FYI, I've seen nothing that says you can't claim 2 EV tax credits/year, assuming you buy 2 cars. In fact, form 8936 has 2 columns, for 2 EV's. For that matter, I haven't seen anything that says you can't file 2 8936's for 4 cars.
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No, the reality is that fact, which the OP admitted is a fact, is critical to disputing the OP's assertion that he was lied to.
The OP is upset because the months old demo inventory car he bought did not contain features that Tesla was just starting to add to brand new cars. Wow.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
The way you laid out that post, it looks like I posted all those quotes. For the record, I didn't. But thanks for making it look that way. Any particular reason you left out the attributions for the quotes that came after mine & then followed it by 'why would you even post that?' It feels deliberate.
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breser
AutoPilot Nostradamus
My fault for being lazy and just saying I didn't know who did it rather than just looking it up.
From most perspectives, the difference between an inventory car produced on June 1 and another produced September 1 is minimal, while the difference between September 1 and October 1 is substantial. On September 1, I would have taken an inventory car produced in the last year. On October 1, I would not have. That's the difference.
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I was attempting not to specifically call out the individuals, as I didn't want to embarrass them, or seem like I was attacking them. I went back and edited them in. I assumed it was clear from context that those were not your quotes, as obviously you and I wouldn't be discussing in the third person comments (and anyone who knows you wouldn't think you said such things), but I see where the confusion could occur. I added the attributions, although since they are unsubscribed, they won't actually see this thread. My attempt to establish some sort of civil discourse on the topic at hand has failed, (not helped by my bungling), so I'll not post anymore. Follow-up with a PM if there's something you want me to see.
Yes, but if the OP was relying on the salespeople to inform him if Tesla had made any significant changes since that inventory model was made - and if he reasonably asked and got answered wrong - then the situation becomes different and the onus is on Tesla/dealership to fix it.
This is so obvious I can't think of any other reason people fighting the notion than some level of unhealthy sympathy towards Tesla. Expecting the sales people to give correct information and fix the sale if they gave out wrong information on which is purchasing decision was made is basic stuff. We expect this from any consumer interaction. From any company. Heck, we expect it from any individual.
Now, if it turns out the sales people did give him correct information or the customer didn't reasonably ask etc., then of course that situation is different. It is impossible to infer that form the current public info either way.
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I agree the old subject was worse than the current one. But I opine that many people would have reacted so strongly even if he hadn't used the word lie. I think the response to the likes of breser and threads like first world problems and Elon people don't give up on us and plenty proof that the reaction has been very hostile towards people who have felt slighted by these events, even when no such accusations have been made. breser has gotten similar response and never made any accusations. I would personally appreciate it a lot if the forum itself took a firmer stand against attacks and belittling towards anyone. Currently I feel the sympathies are probably a little too skewered towards Tesla the company and not enough towards the user community as a whole. That of course is just my opinion.
Of course, we can't be sure the sales people didn't know about these changes. It isn't impossible someone lied, people just assume they didn't (I too assume they didn't) - and, well, of course that is probably the fairer point of view to take when no info is available to confirm it. When read the OP's entire message as a totality and not just a subject line, he also said they may have not known, even considered it likely, so I think if people jumped him on simply for one word, they weren't really reading him properly anyway.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
I totally agree it is impossible to reach any conclusion from the current public information.
But consider that people are fighting the notion of lying because people filter everything through their previous experience. I do it, you do it ... heck, even expert systems do it as the machines *learn*.
So what you see on much of the forum are the responses of people who have not been lied to by Tesla, who have been treated fairly, who have had reason met with reason. It's not rampant fanboyism. It's an earned response.
My experiences are different than yours. My responses are different than yours. And isn't it an interesting data point that those with the longest history (and therefore the most experience) with Tesla (ie, Roadster owners and Model S Signature owners) are the ones that are most likely to be accused of that "unhealthy sympathy towards Tesla". Also consider that that group of people didn't get to where they are in life by being fools.
Being associated with something for long can certainly skew anyone's perspective, though. I have been a very brand-loyal car person myself and it took me a while to snap out of that - and those were expensive German cars and I didn't get to own them by being a fool, I guess.
But I did become a fanboy in some ways, I think. Fresh perspectives from outsiders can sometimes be uninformed and bad, but of course at other times they can be fresh and warranted.Now, with all this criticism, I wish Tesla listens and improves so that I too can become and remain a total Tesla fanboy.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
I just really dislike the term 'fanboy' ... usually when people use it, they're dismissing everything the other person has to say, simply because it's positive. So I hope you never are accused of being that. Because it will mean someone has decided not to listen to what you have to say.
I just really dislike the term 'fanboy' ... usually when people use it, they're dismissing everything the other person has to say, simply because it's positive. So I hope you never are accused of being that. Because it will mean someone has decided not to listen to what you have to say.
I get what you mean. And it can certainly be used as a derogatory term. But of course it can also not be.
Following is not a reflection of you or anyone in particular, just my musings on this topic: Personally I think there is nothing wrong with opening your heart for some topic or matter or person or product in a child-like way. That, I think, is the positive side of being a fan - any gender
- and I think it is unfortunate people sometimes close their minds to that possibility in adult life. The responsible side of it all, of course, is not letting oneself be blinded by said fandom. That can be sometimes a bit hard if you start either associating yourself too much with the target of the fandom or the fandom limits your experiences so that you don't know of any better anymore. Sometimes fans take it almost as an insult towards themselves to see their idol criticized and that's where it often starts to get sour.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
I get what you mean. And it can certainly be used as a derogatory term. But of course it can also not be.
Following is not a reflection of you or anyone in particular, just my musings on this topic: Personally I think there is nothing wrong with opening your heart for some topic or matter or person or product in a child-like way. That, I think, is the positive side of being a fan - any gender
Nor should one ever fall into the trap of thinking that 'being critical of everything' is the same thing as 'critical thinking'.
The tricky part with what you've said here is that typically someone believes they are able to judge that the other person is 'merely a fan' and unable to apply critical thinking skills. It's one thing for a person to declare themselves a fan. It's another for someone to call them a 'fanboy'. One is with an open heart, the other is dismissive.
Deciding someone else is taking it as a personal insult because their idol has been criticized is ... well, where to start? There are a lot of assumptions there. Someone has to believe they are so much smarter than the other to judge those types of motivations and just dismiss any other possible cause. And of course that type of smugness would kill off any possibility of finding common ground, don't you think?
I am well aware of that, I was just pointing out that the inventory cars are sold as new since the post I quoted said they are sold as used.
I find accusing people of lying in a cavalier manner insulting.
Words are important, and they have specific meaning. This is particularly the case when one is accusing others of acting with malice, as the original title of this thread did.
Yet it was clear that the OP did not understand that definitively stating that he was lied to, and then subsequently allowing for the likelihood that in fact the other party was ignorant of developments, was a contradiction in his own statements.
We can only respond to the information provided, which was "Multiple salespeople assured me it was the current model." Yet his concern was about items that were added as part of an option to the current model. Thus, given the lack of precision in the title selection it's useful to make this distinction... because no, it's NOT clear that "everybody knows that" if we take the OP at his word.
That having been said, the conversation changes significantly: Was the OP assured that the current model he was buying also had all the current options he desired? Were there future options coming? Were there entirely new models coming? Was he assured there were not, or were the salesperson not aware of any?
It was not clear those questions were asked, or if so what the answers were.
Bottom line: if you are going to accuse people of malicious intent (lying), I prefer you have your facts in order. If not, don't be surprised of your premise and the details are questioned.
(Finally, for a guy who seems to object to other posts being "dismissive", your response that I pulled the above quote out of is about as dismissive as it gets)
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But the it was the current model in he ordering system and it had all the options he desired otherwise he would have waited until AWD or sensors were added. The factory probably let cars slip out two weeks early before the announcement so some people got a bonus but these were new production cars, not inventory. Again, he bought an inventory car so he was willing to accept a car that had miles on it for a discount with the features that were on the car. He wasn't forced to buy the car. If he has simply ordered a new car he probably would have gotten the sensors for free like all new orders around that time.
If you are replying to me, I agree with you.
The point I'm making is that he did get the current "model".
He's taking issue with options that may not even have been "available" on cars being ordered new, much less previous inventory vehicles.
breser
AutoPilot Nostradamus
For what it's worth there were loaners very soon after I picked up my car with sensors on them. There's a post somewhere where someone drove one with 30 miles on the odometer and with the new features. As far as I know they'll sell loaners if they match the build that someone wants. So it's entirely possible that someone could have bought an inventory car in the time frame that he bought it in with the new sensors.
Of course he wasn't forced to buy the car, nobody is saying that. But the problem is that Tesla has superior information and a reason to unload cars without the sensors. I am inclined to believe that the sales people didn't know but they should have. Tesla gained something in his case because I'm sure any inventory cars without the new sensors will have to be discounted.
Repeatedly people have said that Tesla needs to avoid the Osborne effect. I get that. I think there has to be a way to do something about these situations without destroying your sales. I find it really hard to reconcile the idea that Tesla does it better than dealers with the idea that Tesla needs to keep major new changes that are about to be standard on all cars secret until after they are already being delivered. That customers who just miss a breakpoint like this should pay the same for their cars that clearly provide less value. But suddenly, once Tesla has decided to announce the feature (at their covenience) customers are going to be able to ask for that discount and that the other customers who didn't have the opportunity weren't treated poorly. This just feels like a very sleezy move, even if it is driven by fear of orders drying up.
Some kind of trade in program might work. People within two week window maybe and those cars could be turned into loaner cars but they'd lose the tax break if Tesla tried to sell them later. People at 15 days would be pissed. I really don't see a good way for Tesla to handle this.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
I don't think so.. there's a three month minimum before a demo car can be sold as an inventory car. The policy changed last year because people were buying up barely used "demo" cars for the discount, and they were practially new cars, and at the same time, leaving the retail chain with very few cars to actually demo. So since last year (right around the time I bought my inventory car), they released a policy that said that all inventory cars have to be "on the ground" at least three months before being eligible for inventory program. I don't see why Tesla would make an exception to this policy just because someone wants the same config as a demo car, and even then, newer demo cars most likely aren't even listed in the inventory program until they are eligible.
So while it's possible that some demo cars had the sensors in September, I do not believe that anyone could have bought one as an inventory car in September.
breser
AutoPilot Nostradamus
Okay that makes sense. Thanks for the correction.
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Probably just put them in the CPO program. They could use this to seed the CPO program and help avoid it being filled with nothing but P85s come December (which seems to be what the market is flooded with from people trying to upgrade to Ds). But I agree, even that seems difficult due to the price reduction they'd be looking at giving on reselling those vehicles.
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