lost. Hardly anyone buys a Leaf now - esp. in hot climates. They lease.

"People" have been happily using QC in Leaf. So, let us not generalize and misrepresent facts - just to score some cheap points.

I'm pointing out the elephant in the room. It is not going to help the entire EV movement putting ones head in the sand on this.
Not everyone wants to lease with never ending car "payments" or the new $100/month lifetime battery lease.
There are also serious battery degradation in non-deserts locations as you know from post on MNL.
People leasing and charging to 100% and/or QC'ing as much as their miles allow are going to turn in a "prematurely" degraded battery. As you have seen on MNL those previously leased LEAFs may turn up on unsuspecting buyers in other states and these buyers may not even know that the battery "capacity" gauge exist on the dash or been warned of the level/percentage of degradation. Lot of post and new owner threads on this.

 

[jkirkebo]

CHAdeMO compliant but not UL listed. Only the Yazaki one is explicitly UL listed, and if you dig in UL's directory also the Dyden one. The rest are irrelevant in the US because they aren't UL listed (likely Japan market only). It's also why you never see the other designs in the US. Same goes for CE rating in Europe.

I've seen the Sumitomo one in Norway. A much simpler and better design than the clunky Yazaki.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

This is the map of CHAdeMO sites in Great Britain. I don't think this lot will be ripped out.

I's a lovely map but as always the devil is in the detail...

large numbers of these chargers are located at Nissan dealers who will not allow third party cars to charge;

many are not 24/7 and behind locked gates to restrict access to 'business hours';

many are single chargers which compete with Leaf's for charging;

we are beginning to see excessive fees charged for the electricity;

and IMO most worryingly of all, no sustainable business model exists for maintain these chargers beyond the government financed installation (we already have several rapid chargers off line because the funding does not exist to repair them).

I hope Tesla invest all their effort in delivering SuperChargers and if necessary ignore CHAdeMO because the adhoc system in the UK does not work.

 

[jkirkebo]

People who even have the DCFC option on the LEAF are avoiding it because of heating up the battery and degrading it even faster!!

I don't think QCing the Leaf matters much for degradation, at least not in cooler climates. I've fast charged my Leaf a lot (up to 4 times in one day) the 21 months I've had it (closing in on 20.000 miles now) and have absolutely no degradation at all. Then again, I live in Norway where 75degF is considered a REALLY hot summer day...

BTW, I have one of those triple-standard CHAdeMO/CCS/AC43kW Efacec chargers close to me.

 

[scottf200]

ASIDE:

I don't think QCing the Leaf matters much for degradation, at least not in cooler climates. I've fast charged my Leaf a lot (up to 4 times in one day) the 21 months I've had it (closing in on 20.000 miles now) and have absolutely no degradation at all. Then again, I live in Norway where 75degF is considered a REALLY hot summer day...

BTW, I have one of those triple-standard CHAdeMO/CCS/AC43kW Efacec chargers close to me.

Let me understand this ... you have absolutely no degradation at all? Goes against quite a few scientific laws I think. There are some apps to measure this. Here is the most popular: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Leaf_Battery_Application

 

[GSP]

Obviously jkirkebo means no noticeable or measurable degradation.

The fact that there is some infinitesimal degradation for every hour of calander life and every mAh of throughput is not important until it starts to affect the customer.

GSP

 

[scottf200]

Obviously jkirkebo means no noticeable or measurable degradation. The fact that there is some infinitesimal degradation for every hour of calander life and every mAh of throughput is not important until it starts to affect the customer. GSP

'Absolutely' is a pretty strong word (as is 'infinitesimal') so that is why I pointed him to some software to help. If you visit Nissan Leaf Forum - Online forum for the Nissan Leaf Electric Car (MNL) for any length of time and see people from all areas of the USA they are seeing noticeable and measurable degradation. A several hunderd page thread on it. Their wiki page: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss

 

[scottf200]

Efacec Becomes First Company to Receive ETL Certfication for SAE Combo Charger

http://insideevs.com/efacec-becomes-first-company-to-receive-etl-certfication-for-sae-combo-charger/

UL, CSA, ETL and CE: Whats the Difference?

http://www.crownaudio.com/certifmarks.htm
The ETL Listed Mark is an alternative to the CSA and UL marks.

 

[stopcrazypp]

This also happens to be the first publicly operational SAE DC charger (plus dual connector charger).
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/08/30/sacramento-first-with-dc-fast-chargers-with-sae-combo-chademo/

So there goes that other claim against CCS. And it happens to be right where I need it (for an SF to Sacramento round trip). Looks like dual connector stations are the way forward (both US and EU).

Looking forward to when the other manufacturers get their's UL listed so NRG/eVgo can start installing their chargers in California. Should be possible to overtake CHAdeMO-only (at least the fully public ones, if not including dealer ones) if momentum can be maintained.