SAE vs CHAdeMO

[TonyWilliams]

Funny...It's got that Blink peek-a-boo design feature going on... Just so you can see what's behind it...

I was wrong... it's not a "public" charger, but at the GM technical center in Torrance. I thought the original post from "coolfilmmaker" indicated at Costco, but instead it is "near" Costco.

Yes, interesting how it seems to mimic an odd design feature.

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There's no official "public" SAE DC chargers until at least one of them are UL listed (legal/insurance issues with letting the public use chargers that are not UL listed ).

Point well taken, and it's not public anyway. It's at the GM design center.

 

[Bipo]

VW e-UP! spotted pluged into a... CHAdeMO!!

That makes no sense at all! The only answer is it's using an adapter, but I can't see it :/

Source: VW e-Up! laddar CHAdeMO i Göteborg | blixtgordon

Anyone has an answer to this??

 

[stopcrazypp]

VW e-UP! spotted pluged into a... CHAdeMO!!

That makes no sense at all! The only answer is it's using an adapter, but I can't see it :/

Source: VW e-Up! laddar CHAdeMO i Göteborg | blixtgordon

Anyone has an answer to this??

Most VW's early prototypes used CHADeMO. This includes the e-TRON, early versions of the e-golf (back when it was called the VW Golf Blue E-Motion). The e-UP! is pretty old (2009) so it's not a surprise it uses CHAdeMO.
http://myelifenow.blogspot.com/2012/07/audi-r8-e-tron-is-using-chademo-too.html

The first VW car with the combo plug is the 2014 e-golf.

 

[Bipo]

But the e-Up! was intended to use Combo2!

 

[stopcrazypp]

But the e-Up! was intended to use Combo2!

When the e-UP! came out (2009) there was no such thing as Combo, so this is impossible.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/15/eup-volkswagen-electric-c_n_286719.html

They may have changed strategy recently, but that does not mean the old prototypes have been converted to the Combo socket yet (or ever).

If you look at the front fog lamps, rear bumper, wheels, and rear "Up!" badging (without the "e" in front), it's pretty clear the car in the picture charging on CHAdeMO is the 2011 prototype model:
http://www.netcarshow.com/volkswagen/2011-e-up_concept/

The updated 2013 production model with the Combo socket has no front fog lamps, updated "e-UP!" badging, red rear reflectors on the rear bumper, different wheels, etc:
http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/v...with-93-mile-range-and-trick-charging-system/

 

[cwerdna]

Interesting this thread has gone over 2 months w/o any posts.

Any new word on J1772 CCS? BMW i3 won't be available in the US until Q2 2014. One has to wonder about the take rate on such a port, esp. when BMW is offering a REx engine, at an unknown price...

What about the availability date of J1772 CCS as an option on the Spark EV and other vehicles?

Meanwhile, it seems the Kia Soul EV will likely have CHAdeMO (2015 Kia Soul EV Spotted Testing In California, Testing Rapid Charge Technology | PluginCars.com).

 

[TonyWilliams]

Interesting this thread has gone over 2 months w/o any posts.

Any new word on J1772 CCS? BMW i3 won't be available in the US until Q2 2014. One has to wonder about the take rate on such a port, esp. when BMW is offering a REx engine, at an unknown price...

What about the availability date of J1772 CCS as an option on the Spark EV and other vehicles?

Meanwhile, it seems the Kia Soul EV will likely have CHAdeMO (2015 Kia Soul EV Spotted Testing In California, Testing Rapid Charge Technology | PluginCars.com).

No current Frankenplug is offered on any car in the USA (or the world, for that matter). GM is only selling the Spark EV in CARB-ZEV states of California and Oregon to meet their obligations (or they would have to buy credits to be allowed to keep selling millions of oil burners). There's always talk from GM of the Spark EV being more than merely a compliance car, but so far the rhetoric doesn't match reality.

The BMW i3 won't reach the USA until as late as July 1, 2014. It appears every press release mentions the gasoline range extender, and I have a feeling that will be their push over non-existent Frankenplug stations that they are mostly locked into.

It would be ugly for them to try and retofit CHAdeMO since they have made zero plans for it. On the other side, Nissan will shore up support with CHAdeMO worldwide with 70,000 cars on the road, and on track to be 100,000 by 2014.

The Frankenplug hopefuls won't hit those sales volume in their wildest dreams. Any of the other Frankenplug players, like VW and Daimler (Mercedes Benz), have very low capacity in mind looking to meet CARB-ZEV compliance for 2015-2017. VW has already announced CHAdeMO cars for Japan, and Tesla will have a CHAdeMO adaptor by year's end.

 

[FlasherZ]

Each time I read this thread, I think Betamax and VHS or Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD or GSM vs. CDMA. It's going to be based on your point of view as to whether you think CHAdeMO is the Betamax of this technology base or not. Come outside of WA/OR/CA in the US, there's very little adoption of either and there's a huge opportunity. The number of vehicles is in its infancy and so are the number of chargers. I'm not convinced at all the bar is high (much less too high).

Just MHO, of course.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Come outside of WA/OR/CA in the US, there's very little adoption of either and there's a huge opportunity.

Absolutely, it's a barren waste land in the "fly over states" for EV infrastructure in general. There's one problem for this "huge opportunity" area... they don't have EV's, and politically, they aren't likely to start buying them until it's a forgone conclusion that EV's are "normal" cars. The same was true of the hybrid cars.

So, GM / BMW could coat the streets with wall to wall Frankenplugs in the fly-over places, and they would collect dust. That leaves the actual areas where real live humans live who have already bought and will buy EV's. Those are located on the west coast mostly.

If I were GM or BMW, and I really wanted to make sure Frankenplug caught hold (and was willing to spend money to make that happen), I'd blanket the northeast USA and push the Spark EV there. Fertile ground. I'd also invite my new best buddies at BMW to help pay for it.

And, of course, bribe every politician I could find for the usual graft, saying, "US standard" a lot, and mentioning those "ferriners" from Japan (and overlooking the foreigners from Germany).

 

[GSP]

I wold not dismiss the quote "fly over states" so quickly. Isn't Texas the number two state for Model S sales? The Leaf is built in Tennessee, and they have a pretty good charging infrastructure. Check it out on PlugShare. There are plenty of other examples.

GSP

 

[FlasherZ]

Absolutely, it's a barren waste land in the "fly over states" for EV infrastructure in general. There's one problem for this "huge opportunity" area... they don't have EV's, and politically, they aren't likely to start buying them until it's a forgone conclusion that EV's are "normal" cars. The same was true of the hybrid cars.

Judging by the interest in my Model S, I don't think that's true and I would not be quick to dismiss the region. From a political standpoint, in my 8 months of ownership, I've only had 2 people really stretch with the political arguments. Most are enamored with the savings, the fact that across these flatlands

The issue with EV's has been range. I drive 25-30 miles to any store bigger than a small-town grocery store... the Leaf can't get us there and back, especially in the winter. The PHEV's don't give us much because electric range is anemic. CHAdeMO is just impractical because I'd have to charge 3-4 times a day with the errand runs you find here.

Perhaps we don't have the nutty environmentalists here, but I'd caution you to downplay the practicality of Tesla here.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... CHAdeMO is just impractical because I'd have to charge 3-4 times a day with the errand runs you find here.

Perhaps we don't have the nutty environmentalists here, but I'd caution you to downplay the practicality of Tesla here.

I have not said anything about the practicality of a 250-300 mile electric car like a Tesla anywhere in the world!!! Congrats on taking on a greater challenge than I have on the west coast!

I wouldn't be so keen to downplay CHAdeMO, though. I'd like to point out that first and foremost, there are lots of CHAdeMO stations, and will likely be far more than Superchargers for some time. Secondly, those stations are in areas where folks actually own and drive EV's. And finally, the CHAdeMO isn't going anywhere (nor is Supercharger).

I'll toss out that CHAdeMO has actually received UL / Intertek listings... Supercharger, eh, no so much. Also, CHAdeMO is spec'd for up to 100kW, of which 80kW could be available to Model S (400 volts * 200 amps). Many of the current stations are 62.5kW (125 amps), leaving 50kW for Model S (400 * 125).

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I wold not dismiss the quote "fly over states" so quickly. Isn't Texas the number two state for Model S sales? The Leaf is built in Tennessee, and they have a pretty good charging infrastructure. Check it out on PlugShare. There are plenty of other examples.

GSP

I'm well aware of the "fly-over state" exceptions. It's a vast wasteland, otherwise!! I grew up in Montana, and I can tell you without a doubt, that area (and North Dakota) will be DEAD LAST in adopting anything that isn't the same as yesterday. I don't think North Dakota has a SINGLE public charge station of any kind on PlugShare:

 

[gregincal]

I take the middle ground. I don't think Chademo is going anywhere, but I also don't think CCS is as doomed as Tony does. It's early days yet, and my guess is that 5 years from now we'll see a lot of stations that offer both. In addition I believe that there will be adaptors for both for the Tesla. As a Tesla owner, the big question is whether there will be any difference in price or size between the two adaptors.

In the meantime, since there currently aren't Chademo chargers I'm interesting in charging at, I can wait. I can understand the impatience where the facts are otherwise.

(edit: just to be clear, by "not going anywhere" I mean "not going away")

 

[scottf200]

Via: MNL walterbays Transportation: Charger standards fight confuses electric vehicle buyers, puts car company investments at risk -- Wednesday, July 24, 2013 -- www.eenews.net

Interesting quotes from Ford and Volkswagen:
* Jeanette Clute, manager of global electrification infrastructure strategy at Ford Motor Co.
* Waldemar Schweigert, who leads in electric drive technologies at Volkswagen

"It isn't as if there weren't benefits at the time for an early entry market for CHAdeMO to be there, but we are working in an open process where all global automakers are involved," said Jeanette Clute, manager of global electrification infrastructure strategy at Ford Motor Co.

Waldemar Schweigert, who leads in electric drive technologies at Volkswagen, added that the Combo standard will be able to deliver charge at 86 kilowatts, versus 50 kW for CHAdeMO, and recharge a battery in a shorter period of time than its competitor.

This was interesting too and could be interpreted as CHAdeMO realizes the situation they are in:

The CHAdeMO organization itself acknowledges that dual charging stations are the best route. "Many charger manufactures will be coming out this year with this dual charger and we are pleased to see that this will help service the full market," Kiho Ohga, a representative of the CHAdeMO Association, wrote in an email. "Whether it makes business sense to adopt both versus one is not a difficult decision to make by the investor."

I'm hoping for ease and simple compatibility to my Model X plug.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Interesting quotes from Ford and Volkswagen:
* Jeanette Clute, manager of global electrification infrastructure strategy at Ford Motor Co.
* Waldemar Schweigert, who leads in electric drive technologies at Volkswagen

This was interesting too and could be interpreted as CHAdeMO realizes the situation they are in:I'm hoping for ease and simple compatibility to my Model X plug.

CHAdeMO is wise in the steps they've been taking. First, they opened the standard (Aug 2012) and now are suggesting dual standard stations. That keeps tax dollars installing CHAdeMO instead of GM lobbying every government in the USA to stop funding "that inferior Jap plug" (as they have already publically tried, and no doubt continue secretly). It almost reminds me of the 1960's and 1970's... You remember, just before Japan ate GM's lunch, and continue to do so.

Of course, they are wrong with their constant ranting of "50kW limit" for CHAdeMO and super duper numbers for Frankenplug. Both are identically designed for 100kW (500v * 200a). Just the usual marketing lies. Actually, every Frankenplug car coming to market (Spark EV, i3, eGolf, B Class EV) are compliance cars for CARB-ZEV and will all have teeny tiny LEAF sized batteries and teeny tiny LEAF sized charge rates.

I'll bet the smaller batteries on i3 and Spark EV (compared to 70,000 sold LEAF) will charge at an even SLOWER speed than LEAF. I don't know the size of the eGolf battery, but I don't expect any surprises; small battery, just enough to claim 100 mile "fast refueling" credits, even though the car will really only go 70-80 miles like all the rest.

The Daimler / Mercedes Benz B Class EV is only a bit larger than LEAF, with 28kWh versus 24kWh. I'll bet they don't charge that over 48kW.

Nissan will make more LEAF's than every Frankenplug car COMBINED. So will Tesla. Then, other CHAdeMO compliance cars are coming, like Kia Soul EV.

The only manufacturers that don't have to meet CARB-ZEV in the USA (well, California) that are actually building an EV for the world because they want to is Tesla and Mitsubishi. The latter has sold more than 30,000 worldwide, all CHAdeMO. Their new SUV hybrid is also CHAdeMO. CHAdeMO is optional on 2013 ZERO motorcycles.

The largest manufacturer in the world is Toyota, and they are a CHAdeMO member. I don't expect them to be back in the EV game (after strict compliance car Rav4 EV ends 2014) until 2018 at the earliest (with hydrogen ZEV compliance through 2017), but the Frankenplug won't be on their cars. Actually, I could foresee Tesla Superchargers, though (with Daimler, too).

Still not so rosy for the plug that still has no cars. Big hat, no cattle, as they say in Texas.

 

[dsm363]

Of course, they are wrong with their constant ranting of "50kW limit" for CHAdeMO and super duper numbers for Frankenplug. Both are identically designed for 100kW (500v * 200a). Just the usual marketing lies. Actually, every Frankenplug car coming to market (Spark EV, i3, eGolf, B Class EV) are compliance cars for CARB-ZEV and will all have teeny tiny LEAF sized batteries and teeny tiny LEAF sized charge rates.

I'll bet the smaller batteries on i3 and Spark EV (compared to 70,000 sold LEAF) will charge at an even SLOWER speed than LEAF. I don't know the size of the eGolf battery, but I don't expect any surprises; small battery, just enough to claim 100 mile "fast refueling" credits, even though the car will really only go 70-80 miles like all the rest.

The Daimler / Mercedes Benz B Class EV is only a bit larger than LEAF, with 28kWh versus 24kWh. I'll bet they don't charge that over 48kW.

Nissan will make more LEAF's than every Frankenplug car COMBINED. So will Tesla. Then, other CHAdeMO compliance cars are coming, like Kia Soul EV.

The only manufacturers that don't have to meet CARB-ZEV in the USA (well, California) that are actually building an EV for the world because they want to is Tesla and Mitsubishi. The latter has sold more than 30,000 worldwide, all CHAdeMO. Their new SUV hybrid is also CHAdeMO. CHAdeMO is optional on 2013 ZERO motorcycles.

The largest manufacturer in the world is Toyota, and they are a CHAdeMO member. I don't expect them to be beck in the EV game until 2018 at the earliest (with hydrogen ZEV compliance through 2017), but the Frankenplug won't be on their cars. Actually, I could foresee Tesla Superchargers, though (with Daimler, too).

Still not so rosy for the plug with no cars.

You realize Nissan will have had a three year head start don't you? Things didn't look great for the Leaf before launch with hardly any CHAdeMO stations either.

 

[TonyWilliams]

You realize Nissan will have had a three year head start don't you? Things didn't look great for the Leaf before launch with hardly any CHAdeMO stations either.

One of many repeated retorts. Yes, I'm aware. If CHAdeMO wasn't already out there, I would probably support a Mennekes version of Frankenplug for worldwide. Right now, CHAdeMO is the ONLY worldwide common protocol. The same in Tokyo, Chicago, or Oslo.

You do realize that the EV landscape is COMPLETELY different for Frankenplug? When CHAdeMO rolled out, there was nothing. Governments threw big chunks of money to install these. Then, many years late to the game (more than three!!), a standard with precisely the same capabilities (ya, I know the doesn't match the GM shill) is proposed; who exactly is going to get excited to SPEND MONEY on this after just installing (and still installing) CHAdeMO?

Different game. No momentum. No cars. The cars planned are all extremely low volume, with the possible exception of BMW, however they are too expensive and so far, not exactly well received (see Motor Trend "mulligan" write up) to have a chance of meeting LEAF volume.

Good luck.

 

[Electroman]

Two parts to the equation : an EV and a DC charger. In the case of Leaf, the Leaf came first and then two years later the Chademo plugs.

In the case of Frankenplug, there is neither an EV that can use it, nor is there a DC plug - as far as you can see in the future. [Compliance cars dont count - lets make that very clear. Compliance models exist to give a bad name to EV's as a talking point that EVs are a failure.]

Given that the capabilities of both standards are pretty much not different, all that it has done is to muddy the waters, pushing the EV adoption even further. Why would GM, Ford and Toyota lobby for a different standard when they have nothing even in their drawing board that can use it ?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Given that the capabilities of both standards are pretty much not different, all that it has done is to muddy the waters, pushing the EV adoption even further. Why would GM, Ford and Toyota lobby for a different standard when they have nothing even in their drawing board that can use it ?

To be clear, Toyota is not in the Frankenplug camp. Ford, of course, has no DC car, or one publicaly planned. GM doesn't yet offer any DC charging in its Spark EV compliance car.

What is the first step in spotting a compliance car? It's a simple conversion of an existing, usually old, model of car. That's one of the simple reasons actually stated for Frankenplug; it can fit in the gasoline door! Awesome criteria.

Heck, my Rav4 EV isn't even built on a current model; it was discontinued in 2012. And, yep, the plug is in the gasoline door!!!

One more way to spot a compliance car; all the companies building or will be building them all petitioned EPA to stop enforcing CARB rules!!!

 

[Banahogg]

Of course, they are wrong with their constant ranting of "50kW limit" for CHAdeMO and super duper numbers for Frankenplug. Both are identically designed for 100kW (500v * 200a). Just the usual marketing lies. Actually, every Frankenplug car coming to market (Spark EV, i3, eGolf, B Class EV) are compliance cars for CARB-ZEV and will all have teeny tiny LEAF sized batteries and teeny tiny LEAF sized charge rates.

The Spark EV claims 20 minutes to 80% full, which is a charge rate of at most 16.8kw (depending on how much they reserve), so slower than a HPWC.

I'm a big fan of DC fast charging and always figured the more the merrier, but if this is what they're going to call "fast charging", I do worry that could be a step backwards.